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Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video

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Posted on July 28, 2014 at 22:03:38
Drew769
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: April 24, 2011
 I bought both the Falcon PSU and the Roadrunner tachometer just recently, and I'm very impressed thus far. Connected to my VPI Scout with its standard 600 rpm motor, the two boxes keep the speed of the table stable and accurate to quartz direct drive levels. They're easy to use, and very well made. No affiliation with the manufacturer, just a happy customer.

I shot a video which shows the effects of these devices in stages:

1. Only the roadrunner, to show how well the VPI works without the power supply box regulating the power. (It's not bad, as you would expect from VPI)

2. PSU connected to the motor, but not connected to the Roadrunner, to see the effect of the power supply on the TT motor compared with wall power. (Better bracketing of speeds, smaller variance)

3. Roadrunner and Falcon PSU connected, the tachometer automatically adjusts the speed until it matches the intended speed. (Accuracy and stability are amazing, holding its setting to the thousandths.)

Here is a link to the video - enjoy and hope you guys find this useful.

 

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RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 06:10:12
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
 .

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 08:56:09
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 How many watts or amps can your unit safety power? I have a TNT and a HW-19 I'd like to try it on.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 08:59:20
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 Interesting stuff. In both scenarios(i.e. with or without speed correction) does the readout look any different after the needle is dropped in? If the Roadrunner readout becomes unstable for the stock TT while playing an LP, this would be strong evidence of the adverse effects of stylus drag on an uncompensated belt drive TT.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 09:03:23
Cuernavaca
Audiophile

Posts: 878
Location: NW
Joined: December 23, 2011
 I have been using the Falcon PSU on an AR ES-1 and EB101, very impressive speed stability. Easy to set up and use, speed is rock solid. Before and after listening to Backhaus performing Beethoven piano sonatas was night and day.

TR
"I've never owned a firearm, but I do have an attack parrot!"

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 09:45:01
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
 .

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 10:04:54
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I must say, I have my doubts when comparing to the VPI SDS.

The VPI SDS does much more than provide a dependable speed. IIRC it changes the shape of the AC wave and lowers the voltage after start up. All this is done with the intent of providing instantaneous speed stability rather than the average speed stability evidently provided by the Phoenix system. Of course it is a much more expensive unit and should do more.

I remember the change on my TNT when I switched out the original VPI speed controller for the SDS. It made a substantial difference. Since you are going from no controller to the Phoenix, I would hope for more of a listening difference than you describe.

The Roadrunner seems to work exactly like the speedometer on my bicycle that measures the time for a wheel revolution and provides the average reading over the last few revolutions.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 10:10:38
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 How many watts or amps can your unit safety power? I have a TNT and a HW-19 I'd like to try it on.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 10:39:32
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
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 .

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:10:06
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI.

But I must say this whole thread, beginning with the OP celebrating dials and LEDs instead of improved audio, and followed by all of your posts celebrating technology looks more like an advertisement for Phoenix Engineering than what we are used to in these parts.

Mel

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:19:33
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 I have been using the Falcon PSU and Roadrunner unit for 3-4 months now with my VPI Scout with the 300 motor upgrade. I also very much recommend.

Simple to use, you can see real time what the speed is doing.

I found Phoenix on the DIYAudio site, while keeping an eye on the K&K audio speed controller, which might be available now, and other DIY builds for turntable motor control. The Phoenix unit is like pushing the "easy" button, besides being very affordable.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:41:16
Drew769
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: April 24, 2011
 Hi Mel,

I should have probably led with the opinion that my VPI has never sounded so consistantly good since putting these devices into the chain. There is a certain rightness to everything I've dropped a needle on. "PRaT" is probably cliche, but I've noticed that the soundstage is very consistantly wide and instruments have a natural sound like they should.

Of course, I focused the video on the objective measurements, primarily because they told the story behind the improvement and consistancy in sound that I was experiencing. Seldom in the world of high end audio is there is objective measure that actually shows you why something sounds better to your ears.

I have no affiliation with Phoenix - I actually bought them through Hi-Fi Heaven on eBay. I love the VPI products, and will most likely eventually upgrade the Scout to another VPI table.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:53:08
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
 .

 

That's how it seems to me, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:59:14
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 More advertising.

 

Objectivity?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:01:03
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 Manufacturers will NEVER provide an objective evaluation of their products.

 

No, but I have an issue with you linking a review. That is advertising, plain and simple. nt, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:09:08
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: Objectivity?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:09:10
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
 .

 

Inexpensive alternative, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:10:28
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 I'm using a $55 variac with outstanding results. The biggest improvements in power to VPI tables seem to come from voltage reductions rather than speed control. I start at 110v and back down to 60v for playback. Sounds great at less than 1/10th the cost of these units.

