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The Beginner's Dilemma

98.237.118.2
Posted on September 20, 2014 at 09:13:08
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 Hey people.. I'm just dipping my toes into vinyl and audio... picked up an Audio-Technica LP120... now I need to look at an amp/receiver and speakers. I'm currently running it thru my Sony home theater system and that's just not cutting it. Any suggestions for a good start point for a beginning? I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I don't want to be spend $3K on a sound system quite yet but I'm not on a strict budget either.

 

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RE: The Beginner's Dilemma, posted on September 20, 2014 at 09:59:12
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 I think the cartridge is the make or break for your beginning system. You probably need a good high-output MM cartridge like one of the Grado's, perhaps. Someone else can chime in with specific experience. I used a Blue Point at one time.

 

First things first, posted on September 20, 2014 at 10:11:13
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 Ditch the internal preamp, use the direct out, i think it is labeled Phono. Get a preamp. There are a number of sub 200 buck ones available that sound much better than the AT built in. Get a better cartridge the AT95E is not bad, but not stellar. maybe a Shure ME97xe will sound better :).

get adjustment tools... there are a lot of protractors for free. Get a cheap stylus force gage. Shure makes a mechanical one and there are plenty of cheap digital ones. Either will be more accurate than the float and adjust method. It takes a bit of time and patience to get the best sound out of what you have. The skills you acquire to setup the AT properly will be with you even when you get your Redpoint XX table :).

Read the articles under Cartridge and Turntable Setup Links in the FAQ.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: First things first, posted on September 20, 2014 at 10:20:21
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 Great advice. I'm still just learning how turntables work and the adjusting is taking some time. I'll definitely check into the gage. I've read a number of places that the pre-amp on the LP120 is junk.. so maybe that will make a big difference. Any suggestions for a pre-amp and speakers?

 

You are asking the wrong guy, posted on September 20, 2014 at 10:53:48
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 because i like what i have just fine, and do not go out and listen to too many new gadgets.

There are just sooooo many speakers out there. Try to figure out what you like, and find the one within your budget that you like the best.

Search Vinyl for opinions on preamps. it is sometimes very surprising what you find for less than what you would expect. Are you handy with the soldering iron? Kits are a good way to save.

Not a recommendation, but right now i use an iPhono, my Sao Win phono stage is misbehaving. I also have a Contepoint SA3.1 with a tube phono stage, but it eats tubes :). For speakers I have a pair of Soundlab A1s, and also own pair of Vandersteen 3A sigs with a pair of 2Wqs, which do not get much use nowadays, but i have them. So as you see, I have a peculiar taste and am bad at giving advise.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Agree on the stand alone phono preamp., posted on September 20, 2014 at 10:58:29
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 The Hagerman Bugle 2 is a bargain at $189, factory assembled (link below). I would stick with the 95E, however. I've owned both the AT and the Shure. I'd recommend the Shure only if the rest of the system leans toward the bright side.

Of course, if the OP buys an integrated amplifier with a good phono section (NAD?), he can forgo the Bugle.





Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: The Beginner's Dilemma, posted on September 20, 2014 at 13:28:53
Cuernavaca
Audiophile

Posts: 878
Location: NW
Joined: December 23, 2011
 The Hagerman Bugle is a good place to start, there are other phono preamps, maybe a Musical Fidelity VLPS. Don't upgrade the cartridge until you can spend more money on a better turntable. What you have is okay to learn how to do simple adjustments, but eventually you may want to spend more to get better sound. Any older vintage manual turntable will sound better than what you have, but may need some maintenance to get it up and running well. I watch Craigslist and good affordable working turntables show up occasionally. But as with anything, the better the deal, the faster they sell. There was a nice condition Thorens TD160 on Portland Craigslist a few days ago for $175, but it sold in a just a few hours. Be patient, buy some records and take it slow.

TR
"I've never owned a firearm, but I do have an attack parrot!"

 

RE: The Beginner's Dilemma, posted on September 20, 2014 at 17:10:20
Goober58
 How about some powered speakers? A Tascam CDR to record your vinyl to CD and to play back your CDs/Recordings to a DAC or to the speakers (if they have their own DAC)? This could be right on the edge of the border between pro and consumer products - make sure your purchases/considerations can actually work with each other. I'm thinking around a grand or a bit more for entry level.

Next up $2 grand for a new TT, phono pre and cartridge.

At that point you'll have endless possibilities if you want to go forward.

 

RE: The Beginner's Dilemma, posted on September 21, 2014 at 07:22:44
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 I REALLY appreciate all of the suggestions! My knowledge of audio equipment in general is really limited.. so I'm truly a beginner. Right now I'm going to get the most that I can out of this turntable.. and start with a decent preamp and speakers... I honestly didn't even realize that there were different types of preamps.. ie phono preamp. Don't judge me! Haha..

 

RE: The Beginner's Dilemma, posted on September 21, 2014 at 07:31:31
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 Is the Hagerman available pre-assembled anywhere?

 

No need for a $2K TT, spend the cash on Lp's. nt, posted on September 21, 2014 at 08:12:24
jdaniel@jps.net
 .

