John Cage

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And here's 4'33 on CD:

Which version do you think is more effective?

I would think the digital version would "look" like this..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 05:50:28
Dman Audiophile Posts: 7211 Location: Kansas Joined: January 28, 2001	!000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000! Just playing around... Let's add SACD and DVD-A to the mix as well! LOL Dman Analog Junkie

RE: Compare for yourself:, posted on October 29, 2014 at 05:52:41
middleground	Ceedee is way better at such a task, but, in the final analysis, I have to give the nod to s-a-ceedee. Hear it for yourself: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The imaging is so much better, as are the bloom and inner detail.

RE: John Cage, posted on October 29, 2014 at 06:40:36
bassrome Industry Professional Posts: 54 Location: New Jersey Joined: January 8, 2012	That's my favorite song!

I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:10:31
rbolaw	who actually owns a vinyl LP with the music of John Cage on it.

Then there's BluRay..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:13:22
genungo	. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. Hmmmmm. For me it's a toss up.

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:16:20
genungo	I have a couple of his albums. Lest we forget, his music can be quite enjoyable.

Without dither:, posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:21:10
genungo	101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010100101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101001010101010101010101

Could be, posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:42:52

rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
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Posts: 3040
Location: Atlanta
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The idea is the sound of the audience was the performance.

If you had a suitably stunned audience that made lots of respiratory sounds along with whispering and squirming in the seats it could be an excellent chance to see how your system captures the acoustic of the hall.

Cage was the Jackson Pollock of music, Both of these fellows were interested in finding out what they could get away with. I suspect they were as shocked as the general public that they were given any attention at all. More show business than art so it appealed greatly to those who considered themselves avant-garde-ish. They would go to these events to be seen and in hopes of free food and drink after.

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 07:43:44
Ryelands Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: Scotland Joined: January 9, 2009	I wonder if I'm the only one here . . . who actually owns a vinyl LP with the music of John Cage on it. Nope. There's at least one other. It's not our fault if folk miss the point of 4' 33" . . . Dave

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 08:23:55
rbolaw	Right, although I think rickmcinnis does a pretty good job of describing the point behind 4'33" in his post. Where he goes wrong is in assuming there isn't more to John Cage's music in general.

I would think it would be the worse, posted on October 29, 2014 at 08:40:52
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17302 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	Too much noise, not enough signal. :-) Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

RE: Without dither:, posted on October 29, 2014 at 08:48:55
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17302 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	Would it be better 24 bit? 000000000000000000000000 or 16 bit? 0000000000000000 Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

Nope..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 08:58:47

musetap
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Posts: 31878
Location: San Francisco
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Contributor
Since: January 28, 2004

Much as with "Kind of Blue" it turns out the master recording machine from the session was running
slow the day 4'33" was recorded, so it sounds a bit sharp by about a quarter tone, yet still clocks in at the proper time.

This has since been corrected but only in the digital arena.

Also -avoid the Quad version, there is false, inherent echo that is VERY distracting.

I've read the best version to listen to is the recent iTunes download, and other options are available at the link.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure

http://interglacial.com/~sburke/stuff/cage_433.html

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 09:01:53

Ryelands
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

. . . assuming there isn't more to John Cage's music in general.

Sorry - I missed Rick's post first time round. I'm not sure how much licence we have to discuss Cage in the Asylum's Vinyl Ward (though it is more tolerant than most, perhaps because it's so long stay) but I'd agree with you and differ with Rick here.

He was much more than a showman. Leaving aside that, for all his limitations, he wrote some attractive conventional music and that I'm emphatically no expert on him, works such as 4'33" and others in his so-called aleatory genre raised important points about what performed music actually IS.

Besides, anyone who falls foul of Pierre Boulez can't be all bad . . .

Dave

RE: Without dither:, posted on October 29, 2014 at 09:13:18
genungo	This is getting confusing.

RE: Could be, posted on October 29, 2014 at 09:57:29
middleground	Your understanding of art seems somewhat petty.

"anyone who falls foul of Pierre Boulez can't be all bad . . .", posted on October 29, 2014 at 10:04:35
rbolaw	+1, LOL, as they say. Good post, thanks.

