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Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?

155.138.254.99
Posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:02:34
icho
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Location: Michigan
Joined: February 6, 2015
 Well, I do not know much about how they are made, but if you look at components used internally, especially in SUTs, not much are in there compared to amps or preamps. But their prices seem to be too much and are sky rocketing.
$1000 phono preamps or $500 SUTs are pretty common and they are not even at the high ends. They have to be at least double the price to be considered high end in high end audio community.
Are phono preamps or SUTs are so hard to make, or are the components used are so expensive?
Well, when it comes to phono stylus, it becomes much worse. If an average cartridge lasts up to 2000 hours of play time, $1000 cartridge may last only 6 years if you listen to 1 hours of music everyday. Why should that small piece be so expensive?
ilhyung

 

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It is the cost of running a company, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:27:24
vinyl1
Audiophile

Posts: 3948
Joined: October 3, 2001
 If you just bought the parts and put them together in your garage to make one for yourself, the cost would not be very high.

But if you want to go into manufacturing, you need employees, or at least an assistant, a bigger place to work, reliable suppliers, insurance, business cards, a web site, a room in an audio show to demo your product, etc, etc. It all adds up.

Many hobbyists who decide to take a stab at it under-price their product, because they don't realize the costs involved. They usually run through their start-up capital pretty quickly.

 

RE: It is the cost of running a company, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:49:07
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Thats a bussiness answere it could be plugged into any pc of audio.
I appreciate the question but with all due respect you didnt get a answere I am sure there is a reason that goes beyound how to do bussiness.
Keep diggin and you will find out what you want to know. I do appreciate the question.

 

Because the 1% are the only ones with money to spend -- nt, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:57:56
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003

 

"They have to be at least double the price..., posted on April 14, 2015 at 14:52:28
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 1294
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
 to be considered high end in high end audio community"

Where'd you get that idea? Who decides what's high end and what isn't? Who cares?

I think you're asking a good question but labels and categories can sometimes be misleading.

 

Am i missing something?, posted on April 14, 2015 at 15:18:13
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 You can get a decent preamp for under $200 that will do bot MM and MC. You want something better you need to pay. One can get a decent MM cart for $300 or so. want something better, pay. it is just capitalism. Supply demand. No point complaining about prices.


dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 14, 2015 at 15:33:58
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 Some thoughts:

Making a phono stage is hard because there is lots of amplification, and it starts with a very low-level signal, i.e. lots closer to the noise floor than a line-level signal. Amplifying that tiny signal without amplifying the noise isn't that easy.

Transformers are hard to make, period. Art meets science inside those things.

Making a stylus is hard because it's such a tiny, precision device, and a low-volume device as well.

On top of those are the costs common to making anything: the cost of designing and prototyping, then tooling manufacturing to make it, buying and carrying parts/component inventory to make and service the thing, the cost of getting the word out to dealers and customers, setting up distribution, and setting up support. And employees to do the manufacturing and support, and a facility for them to do it in. Put that all together and you have a risky, capital-intensive proposition. There is lots of money to be made, but there is also lots of money that can be lost.

Some manufacturers target the top of the market, the "sophisticated toys" segment, with lots more spent on look and feel, as well as (hopefully) the stuff inside the box. The more exotic the piece, the lower the volume, so they may have to build in higher margins to get dealers to carry it, and higher margins for themselves to get their investment back and make a profit.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

Ebay is your friend!, posted on April 14, 2015 at 15:52:01
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004

$50.00 ea and good sounding. At 1:51.7(~208 ohms), and 1:30 (~52 ohms), a cart with 0.2 mV to 0.6 mV should be good. Link below.

Another one is UTC A-39.

 

+1, posted on April 14, 2015 at 16:03:34
vinyl survivor
Audiophile

Posts: 1471
Location: Southeastern US
Joined: November 28, 2007
 Beyer Dynamic makes a great transformer.

 

FWIW, as I forgot to add, I own one and can vouch for it., posted on April 14, 2015 at 16:12:43
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004

It is the one on the same shelf as the red piggy(on its right) with block metal box and the two portruding silver cylinders.