It's the VOLTAGE that makes the biggest difference. Lower voltage smooths the synchronous pulses that get into the platter through the belt(s). Lower voltage means softer pulses, lower noise.

 

RE: Objectivity?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:14:57
Drew769
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: April 24, 2011
 To be clear, I posted that video as a consumer. The "evaluation" was not by the manufacturer. It was actually my first attempt at any kind of a product evaluation (you'll see my other vids are mostly car stuff) - probably my last attempt, too! LOL Geez.

The manufacturer did jump in to add detailed information to Mel's questions/opinions. Can you blame a manufacturer for doing that?

 

RE: Objectivity?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:15:38
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 When logic fails, personal attacks begin.

I have no tagline. That was placed by the forum. I could make some suggestions for you as well, if I was going to waste any more time or bandwidth on your advertising.

Buh, bye

 

RE: Objectivity?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:16:10
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 Just more advertising.

 

Amen!! n/t, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:16:57
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 .

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:31:00
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Drew,

But what you said in your review, before being provoked, was that you couldn't say it made "a night and day difference." For the rest of us who could care less about bells and whistles, THAT was the review!

 

You have an issue with a customer doing a review?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:34:37
Drew769
Audiophile

Posts: 151
Joined: April 24, 2011
 Isn't that one of the purposes of a message board? For people to share information about (in this case)records and vinyl playback equipment?

 

The *manufacturer* linked a review., posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:42:12
Rick W
 I'm a musician and release my cd's on my independent label. I've received quite a few very positive reviews. I am not allowed to post a link to them on AA. It would be fine for you or another inmate to post it, NOT for the manufacturer.

 

RE: The *manufacturer* linked a review., posted on July 29, 2014 at 12:54:51
phoenixengr
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
 .

 

GMAFB., posted on July 29, 2014 at 13:08:42
Rick W
 Is this really too hard for you to understand? Reviews of my cd's are in jazz publications, and are hardly affiliated with my label. Its an AA rule. I didn't write the rules, but I - and you - have to abide by them. I'd think it was obvious that they don't want the joint inundated with links to reviews posted by people who'd benefit from what amounts to advertising.

FYI I might be interested in your product.

 

A little less defensive would be good, posted on July 29, 2014 at 14:03:02
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
 People here are interested in the product.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 14:49:06
rrob
Audiophile

Posts: 762
Location: Kansas
Joined: February 7, 2010
 Drew,

Thanks for posting. I bought the Roadrunner a week ago, a huge improvement over my KAB speed strobe. You provided valuable information about the combination.

Randy

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 15:34:17
scrbblkng
Audiophile

Posts: 71
Joined: May 3, 2001
 If lowering the voltage is beneficial once start up rotation has been acheived, why dont the manufacturers simply implement a low voltage design that requires the user to establish rotation by spinning the platter by hand? Hasnt there been tables on the market where this was required? If so what might the drawback be?

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 16:04:44
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 After reviewing manufacturer's posts and responses, I'm not sure I would spend any money of products he produces. Why would anybody put up with that kind of attitude?

Have a look at his edits to see what buyers would be dealing with.

 

HMMMMM, posted on July 29, 2014 at 16:56:20
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Nottingham does that ; you need to spin the platter to get it going, no power switch.

VPI drops the voltage down after start up, too, IIRC.

Linn LP-12 runs its AC motor at about 86 VAC, with the Valhalla mod, IIRC.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 16:57:30
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 Why are all responses by the manufacturer consist of just a period? What's up with that?

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 17:00:36
Jive Turkey
Audiophile

Posts: 2409
Location: far left, geographically speaking
Joined: May 5, 2010
 My guess is he took his marbles and went home. Can't blame him. He got jumped pretty good around here.

See ya. Dave

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 29, 2014 at 17:04:28
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 I think the VPI SDS performs that function for VPI tables. I'm not sure it reduces voltage on its own. I have found a significant improvement in Aries performance using a simple variac to reduce voltage to 60v after the platter is up to speed on start-up.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 18:11:57
Frank_Locke



I watched your vid with coffee this morning at about 6AM EST as my day was starting and thought it was interesting. I missed all the rest of what happened, which apparently is a good thing.

Anyway, I use an original Scout with a Walker motor controller and the KAB strobe system. This has been my rig for about 10 years and it seems to work well.

Your review made me curious about these 2 boxes and for a few minutes today I thought it might be fun to hear them in my system, replacing the Walker, just to hear it. This will probably never actually happen, but the review was fun and it seems like you had fun (until a few hours ago!) doing it.