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 10:04:41

middleground

"works such as 4'33" and others in his so-called aleatory genre raised important points about what performed music actually IS."

Absolutely.

And, along the same lines, Kazimir Malevitch was a great painter.

http://poulopot.o.p.f.unblog.fr/files/2011/02/carrblancsurfo

Maybe it could be summed up by this LP from Alaska., posted on October 29, 2014 at 11:14:38
alaskahiatt Audiophile Posts: 7506 Joined: December 9, 2000 Contributor Since: November 1, 2005	nt

RE: John Cage, posted on October 29, 2014 at 12:34:30

radiodaddy
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Posts: 1600
Location: New Jersey
Joined: August 13, 2003

As part of Cage's intent was for the piece to be played for an audience, it's debatable that any recording of it is valid.

That said, Cage set out to do a number of things with the composition: to highlight the importance of silences in music, especially his own work; to focus the audience's attention on the environment in which they hear a musical work; and to highlight the role that time (in the temporal, not musical, sense) plays in a composition - a musical work exists in a finite block of time, and all that it is must come between the beginning and the end of that block.

A recording would introduce another factor to the second point above: instead of the sounds of the hall, other audience members, outside noises, traffic, etc., the listener would hear the surface noise of the record, turntable rumble, amplifier hum, the whir of a disc transport, sounds of the listening room, other appliances etc. It would still fulfill the purpose of making the listener actively consider all the elements that go into their perception of music.

Per the first and third, there is almost a meditative aspect to the piece. Four minutes and thirty-three seconds is on its face a fairly brief period, but if you are asked to sit in silent concentration for that period, your perception of time will shift. If you truly focus on the details of the sounds you hear over that stretch to the exclusion of other stimuli, it will appear to lengthen, and you begin to understand the nature of time, not merely as a measuring rod, but as a "container" into which a nearly infinite variety of sensations and perceptions can be fit. When afterward you listen to a performance of a traditional piece of music (that is, one with instruments making sounds), the places where the composer and performer do not place notes become as important as the places they do (something good musicians know well, but many listeners do not).

Having not seen the score for this..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 12:47:49
Dman Audiophile Posts: 7211 Location: Kansas Joined: January 28, 2001	And considering I have a pretty good ear, what is the tempo on the notation. Only then can I truly learn to appreciate my inherent sense of meter... Dman Analog Junkie

RE: Having not seen the score for this..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 13:09:39
radiodaddy Audiophile Posts: 1600 Location: New Jersey Joined: August 13, 2003	No notation. The score simply reads "tacet" for each of the three movements. In his notes, Cage suggests timings of :33, 2:40, and 1:20 for each movement, but does not insist upon them.

Well, that sucks! I was hoping to actually be able to count it out..., posted on October 29, 2014 at 13:20:11
Dman Audiophile Posts: 7211 Location: Kansas Joined: January 28, 2001	being (gasp!) a musician and all that! LOL Guess I'll have to learn it by ear... Dman Analog Junkie

True., posted on October 29, 2014 at 13:52:07
rbolaw

RE: I wonder if I'm the only one here, posted on October 29, 2014 at 14:51:42
Crazy Dave Audiophile Posts: 14371 Location: East Coast Joined: October 4, 2001	I have records, CDs and have seen a live performance. Dave

RE: Could be, posted on October 29, 2014 at 15:48:49
caligari Audiophile Posts: 415 Joined: March 20, 2008	middleground: "Your understanding of art seems somewhat petty." +1

RE: Could be, posted on October 30, 2014 at 03:33:02

Ryelands
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Posts: 1867
Location: Scotland
Joined: January 9, 2009

Your understanding of art seems somewhat petty.

That seems a little harsh. I'd argue that it's less petty than the facetious remarks that 4'33" seems to attract from folk apparently unaware that Cage was not without a touch of humour. Besides, Rick's in pretty good company - talents as diverse as Schoenberg (who taught Cage), Boulez and Stockhausen were, probably rightly, dismissive of his compositional ability. He himself admitted to having a poor understanding of harmony. And so on.

In 2012, the London Sinfonietta "performed" 4'33" at a televised BBC Promenade Concert that we happened to watch; its effect was very much as radiodaddy's post suggests. It was clear that the "performers", the conductor and the audience alike enjoyed the piece - IOW, they not only listened to the "silence" but had fun. So did we. Cage had made an important musical/philosophical point in, well, under five minutes.