 

And why is an Aston Martin so expensive - when you can buy a new (Chinese-made) car for ..., posted on April 14, 2015 at 18:36:18
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 probably 1/50th of its price?

I'm a 'garage producer' (rather than a commercial mfr) and I sell an SLA-powered, JFET-based phono stage for around 1,000 of your dollars. There's about $600 worth of parts inside - nearly half of this comes just from the 2 output coupling capacitors. (And BTW, if there was $600 worth of parts in a commercial product, it would likely sell for at least $3K!)

Sure, I could use $5 capacitors ... but then this phono stage wouldn't sound as good! :-)) So parts cost is certainly one reason why phono stages and SUTs cost what you consider to be a lot of money. (Silver wire, for expensive SUTs.)


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: It is the cost of running a company, posted on April 15, 2015 at 05:24:50
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Some things are worth the money they are made well of course but they have to make you want it or its useless. I have heard expensive audio sound like garbage and I have listened to what is supposed to sound like garbage knock me out. I hate the game part of audio (too bad I know) but I love when I kick back and all is in line and the music sounds just right. Attitude helps a lot. Then there are people who just hear differant a pocket transistor radio will do them just fine. I like the middle myself.
Not a million but more then a buck and a half.

 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 15, 2015 at 08:08:42
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 If someone is willing to spend a million dollars on a phono stage, someone else will make one. There is something called a price-to-performance-ratio which is worth paying attention to in audio as elsewhere. There will be some price point for a given component where you get the best sound for the money. After that, you typically have to pay much more for rather marginal improvements. For those who have the money to spare, these improvements may be "worth it". It is certainly also the case that for some people, status and bragging rights are in play and being able to say you own the most expensive item on the planet is "worth it".
I can't afford to spend $100,000 on a pair of speakers, so whether or not they are for sale is of absolutely no concern to me. And if someone buys a pair of $100,000 speakers, they will likely sell for $60-50,000 a few years later as used components.
I don't think the cost of these very expensive goods will be found in adding up the cost of components. As others have commented, the costs of making anything include many factors--R&D, factories, energy, labor costs, advertising, marketing, shipping, etc., etc.
I am sure you could find a new, listenable phono stage for a few hundred dollars if you want one.
The used market is full of older components, in this case, many used preamps with phono stages that are quite good.
Listen, choose carefully, and you will achieve a good-sounding system within your budget.

Enjoy your music!

George

 

The component cost for my Cornet 2 was..., posted on April 15, 2015 at 11:00:46
ColoKurt
Audiophile

Posts: 93
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Joined: August 16, 2010
 ...almost $600 not including the circuit board so components are expensive. Of course, things are cheaper when you buy in bulk.

 

RE: +2, posted on April 15, 2015 at 14:50:13
user510
 I used a pair of the pictured BD trannies on one sut box project a couple of years ago.

link to my project page below.

SQ was good. Costs were low.

 

RE: +2, posted on April 15, 2015 at 15:11:16
Sidewinder
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: April 13, 2001
 Your SUT build is very nice. Do you have a wiring schematic of your SUT to share?
Regard,
David

 

RE: yes, posted on April 15, 2015 at 16:59:53
user510
 "Your SUT build is very nice. Do you have a wiring schematic of your SUT to share?"

yes, there is a schematic shown on the page linked.

-Steve

 

RE: +2, posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:09:52
Sidewinder
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: April 13, 2001

Thanks for the reply. Is this the one? If so, can you tell me how to wire up the primary windings to the two sets of rca jacks? I am stumped.
Regards,
David

 

Never mind. But.., posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:28:17
Sidewinder
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: April 13, 2001
 I figured it out But how did you configure your ground? Did you connect the negative terminals of input and output RCAs and what is connected to your ground post?
Thanks again,
David

 

RE: +2, posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:39:01
user510
 it's all I had to go with.


Red / Green are one primary

White / Black are other primary.

Brown is common ground.

I forget which was the 200 ohms and which was the 50 ohms. Use a multimeter to identify.

if you want to convert the ohms ratios into turns ratios see paragraph below.