So thanks and enjoy your gear. And yes, you can make huge adjustments to the speed simply by moving the belt to a higher or lower "tier," or by pulling the motor slightly away from the 'table.

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 29, 2014 at 18:25:07
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I always spin the platter on my Sota Millennia when starting. I just grab the reflex clamp and give a spin as I press the start button in order to take some stress off the belt.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:21:07
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 Really, 99% of my customers would send the table back if it didn't start when they pushed the button! BTW, it is not really safe to sell things in the US without an on-off switch and a fuse!!

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:22:50
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 Yes John, that is how it should be made, push the button and spin the platter. You need an on-off switch!!!! Sota knows that.

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:24:39
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 The SDS drops the voltage to 72V or higher in increments of 6V after platter has stabilized and the power can be reduced.

 

RE: Inexpensive alternative, posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:32:43
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 I've been telling people who call to get a Variac for probably 25 years! It really works but it will not stabilize the frequency like the SDS does if you are going for the last ounce of speed stability. A $100.00 metered Variac does a wonderful job on a synchronous motor table and for that matter it does a great job on power amps setting the voltage to the exact amount that sounds the best in your setup.

I run my big Mac amps at exactly 117V, sounds best that way.

HW

 

RE: Inexpensive alternative, posted on July 29, 2014 at 21:45:03
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 HW, does it do any damage to operate an Aries or TNT motor to operate at 60v after start-up at 110v? Doesn't seem to get warm or fail to hold speed.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 29, 2014 at 22:26:06
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I guess he didn't realize that a space would do the same thing as a period. I always use a space.

 

I've used the "Rega nudge" to give the platter a boost at start up ever since my first Rega. /nt\, posted on July 30, 2014 at 03:26:13
Opus 33 1/3
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Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014




Opus 33 1/3

 

+1, posted on July 30, 2014 at 04:55:19
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 Some of the folks on this forum are ridiculous. The product in question started out as a DIY project on a DIY site. The responses to the product have been quite positive. How naive of him to think he could come to the Vinyl Asylum and talk about anything but a Denon DL-103 or a Technics SL-1200.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

RE: Inexpensive alternative, posted on July 30, 2014 at 05:08:01
HW
Manufacturer

Posts: 515
Joined: March 16, 2002
 As long as the motor locks on and stays synchronous you are fine. When it starts vibrating and going out of synch you are too low!!

 

RE: Inexpensive alternative, posted on July 30, 2014 at 07:38:31
BPoletti
Audiophile

Posts: 931
Location: Midwest
Joined: October 3, 2010
 Thanks, Harry. I'm very pleased with my Aries (extended) and the accompanying JMW-12 arm. And the variac made a nice improvement.

 

He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 09:33:30
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 10:12:16
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 I am not seeing the "edits" thing. I am interested in the manufactures comments as I was considering purchasing one of these.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 30, 2014 at 10:31:32
rrob
Audiophile

Posts: 762
Location: Kansas
Joined: February 7, 2010
 How do you measure the speed and of your table? How consistent is it? Did the SDS make a night and day difference?

 

Click on one his posts, then look at bottom left. It'll say "edits" with a date. nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 11:38:23
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 30, 2014 at 12:47:57
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I measure the speed of my table the old fashioned way. I use a strobe disk and either a fluorescent light or an app on my phone to provide the strobe light. I do not think that measurement to 2 or three decimal points is the critical issue in tt speed. Of course the speed needs to be near 33 1/3 but what IS critical IMO is constant instantaneous speed, something that is not measured at all on the very accurate to be sure Roadrunner Tach.

I do not use expressions like, it blows away my previous whatever, or night and day. What the SDS did was bring me more of what I like about analog. The sheen on the strings, the separation of brass instruments, better space and depth, to wit, low level detail. More recently other additions to my tt set up have moved me closer still. These include the addition of a mechanical flywheel and a ringweight. Each of these added a bit more analog magic.

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 30, 2014 at 14:16:57
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 Several months ago I purchased Phoenix Engineering's Falcon PSU. It's being used with a VPI Scout (the rest of my system can be seen in my profile). After listening to it for about an hour I decided I had to jot down a few thoughts on how it sounded. I never do this. This PSU made such an impression on my listening experiance I felt I needed to share. Unfortunately I have misplaced those notes. But after reading Mel's post he was discribing exactly what I was hearing with the Phonenix Falcon PSU.
" What the SDS did was bring me more of what I like about analog. The sheen on the strings, the separation of brass instruments, better space and depth, to wit, low level detail. "
Three things I do remember from my notes.Relaxed detail. Cohesive.Flow.
I have never owned or heard a VPI SDS. I'm sure it's a fine unit as everything Harry builds is good quality. But this Falcon PSU impressed me so much that is a vital part of my vinyl playback. Thanks Bill for a great sounding affordable product.