I'm not qualified to comment on his stature as a composer; I find such works as I've heard attractive but not earth-shattering. That said, I'm adamant that was he an important musical thinker and not, as Rick suggests, a showman and a bit of a charlatan.

But then I like Jackson Pollock too. Anyway, thanks to all for an interesting thread, esp the link to Kazimir Malevitch whose work I had not seen before.

+1. All I can add ..., posted on October 30, 2014 at 06:51:08
rbolaw	is that the Cubists and other early- and mid-20th century modern artists like Malevich or Mondrian or Bauer have had a profound and lasting effect on our lives. Just look at any rectangular steel-and-glass office building, or the Beatles' White Album. And you can probably say the same about Philip Glass -- or John Cage.

RE: John Cage, posted on October 30, 2014 at 08:41:45
Inmate51	For folks who are interested in John Cage, here is a shot from Peter Hansen's book "An Introduction to Twentieth Century Music. Sorry about the image size, but I figured y'all might want to be able to read the text. ;)

RE: John Cage, posted on October 30, 2014 at 08:42:08

Palustris
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Posts: 2408
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I don't know how many here met John Cage when he was alive, but I have to say that he had one of the most amazing "presences" that I have ever experienced. A couple of decades ago, I went to a very intimate concert at Longy School with a meet and greet afterwards where they featured the music of Cage. Cage sat in the audience with us on a folding chair in the small auditorium. During the concert he just radiated good will and profound good humor. After the concert, shaking his hand and chatting with him, I felt the depth of his being and basked in his smile. I was once in the presence of the Dalai Lama and Cage had a similar bearing and countenance; they radiated compassion, good will, and beamed happiness to those around them.

RE: John Cage, posted on October 30, 2014 at 11:31:29
radiodaddy Audiophile Posts: 1600 Location: New Jersey Joined: August 13, 2003	Quite a memory. Every picture I've seen of him gives the impression of a happy, serene, and generous soul. So many artists put on a forbidding, melancholy, or even sour mien for the camera - I see a picture of Cage and think "boy, I wish I knew him."

RE: Could be, posted on October 30, 2014 at 14:06:02

NB
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Posts: 551
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Gary Moore: “Inevitably, Mr. Cage, these are nice people, but some of them are going to laugh. Is that all right?”

John Cage: “Of course. I consider laughter preferable to tears.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9vvrSyAPuw

RE: John Cage, posted on October 30, 2014 at 14:35:20

Crazy Dave
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Posts: 14371
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I had a similar experience talking with Baba Ram-Das.

I did not meet John Cage when I went to a performance, but I expect he was present. There was a very positive and relaxed feel. The musicians were scattered across the auditorium and the audience would wander from performance to performance. I did talk to some of the musicians. The was a pianist who played the string directly an percussionist who had a brake drum as one of his drums. It was quite an experience.

Dave

RE: Could be, posted on October 30, 2014 at 15:15:42

middleground

The word petty seems to upset you.

I used it as a translation of the French "étriqué".

English is not my mother tongue.

I still maintain that people who think that modern art is nothing more than a gimmick meant to separate the bourgeois from their coinage are simply wrong. As for those who have mentioned the sense of humour of modern artists pushing the limits, yes one sometimes finds humour in art. Some artists may express humour, but that hardly makes their artistic endeavours a joke.

Pioneering artists are condemned to being on the leading edge of their art and to creating original works and the thinking that goes with such creation. That is far from a novelty act in search of paying suckers.

True., posted on October 31, 2014 at 07:18:09
rbolaw	For example, that cubist work of Malevich that you linked to reminds one a lot of the Beatles' White Album, doesn't it? That similarity isn't coincidental.

RE: Could be, posted on October 31, 2014 at 08:22:46
caligari Audiophile Posts: 415 Joined: March 20, 2008	Middleground, I don't know if your reply is addressed to me. "+1" means I agree with you in addition. I disagree with rickmcinnis that Jackson Pollock is not merely "show business." His work can be art at the highest order, regardless of genre.

Vinyl Asylum

John Cage

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