"Often times step up transformers are labeled according to their impedance ratio rather than their step up ratio. To convert back to voltage ratio take the square root of the impedance ratio. Example, the above illustration shows an impedance ratio of 37.5/47K. Divide 37.5 into 47K then square root the dividend. 47K/37.5=1253.3, sqrt 1253.3=35.4 volts The turns ratio is 1:35.4"

The above paragraph is for example purposes and not specific to the Bd trannies in this thread...but can be used to figure that the turns ratios on the Bd trannies are 1:15 and 1:30.

-Steve

 

My recollection, posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:41:04
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 Steve,
I totally agree with your right up describing the performance of the transformers. I made my comparison many years ago but I wrote on my notes what I thought was my evaluation at the time. I think the BD transformers and the Wright Sound WPP-100C (I too have one) are superb match. I have tried 4 phono stages using the BD's and although all sounds fine, to me, the WPP100C is a little more better in terms of a little sweeter on the mids for me and as you said, gives an extra "oomph" to the bass(maybe because it is more emphasize as the trafo Freq Response is only about 15kHz). Carts are Shelter 901,Koetsu Rosewood, Denon 103/103R's, and BenzAce mid.

Phonostage I have tried:
!.) Hybrid FET input 6922 output.
2.) Modified Cornet 2
3.) Classic RCA circuit phonostage (6SL7's)
4.) Hagerman Trumpet

 

RE: Never mind. But.., posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:58:25
user510
 It's not like I'm selling a kit for doing this.
I used the schematic supplied by the seller of the trannies I bought. it worked fine.

Give it some more thought and it should come to you.

-Steve

 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 15, 2015 at 18:02:03
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 The end result will never justify the expense one has to pay for this stuff. In other words nothing out there is worth what they are selling for. Nothing! If $200 is being asked for something chances are in reality it's worth less than $100. But on the other hand, unless you can build it yourself you have to pay what is necessary to get what you want.

Now the next question is:

Is high end in audio high priced or high quality sound?

You can pay mucho dollars for something and get garbage and you can pay less and get great results. But that's not to say if you pay mucho it won't be mucho but it will never be at the league of what is being paid to get it.

 

RE: Never mind. But.., posted on April 15, 2015 at 18:40:10
Sidewinder
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: April 13, 2001
 I'm sorry to be bothersome. I've seen various schematics with differing grounding schemes. I've seen schematics where the output RCA grounds are connected with a wire while others keep input and output gronds separate. I've also seen schematics where the ground post is connected only to the transformer internal shield. Some people float (unground) their case if metal. I'm just trying to get an idea on the best wiring scheme of all of the grounds to prevent possible hum problems.
Regards,
David

 

RE: Never mind. But.., posted on April 15, 2015 at 19:47:16
user510
 I understand your curiosity. The reason I hesitate to offer a grounding scheme is because what works in one group of components may be somewhat problematic in another.

Ask Bob why he installs a ground lift switch on his SUT products...!

This way I don't feel responsible if someone tries one of my suggestions and runs into a problem. Besides, if you experiment on your own, you eventually get a sense of what works in your situation far better.

-Steve







 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 15, 2015 at 20:06:31
icho
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Location: Michigan
Joined: February 6, 2015
 I stopped listening vinyl in early late 80's and restarted in mid 90's and used Dual automatic turntable and Grado Black. Then, Dual 12xx ..., and finally Clearaudio Emotion and Rogue Magnum pre with phono card about 7 years ago. Then, upgraded to Audio Technica 150mlx which was much better than the stock cartridge that came with Emotion. Then, Ortofon low output cartridges (MC20, SL15, SL20, MC100), Denon 103R with SUTs. A few SUTs I've tried: Ortofon T20, T30, Audio Technica AT650, and Budgie Cinemag, all in $200~$400 range.
Then, BAT vk60/vk30 about 5 years ago, and my eyes turned to vintage turntables. Now I have Garrard 301 with RMG309 arm with SPU Gold Ref, and Thorens TD124 with AS212 arm with SPU mono cartridge, in addition to Clearaudio.
SPU Gold requires a better SUT and they all seem to start at around $1000.
Then, my system has been changed to Plinius SA102 and CD-LAD, and now I need a new phono stage. I like the Plinius sound much better than BAT. I bought PS Audio Nuwave, thinking that I need to convert analog to diginal audio. Well, this Nuwave is a bit of disappointment. It does not sound any better than Rogue Magnum phono or BAT vk30 phono even though it is very convenient to convert to digital (with Audacity).
So, that is where I am now, or where I am stuck at. I need another phono stage and SUT that would work good with SPU Gold Ref. Which means another $2000+, and I am pretty much stuck cause I cannot get enough money in anther year or so.
That caused me thinking why these stuffs have to be so expensive.