PaulB just a satisfied customer

 

Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 14:27:39
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Can you explain what this means?

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 14:48:49
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 It means that the speed is the same throughout the platter's revolution, no matter over what small distance it is measured. Consider, for example the possibility of a small irregularity in the bearing of a tt such that it slows down for an instant during each revolution, and then regains speed for the remainder. The Roadrunner tach may well record the speed at a constant 33.xxx rpm, but it will sound awful.

It has been argued that tts that have constant correction mechanisms slow down and speed up virtually imperceptibly and this has a deleterious effect on the sound, though they can measure at a perfect 33 1/3. I happen to be in agreement but don't wish to argue the point now. It's been discussed here many times. If interested you can do a search.

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 14:57:51
John Elison
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Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 He is talking about wow & flutter.

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:00:03
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Thanks for clarifying; it sounds like you are talking about wow and flutter and I don't think the SDS or the Falcon (or any AC supply) can correct for that.

I've read over this thread and I don't understand what the argument is about? The SDS and the Falcon are equivalent devices: Both create a regenerated AC signal that is referenced to a stable xtal, both reduce the voltage and have frequency agility. According to the chart on the Phoenix website, they each provide all the same functionality, with the exception of the tach input and calibration mode the Falcon does and the SDS does not. I don't know if they use the same circuit or not, HW could probably comment better on how the SDS generates a sinewave, I think the Falcon uses something called DDS?

From the positive feedback from the Falcon customers, it sounds as if the sonic benefits are roughly equivalent as well. Did I miss something here?

 

Wow and Flutter, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:02:17
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Right. How does the SDS go about curing this without feedback? Does the Falcon not do the same thing as the SDS?

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:08:48
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 He is talking about flutter (micro-flutter, to coin a phrase) but not the (macro-?) flutter that has been measured by standard industry measurements.

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:17:10
Jive Turkey
Audiophile

Posts: 2409
Location: far left, geographically speaking
Joined: May 5, 2010
 There was good information in some of his posts. But the Vinyl Police showed up and ran him off.

See ya. Dave

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:25:47
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 Good riddance! We wouldn't want any information from a guy that actually builds the product. Would we?

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:26:36
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 I think I'm beginning to understand now. I know the owner of the company and I was one of their beta test sites. Personally, I like the products and agree with most of his customer's posts.

I guess I could also understand why he might take exception to someone bagging on the products, especially since there doesn't seem to be any merit to the critisisms. Other than that, just a lot of satisfied customer endorsements and a few posters trying to stir up trouble.....

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 15:46:29
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 "just a lot of satisfied customer endorsements and a few posters trying to stir up trouble....."

exactly

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 16:00:29
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > The Roadrunner tach may well record the speed at a constant 33.xxx rpm, but it will sound awful.

If it sounds awful, you don't need a built-in measurement device to tell you it sounds awful. Furthermore, the only way to correct a wow & flutter problem is to repair the turntable or buy a different turntable. Wow & flutter cannot be adjusted out.

The Roadrunner monitors average speed so you can adjust your turntable to maintain the correct 33⅓ RPM. I don't see how that can make anything sound awful. When used in conjunction with the Falcon PSU, these two components serve a function that many belt-drive turntable owners believe they need. Moreover, these two components appear to serve that function better than anything else on the market at less than half the price. I am absolutely bewildered as to why you are disparaging Phoenix Engineering for developing these highly desirable products.

> It has been argued that tts that have constant correction mechanisms slow down and speed up virtually imperceptibly and this has a deleterious effect on the sound

If it takes a verbal argument to convince someone his turntable sounds bad, then perhaps it doesn't sound bad at all. If speed correction has a deleterious effect on sound, it shouldn't require an argument to convince anyone. Furthermore, these Phoenix Engineering products do not make constant corrections in the sense of direct-drive turntables for which your arguments are intended. Instead, they are designed to find a specific line frequency that enables the platter to spin at the correct average speed. The elasticity of the belt in conjunction with a massive platter's flywheel effect are designed to minimize wow & flutter in belt drive turntables.

I guess I'm wondering what your agenda is in attacking Phoenix Engineering. From my perspective they seem to be introducing a breath of fresh air into the type of products many feel they need but are unable to afford from other manufacturers. Phoenix Engineering products appear to me to be superior to other turntable motor controllers at significantly less cost. I have absolutely no connection with the company but after reading this thread I'm seriously considering buying the Roadrunner for my Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: He deleted them. To see what he posted click on his "edits". nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 16:05:03
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > Good riddance! We wouldn't want any information from a guy that actually builds the product. Would we?

