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Broken Cantilever, what would you do?

205.74.162.114
Posted on July 24, 2014 at 06:22:17
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Ouch! I can't get a straight answer about what might have happened, but the cantilever on the brand new to me Ortofon X-3 MC has snapped. Cat, or kids? Not sure. I do know I need to get a dustcover for my Thorens TD150.

When the cartridge was running, I did like it a lot. Sweet and musical midrange yet nicely detailed, I felt it was a bargain for ca. $150. But...

Is it worth sending off for a new cantilever? I'd basically have to put in at least as much as I paid for the cartridge. Also, I'm still playing around with the idea of replacing the Kugel arm on the deck with something, not sure what though.

Here are three ideas, please let me know your thoughts. I am also open to more.

1. Fix cartridge, enjoy deck.

2. Get a new arm and build a system up around it. My thoughts are leaning towards a low mass arm and a low output Grado from the Statement series, probably the Sonata. The reason I'm leaning this way is the table is from the era when low and ultra-low mass arms were the rage so I would expect more synergy than from any of the Rega and Rega variant arms. Also, Parasound specifically says the 47Kohm "MC" input will work well with the Grado Statement series, so I'd expect some system synergy there.

3. Get a new cartridge, probably go Low Output Moving Coil this time. I have a phono stage that will work with this, although the reviews of my preamp say the MM stage is the much more musical, so ultimately I'd probably want to try a SUT.

Those are my ideas, love to hear some input.

 

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    ...
If you do like the Ortofon, sounds like time to contact Peter at SoundSmith. , posted on July 24, 2014 at 07:10:54
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 An elliptical stylus on aluminum cantilever will cost $150.





Opus 33 1/3

 

RE: Broken Cantilever, what would you do?, posted on July 24, 2014 at 07:11:16
abs1
 What's the maximum amount of money that you're willing to spend?

Cheers,
Al

 

Match the tonearm to the cartridge, not to the table, posted on July 24, 2014 at 08:13:28
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 If you do decide to go with a low mass tonearm, that decision will affect your choice of cartridge, in that you will be best off with a high compliance cartridge. The combination of tonearm effective mass and cartridge compliance determine the low frequency resonance of the combination. There are formulae for guesstimating the optimal values; you might want to do some reading on that. But the rule of thumb is low mass tonearm/high compliance cartridge, and vice-versa. So, I advise checking on the compliance of the low output Grado you prefer before buying a new tonearm, to be sure the match is copacetic. A typical LOMC would probably not be a good match with an ultra-low mass tonearm, because LOMC's tend to have low compliance. (There are rare exceptions.) "Synergy" refers to the condition where 1 + 1 = more than 2. That's actually a rare event in audio, IMO.

 

Low eff. mass arms are not a good match with Grado wood bodies., posted on July 24, 2014 at 08:19:51
Rick W
 Grado recommends 11-16g eff. mass arms with their woodies. Call them for confirmation.

I use my Grado Master on a Morch UP-4 arm with blue dot arm tube (14g eff. mass). It works very well with the cart., and I highly recommend the arm. Its a uni-pivot.

 

List it on ebay: LIKE NEW - LOW HOURS!!! , posted on July 24, 2014 at 08:25:25
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 J/K :P

 

RE: Low eff. mass arms are not a good match with Grado wood bodies., posted on July 24, 2014 at 08:36:52
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 I will. Looking at the published compliance figures it looked to me like they would want a lower mass tonearm, but I would definitely want to check.

 

RE:LOL!!! nt, posted on July 24, 2014 at 08:48:06
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 .


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Low eff. mass arms are not a good match with Grado wood bodies., posted on July 24, 2014 at 09:16:08
spindoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 1663
Location: Virginia
Joined: December 31, 2002
 I've previously used the Grado Sonata and am currently using the Grado Statement on my TD321 with the Sumiko MMT (medium mass tonearm) to good effect IMHO and ears. Look carefully at tonearm/cartridge match if you move in this direction.
Sim

 

Had a Blue Point that whose cantilever would fail, posted on July 24, 2014 at 09:28:00
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 After two such breaks, I bought a more upscale cartridge. It has been good ever since. New cantilever is made of Boron. I forget what the Blue Point had.

 

RE: Broken Cantilever, what would you do?, posted on July 24, 2014 at 09:51:24
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 I had a Sonata and didn't like it at all....grainy, brown in character. If you like your cartridge, get it fixed and enjoy.