By the way I have over 2000 LPs, and I do like to keep those three tables: one for mono, one for mint records (with SPU Gold), and one for sub mint LPs (with Ortofon Low out MCs, Denon 103R, or AT150mlx).

Thanks for listening to my rants.
ilhyung

 

RE: Never mind. But.., posted on April 15, 2015 at 22:51:24
Sidewinder
Audiophile

Posts: 254
Joined: April 13, 2001
 Yes, I fully understand that a particular grounding scheme may or may not work well in my group of components. It's obvious from what I've read so far. That is why I am asking for your method of grounding. I want to gather all the possible ways in doing this. Then I would have a starting point and will modify as needed if I encounter any hum problems. I'm asking for your approach because you have much more experience than I in these matters and I want to add your ideas to my knowledge base before I attempt to build my SUT and will most likely experiment to see what works best in my system. Don't worry, I won't hold it against you if your method doesn't work in my system.
Regards,
David

 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 16, 2015 at 03:10:01
Munkie_NL
Audiophile

Posts: 4859
Location: Netherlands
Joined: August 24, 2003
 Good question. A while ago my Lehmann BCSE stopped working. Metal box with a PC board. 3 IC's and a few other parts. Ok, big external power supply. Thankfully my local repair man had a spare opamp IC. Back in business!

As with all things "high end" one can wonder about he price/quality relationship.

"The torture never stops"

Greetings Freek.

 

RE: Why phono amps or Step Up Transformers are so expensive?, posted on April 16, 2015 at 05:47:11
Kindablue
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Well put Bill. Break it down and keep it simple. Then you have a answere you can agree or disagree with but at least you have an answere.

 

difficulty in manufacture, posted on April 17, 2015 at 12:33:40
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
 A very good phono stage is tough to make well. It has high gain and yet must be quiet. The better the phono stage gets, the more dynamic, richer in timber etc. it can get. The very best can get the most out of a record. A cheap phono stage will be quiet due to large quantities of feedback to pound it into submission and will have very little in the way of dynamics or musicality.
The transformers are hard to make to due size and gauge of winding. The other problem is that the demand is negligible. The large winders will want orders of 1000's and that might years worth of demand.

 

Maximum profit here, posted on April 19, 2015 at 04:23:08
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
 Most are cheap inside, really cheap, lousy specs but they can be hidden from the wife, it is like a "black box" you can not look inside and the only way to get some respect is a high price tag...had one from Lyra (crap), Koetsu (BS) EAR (real BS) and 12 more

Kind Regards


 

RE: It is the cost of running a company, posted on May 6, 2015 at 07:47:23
icho
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Location: Michigan
Joined: February 6, 2015
 Thanks.
It makes sense.
With a further research, I've realized that the phono preamps and SUTs are very niche (?) market and most of them are produced in small quantity, especially those high end expensive models. To recoup their R&D time and effort, it is obvious that they are expensive.
If the labor vs parts ratio is so big, then I wonder if the products made in China will be more appealing in coming years for the high end phono preamp and SUT market, especially when their skill level and manufacturing quality is up par with western countries (US, West Europe, ...). Well, it would be same with tube audios.
ilhyung

 

RE: It is the cost of running a company, posted on May 6, 2015 at 12:38:43
fscerri
Audiophile

Posts: 177
Location: Queensland, Australia.
Joined: October 26, 2008
 G'day all, I'm a big fan of electronics DIY and most of my best MM phono stages are DIY efforts.

The overall cost is low and the performance very high (ESP P06 and Bruce Heran one op amp phono stages).

As for SUT's, check out the inexpensive but high quality microphone matching transformers some of the electronics hobbyists outlets sell. They are ideal for MC cartridges although they generally have fixed impedance ratios. Regards, Felix.

 

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