Especially if he builds a product that is better than similar products and costs less, too! ;-)

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 16:19:49
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 There is no such thing as micro-flutter. The only thing that might fit that erroneous terminology is jitter in a digital system. Furthermore, it is very unlikely that ordinary flutter even exists in belt drive turntables with massive platters. Think about it; how do you get a massive platter connected with an elastic belt to produce high-frequency speed fluctuations? Most turntables do not exhibit flutter, only wow.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 16:25:44
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Yeah, I might be a little slow on this stuff, but I'm still trying to figure out how the Falcon could correct for instantaneous "glitches" in speed thereby coloring the audio, when according to Mel, there is no way the RoadRunner tach can detect them in the first place....

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 17:22:11
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Mel is a VPI enthusiast. He owns gobs of VPI equipment. He doesn't want to believe that there is anything better than a VPI SDS, especially when it costs less than half the price of the SDS. From his arguments, it sounds like he might even work for VPI; you never know.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 30, 2014 at 17:35:06
painter27
Audiophile

Posts: 5057
Location: wi.
Joined: January 7, 2003
 I get my Sota platter spinning up to "approximate' speed using the reflex clamp, before I hit the go button. But what ever.

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 30, 2014 at 18:15:23
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 My purpose for helping the platter get spinning is to take tension off the belt. The motor in my Millennia exhibits significant drag when it is not running. Therefore, if I spin the platter without pressing the start button simultaneously, the belt is stressed in the reverse direction. The purpose of my action is to reduce stress and strain in the belt. I don't care anything about the motor because it is very rugged and powerful. Even if I don't spin the platter manually, the motor will bring the 15-pound platter up to full speed in one revolution. That is pretty good for a platter with most of its mass in a lead peripheral ring.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: HMMMMM, posted on July 30, 2014 at 19:30:26
painter27
Audiophile

Posts: 5057
Location: wi.
Joined: January 7, 2003
 Like I said, what ever.

The reflex clamp is great for giving it a start, isn't it.

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:02:10
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 John,

I'm really disappointed by this response.

What I said in an earlier post was, "Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI."

Yes I own a VPI TT and arm, like hundreds in the Asylum.

Mel

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:20:05
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 John,

You should know better.

First there is the virtually unmeasurable flutter occasioned by servos in a TT system. These are error correcting systems used in most direct disk tts. They have to go wrong to be corrected. This happens too quickly to be measured by standard industry methods, but it can be heard. I call it micro-flutter. There is some disagreement about this, and there have been many discussions here about it.

Then there are the even smaller changes in instantaneous speeds of even a belt driven tt that are corrected up to a point by such devices as flywheels and electronic devices like the SDS or perhaps the Falcon. I call this micro-flutter. I don't know if it is being measured, but it definitely can be heard. More consistent instantaneous speed is why belt driven tts sound better with flywheels, heavier platters and accessory electronics.

John, is this over your head these days?

Mel



 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:24:13
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Actually a good electronic device like these in front of the tt motor CAN reduce what I call micro flutter in a belt driven tt. That is why they sound better with the device, or a heavier platter, or a flywheel.

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:24:46
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > John, is this over your head these days?

It must be! I've never owned a turntable that exhibited audible flutter -- only wow!

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:27:43
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 You seemed to be arguing so strongly against the Phoenix Engineering hardware that I thought you might be working for VPI.

Sorry,
John Elison

 

So...how accurate were the speeds of the lathes of yesteryear? nt, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:29:07
jdaniel@jps.net
 ,

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:32:04
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 John,

Why are you accusing me of attacking anyone or any product?

As I repeated elsewhere, "Well, I'm not here to front for VPI. If you can do the same for less money that's fine and if HW wants to he will respond for VPI."

I did say that the effort mounted by the manufacturer in this thread smacked of advertising that was beyond what we normally experience around here. His posts, as the manufacturer lauding his own product, were overkill and out of line IMO.

Mel

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:46:59
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I knew nothing about this hardware except what I learned by watching the posted video. The video spoke only to the speed as measured one instant per revolution and gave a relatively tepid indication of any increase in sound quality. That's what I knew at my first post. Beyond that I said nothing disparaging about the stuff.

I'll say again, if he can produce a product that does the job for less money, more power to him.

Mel

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:56:19
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Then John, you must have discovered the perfect turntable, one whose sound cannot be improved by better quality electronics in front of the motor, a flywheel, a better bearing or a heavier platter.

You should market it John. You'll make a fortune.