 

here, posted on September 21, 2014 at 08:34:11
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 ;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 08:36:07
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 Get your table adjusted properly and enjoy some tunes.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 09:56:56
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 haha.. having the table setup properly WOULD be good.. I did order myself a stylus force gage.. that whole "float and adjust" method didn't seem very precise.. and I probably damaged my stylus in the process.. thanks again for the suggestions.. I'm looking at a pair of Audioengine A5+ to at least give myself some speakers above my generic surround sound system.. and I keep reading that I should take out or at least bypass the AT pre-amp

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 10:14:54
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Working from the A5+, you have a line-level pre-amp, amplifier AND loudspeaker all in one package which is a VERY good start. If you are at all inclined to continue accumulating some LPs, I would ditch the turntable, sell it on craigslist, for instance, and get a more accepted entry level table. Maybe, a Music Hall or Pro-ject, as some also come with cartridge AND pre-amp. I would not be inclined to go to USB, though, unless you wish to hang out at computer-audio sub-board, which is a whole 'nother game to play.

I think the Bugle pre-amp is probably a very good investment, along with Cambridge Audio and several others at the $200 level. However, I think they are a waste without a good entry level table. The Rega P1 is also probably a good place to start as well to be merrily on your way and get a $40 phono stage for starters.

[Ignore my advice! It appears this table is the bargain of the new century in vinyl reproduction. Enjoy it. I go back to my first suggestion and try different cartridges and play around with alignment to get the best sound out of it. Phono stage DOES matter, but we're trying to keep this a bargain, I suspect.]

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 14:55:45
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > I did order myself a stylus force gage.. that whole "float and adjust" method didn't seem very precise.

I always use a digital scale, but the "float and adjust" method is very accurate on my Technics SL-1200 Mk2. It always matches my digital scale to within a few hundredths of a gram. I think if you do it right, you should be okay.

It is very important to measure vertical tracking force at the same height as the vinyl record surface. To accomplish this, I made a weighing platform for my digital scale by cutting and bending an old credit card as shown below.

Good luck,
John Elison


 

Come-on now, we're talking beginner's thread, posted on September 21, 2014 at 15:40:14
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 It took me twenty years to figure out how to setup a turntable properly. However, I still had fun all of that time ;-)

 

Sorry!, posted on September 21, 2014 at 16:31:20
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 My point was that I think he can set tracking force accurately enough with the counterweight gauge. I can on my Technics SL-1200.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 17:41:02
ssjm1221
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Joined: September 20, 2014
 they key there would be "doing it right" haha. I've done it a few times.. while managing to only let the stylus touch the felt mat a few times.. but.. I don't feel confident that I'm getting it perfectly set..

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 21, 2014 at 18:58:53
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I balance my tonearm so that the stylus floats just above the vinyl surface. Then set the gauge on the counterweight to zero without turning the counterweight. Make sure the tonearm is still balanced with the stylus no more than 1-mm above the vinyl surface. If everything looks good, place the tonearm in its rest and turn the counterweight until the gauge reads the desired tracking force and you should be good to go. It works for me every time on my SL-1200 Mk2.

Good luck,
John Elison

PS. Make sure you turn off antiskating for this exercise and then make sure you turn it back on after you've finished setting tracking force.

 

Not all tables have the counter weight calibrated properly, posted on September 22, 2014 at 07:57:57
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 the counterweights on my EPA 250 wands are ultra accurate, but those were flagship arms from technics. I never actually calibrated an AT table, maybe it is fine, maybe not. But how would you know it without owning something to calibrate it with? When i first got my WTT it had no scale so i bought a Sure SFG. It served me well for years, then i got one of them pocket scales you have, and never looked back :).

But, just for kicks i calibrated the the technics arm and it is dead accurate. it has a numbered division at every 0.1g and a tick mark at every 0.025g and through the whole range it is dead on. At least according to my "Arm Load Meter Made in China" brand SFG i bought for a good price from a dealer friend who trades speakers i have :).

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

I've always found counterweight gauges to be very accurate..., posted on September 22, 2014 at 10:10:20
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Of course, the only way to know for sure is to measure VTF with a scale. In that case, you should always measure VTF at the level of the vinyl record playing surface.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 22, 2014 at 17:54:51
countertenor
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Location: Cincinnati,Ohio
Joined: May 22, 2009
 That's cool.

Personally I use playing cards to get the scale to the correct height next to the platter.
it's about the music

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 22, 2014 at 19:21:15
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 The magnets in my moving coil cartridges cause my scale to give erroneous readings if I rest the stylus directly on the scale platform. Moreover, the side-platform method is much simpler than using playing cards and it is compatible with all turntables.

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 22, 2014 at 20:18:33
countertenor
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Location: Cincinnati,Ohio
Joined: May 22, 2009
 My scale is non ferrous so no magnet problems. The playing card method works fine with both my Lenco and VPI tables.

Cheers

E
it's about the music

 

RE: spend the money on music first, posted on September 22, 2014 at 21:00:27
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 My scale is non-ferrous in the sense there is no attraction to the scales metal platform, but the strong magnet in moving coil cartridges seems to affect the electronics in the scale or something. Such is life! ;-)

 

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