But surely it's not your Technics nor your SOTA. And it is just as surely not my VPI.

Best,

Mel

 

RE: +1, posted on July 30, 2014 at 23:09:01
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Well, I just ordered the RoadRunner digital tachometer for my Sota Millennia. The Sota already has its own motor power supply with adjustable platter speed but it has nothing but a paper strobe disc to set speed. The RoadRunner will allow me to adjust speed while playing a record and maintain speed accuracy over time. I have been doing this by timing platter revolutions with my HP-48G calculator. I put a white dot on the platter and wrote a program for my calculator that would time the platter over hundreds of revolutions. As long as platter speed was adjusted fairly accurately to begin with using a strobe, the calculator would keep track of the revolutions by analyzing the time. In other words, the platter speed had to be accurate enough so that it would always remain less than one-half revolution off between any two times. Then the calculator program could figure out how many revolutions it had completed and provide the percent error in its rotational speed. Now I won't have to bother with that ridiculousness anymore because I can simply read the RPM from the RoadRunner's display.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

Advertising?, posted on July 31, 2014 at 04:50:58
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Mel- Perhaps you're right; maybe mfrs should not be allowed to post on this forum, that would prevent them from "stepping over the line" as you put it. I don't see anything in Phoenix's posts that go any further than this:

 

RE: Advertising?, posted on July 31, 2014 at 06:47:37
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 First, HW has a very special place on this forum. He has been very responsive to SPECIFIC questions from list members and tries, I think, to answer them in the least self-promotional way. His specific advice is often sought here. I cannot remember when he has disparaged the output of a competitor. Sometimes when he has been annoyed at what goes on here he has left, and his departure usually provokes a good deal of expressed unhappiness. In the post cited he has, to the detriment of VPI, suggested the wisdom of buying used. I can't remember another manufacturer doing the same.

What Phoenix has done, on the other hand, is cite a favorable review and post the following (currently edited out, but easily seen): "Actually, the Falcon PSU does much more than the VPI SDS. . . . . " IMO when posted by the manufacturer, that's advertising.

It's a thin line, perhaps, and others may see it differently.

Just for the record and to satisfy John Elison specifically, I have no connection to VPI whatever, except that I have been a user of VPI products, as have many others here. I have also been treated very well by them as a customer over many years and that's also the same as many other members of this board.

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 06:55:40
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 It's just my way of saying that measuring the time it takes to make a full tt revolution to 3 decimal places is not an important speed measure in the context of good listening. There are much more important speed considerations.

 

RE: Advertising?, posted on July 31, 2014 at 07:28:40
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 I agree with you whole heartedly. I personally do not see anything wrong with HW's post, and apparently neither do you. Who better to enlighten the membership than the man responsible for these designs. I own several VPI tables and have nothing but respect for the company and HW.

Looking back at the (edited) phoenix post you cite, it appears he was responding to your assertion that the SDS did much more than the Falcon PSU, which I think you have agreed, was a misinformed opinion. You claim no bias, and while you may truly believe that, the difference in your tone when referring to VPI vs Phoenix is glaring as others on this thread have pointed out.


I see each post has an "Alert" button on it. Perhaps using this mechanism to prevent the types of egregious abuse you see, would be a better alternative rather than creating a confrontational atmosphere.

I could cite other posts by HW where he refers to others he doesn't agree with as "morons", but it's not my place to pass judgement on someone I respect and admire.

Quote: "First, HW has a very special place on this forum."

I hope you're not suggesting that someone should receive special treatment or be given more latittude on this site because they are more popular in your eyes.

Quote: "The manufacturer chose to respond to me with, in part, the put-down of an competitive product..."

I did not see his response as a put-down; I thought it was a rather fair comparison in response to your put-down regarding the Phoenix product. HW was also comparing 2 VPI tables. I wonder how it would have looked if he had to compare one of his tables to say a ClearAudio or some other high end table? Take this one for instance, comparing a VPI table to a Nottingham:

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 08:39:25
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Reminds me of a quote I once read somewhere:

"When a thing is new, people will say it is not true. When the truth becomes obvious, they will say it is not important. Finally when its importance cannot be denied, they will say 'Anyway, it's nothing new'"

-William James

 

RE: Advertising?, posted on July 31, 2014 at 10:39:22
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 My original post was based on my reading of the OP and looking at the video. If there was an error based upon additional information not in the OP, it was up to the OP to respond, IMO. The manufacturer chose to respond to me with, in part, the put-down of an competitive product, and in what seemed a matter of minutes made several additional posts not directed at me and lauding his product. I simply pointed out that was generally not how this board works. Perhaps you didn't know that as you are a newbie.

As for "others on this thread," that boils down to John Elison. If you had been around here any length of time you would know of his anti VPI (and sometimes anti HW) tendencies. Also he and I have sparred often here on other issues like direct v. belt drives.

 

RE: So...how accurate were the speeds of the lathes of yesteryear? nt, posted on July 31, 2014 at 10:41:41
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 I think it depends on how "yesteryear" you mean. In the early days of acoustic recording the speed was all over the map. An exception may have been Edison. They specified a playback speed of 80 RPM and encouraged timing the platter for playback.

After electrical became somewhat mature I would guess record lathes were driven by synchronous AC motors. The long term stability of the line frequency was good enough to run electric clocks.

78 RPM in 60 Hz countries became 78.2609 RPM. It is slightly different in 50 Hz countries. Likewise 45 RPM is 45 RPM in 60 Hz countries and slightly different in 50 Hz countries.

33 1/3 RPM is a sort of "sweet number" in that it can be precisely derived with integer gear ratios from either the angular speed of 60 Hz (3600 RPM) or that of 50 Hz (3000 RPM).

Phil

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 10:42:50
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 2993
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 It's nice to have a new person in these parts who knows his literature. Perhaps you'll learn something about audio if you stay tuned in.

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 10:56:01
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Thanks! Looking forward to it. I hope I never reach the point where I think I know everything or can't admit when I'm wrong.

 

RE: So...how accurate were the speeds of the lathes of yesteryear? nt, posted on July 31, 2014 at 11:12:15
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Neumann AM131-A Stereo circa 1959:





Neumann AM131 circa 1966:



 

RE: Advertising?, posted on July 31, 2014 at 12:21:41
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 If there was an error based upon additional information not in the OP, it was up to the OP to respond, IMO.

Ok, that's good; I think I understand where you're coming from.

Just one more thing, if you could help clarify:

Do you feel it was someone else's fault that you were wrong, or do you still maintain that you weren't wrong by virtue of someone else not providing enough information for you to make a fully informed response?

Philosophical rationalizations are always so messy....

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 17:38:41
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I thought the Phoenix Engineering representative answered your concerns in their entirety and then you basically ignored what he had to say judging from your subsequent posts. The Phoenix Engineering guy even owns a VPI Scout according to his last sentence. Here is what he had to say to you. After that you accused him of advertizing because he answered your questions.

> Mel-
>
> Actually, the Falcon PSU does much more than the VPI SDS. Where the SDS requires you to enter a frequency in Hz
> for the output, we do the math for you and you select speed and change tempo in RPM rather than Hz (depending on
> the pulley/spindle combination, .1 RPM = .18Hz, .15Hz, .13333Hz, or .11111Hz). We also have a calibration mode
> that allows the user to dial in the base speed in 0.01 RPM steps.
>
> Similar to the SDS, we ramp the speed at start up to prevent belt "burn out" and we reduce the voltage to a
> user selected level after the platter reaches speed.
>
> We can start in 33 or 45 RPM mode, and with a 50hz pulley, can do 33/45/78 RPM without moving the belt.
>
> The Falcon is the size of a pack of cigarettes, the SDS is a 19" rack mount unit. Falcon Retail is $379, SDS is $1200.
>
> And of course, we can connect to a high resolution digital tachometer. When connected to the RoadRunner tach,
> the speed stability is locked to a 2.5PPM TCXO rather than a 100PPM xtal as used in the SDS (40x better).
>
> While the tach uses the same basic method of measuring speed as your bicycle speedometer, it does so to 3 decimal places of
> resolution and uses a 2.5PPM timebase. We don't average the speed over several revs; each rev produces a speed reading.
> The RoadRunner tach is an instrument grade measuring device, your bicycle speedometer is not.
>
> While measuring the rotational speed of the platter once per rev does not produce any W&F information, it is irrelevant to our
> purpose since it is nearly impossible to accurately correct W&F on a table with an elastic drive mechanism and we
> therefore do not attempt to do so, as explained above. W&F is best handled by platter mass, not motor control.
>
> What the video did not show, is that most turntable platters will slowly increase in speed over time (20-30 min) if the
> feedback between tach and PSU is not enabled. My VPI Scout will start at 33.325 and increase to 33.580 within one side of an
> LP if not compensated by the tach.

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on July 31, 2014 at 19:26:57
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 Thnaks for posting that John. I couldn't see that response. That does NOT seem like advertising to me but rather an explaintion of what his product does.
PaulB

 

RE: Phoenix Engineering Falcon PSU (similar to VPI SDS) review video, posted on July 31, 2014 at 21:43:21
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3537
Joined: April 23, 2007
 To those who have an iPhone, or iPod touch, there is an app called RPM. You put your device on the center weight of the turntable and it will read out the RPM. My VPI when I adjusted it varies from 33.3 to 33.4. ...worthwhile.

 

RE: Curiousor and Curiousor..., posted on August 1, 2014 at 06:57:33
samman11
Audiophile

Posts: 85
Location: Upstate New York
Joined: November 18, 2006
 What is the problem here? Why so much arguing over what appears to be a great product? I don't understand. If someone used it and it did nothing to improve the sound, then that's ok to state. But it sounds like it does even more than the highly acclaimed SDS, and some jokers here are knocking it down because they believe the inventor of this product is self-advertising??? Who cares if he is??!!!! I'm glad, if the product is all that others say it is, that he IS getting the word out. Wow. To be cut down for inventing a better mouse trap. That's sad. Sounds like what happened to Tucker with his cars.

 

Re: advertising, posted on August 1, 2014 at 08:43:34
Rick W
 My only complaint was about Phoenix posting a link to a positive review of his product. Its pretty simple -- this is not allowed on AA. If I'm not allowed to do it for my cd's (even on Music Lane), why the hell is it ok for him? It is obviously a form of advertising. Why do you think ads quote reviews?

If you don't like the rule send a complaint to the Bored. Meantime I fail to see why the rule should be applied to some and not others. The rule makes sense to me because without it AA would be awash with manufacturers/distributors/dealers touting their products by posting links like that all over AA. I couldn't even post to announce the *release* of my cd's, let alone links to positive reviews.



 

Re: advertising, posted on August 1, 2014 at 09:49:34
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 Well, you've certainly done enough advertising about your CDs on this thread.

But you are right, everyone should follow the rules. If you think someone has violated them, you should alert the moderators and let them do their job. It certainly isn't your job to enforce VA policy is it?

That's why they put this button on each post:




You also have to be consistent. If you're going to report Phonex for his abuse, then you need to report HW and anyone else when they go over the line.

It also appears that he (or the moderators) removed the offending post, so mission accomplished.

 

Re: advertising, posted on August 1, 2014 at 10:53:41
Rick W
 Jeez, what are you complaining about? Either you see the sense in the rule or not. If not, discuss it with the Bored rather than give me shit about directly telling a guy he's violating an AA rule instead of essentially being an anonymous "tattle tale". I did not contact the Bored regarding this.

As for me advertising in this thread.....

From reading my posts in this thread you wouldn't even know my name, the titles of my cd's, where to buy them, nor do you see any links to reviews.

You seem to think my "mission" was to sabotage this guy's product in some way, ignoring the fact that I said I might be interested in buying it. You want me to be "consistent" but are bugged about me telling Phoenix he can't do what I and others can't do.

The example of an HW post you linked earlier has zilch to do with what I said anywhere in this thread. I don't give a flying rat's ass about Phoenix or any other manufacturer saying good things about their products. Its so expected as to be meaningless. I expressed ZERO objections to anything Phoenix posted other than that link to a review. If/when I notice that HW or another manufacturer (or somebody else who stands to financially benefit) posts a link to a review of what he's selling I'll object.




 

Re: advertising, posted on August 1, 2014 at 11:24:13
Lakeshore Larry
Audiophile

Posts: 215
Joined: July 30, 2014
 I didn't realize I was complaining; I thought I was agreeing with you. Perhaps advertising was the wrong term; since this thread is about AC regenerative PSUs, maybe "hijacked" would have been more correct (not sure if that violates rules or not, but I think it is in bad form from what I've read). I wouldn't report it either since I'm not that thinned skinned. You certainly could have made your point without talking about your CDs though, couldn't you?

The "mission" I referred to was the prevention (or removal) of posts that violate the rules, which if I read you correctly, you contend happened in this case. No problem there either.

My reason for advocating the use of the Alert button to notify the moderators is to prevent exactly what has happened to this thread. What started out as an expose of PSUs, quickly degraded into a pissing match. That's why it's better to leave it to the authorities. Try pointing out traffic violations to an errant driver sometime and the results will be predictable. Using the Alert feature doesn't make anyone a tattle tale, it's utilizing them in the way they were intended. Confront someone when it really isn't your responsibility to do so, and you risk taking on the role of the antagonist.

But by all means, in the future do as you please, but I wouldn't be surprised at the results....

 

RE: Constant Instantaneous Speed?, posted on August 1, 2014 at 12:48:01
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "And it is just as surely not my VPI."

I'm not disagreeing with you but shouldn't I hear the speed stability of a CD over my VPI HW 19 mk3?

I don't.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

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