 

RE: Low eff. mass arms are not a good match with Grado wood bodies., posted on July 24, 2014 at 10:08:18
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 Regarding arm mass and Grado cartridges, this is the e-mail I got from Grado: "it not about the mass but about the resonance of the system
to calculate the resonance of the system
use the following formula:
Resonance Frequency= A divided by the square root of M x C
A =159
M= mass of the tonearm and cartridge,
C = compliance
Mass of a Grado cartridge is 6 grams...add to mass of tonearm
Compliance of a Grado cartridge is 20
ideal RF is between 8-12 hz
let us know if you should have any questions... end"

It's a little funny to me that they say it's not about the mass, as the only unknown in their equation is the mass of the tonearm. I ran the numbers and get the Statement Sonata should be good with a tonearm effective mass of between 3 and 13. Definitely well into low mass territory at the lower end of the range.

 

It's a Sign from God to Upgrade, posted on July 24, 2014 at 10:44:55
Stitch
Audiophile

Posts: 736
Location: Camden (New Jersey)
Joined: April 3, 2007
 be happy and support the economy

Kind Regards


 

Yeah, they can be non-commital about this sometimes. But when I bought my Master......., posted on July 24, 2014 at 10:53:20
Rick W
 the guy who distributed the Morch arm at the time told me to use Morch's 6g eff. mass yellow arm tube (which I already owned) with it. I did but didn't think I was getting all I should from the cart, so I called Grado. They told me what I said in my post, and I bought the heavier blue arm tube.

Dunno if its the case, but its possible that because the Grado designer I spoke to knew I was a long-time Grado user who'd already bought the Master he was more willing to be specific. Gotta wonder if Grado is purposely vague in order not to discourage people with lighter arms from spending money on a wood body.

The Master does track and sound better with my heavier arm tube to my ears. I was having some problems with the "Grado dance" when I had it on the lighter yellow arm tube. Those problems went away when I switched to the heavier arm tube.

 

RE: maybe keep it reasonable....., posted on July 24, 2014 at 11:46:02
user510
 Thinking about possible upgrade paths is kinda fun. But that does not solve the problem that led to this post; how the stylus got broken and the likelihood of that happening again.

Fwiw, if children and pets are around it might be a good idea to keep the turntable in good working order, but not equipped so expensive that every time something gets broken someone gets in trouble. Rather, while the kids are growing up, it might be nice for them to have exposure to a working turntable. And when they reach an age when they can be trusted to not break its parts it will still be there and working. (because you keep fixing it)

Then, after that point, one can proceed along a plausible upgrade path toward higher sonic goals.

Just one line of thinking.

-Steve

 

RE: Broken Cantilever = next stage....., posted on July 24, 2014 at 12:14:28
Solidcore
Audiophile

Posts: 374
Joined: April 19, 2001
 Definitely a sign from above that can`t be ignored.
Go directly to moving coils and SUT. Don`t cheap out get at serious MC / SUT combination - end get that dustcover.

God luck - Jan

 

Agree. I tried a Statement Platinum in a 7.7 g JMW-9, posted on July 24, 2014 at 14:00:11
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 and they did not like each other at all. Kept the VPI, sold the Grado.






Opus 33 1/3

 

+1, posted on July 24, 2014 at 17:04:06
dean man jim
Audiophile

Posts: 2287
Location: Missouri
Joined: August 8, 2005
Contributor
  Since: June 5, 2007
 My kids (now 13 and 17) have been growing up with record players for as long as they can remember. As a parent I think it's cool to see them handle LPs fearlessly and competently. They would surely display less of these qualities if they had grown up with the machines being off-limits to them.


"Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." Igor Stravinsky

 

RE: Broken Cantilever, what would you do?, posted on July 24, 2014 at 17:10:44
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 Grado's do not work well with high mass arms. I use mine with a SME 309, 9.5 mass and it resonates at 12hz (almost perfect). I have used Grado's in heavier arms and it would take out woofers many times.

 

Sure fix the cart, posted on July 24, 2014 at 17:56:12
Goober58
 Maybe even have it upgraded. Not so sure what this has to do with your other issues.

 

Kids say it wasn't them, posted on July 25, 2014 at 06:52:33
davidbeinct
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: SE CT
Joined: June 20, 2014
 I believe them. They are 12 and 18. Maybe a friend, more likely the cat. Seems the best bet is what someone already recommended, get that dustcover asap!

I am sending the cartridge in to soundsmith. I really liked it for the brief time I had it, and even if I eventually decide to play with LOMC it can never hurt to have a backup.

 

What's your definition of high mass?, posted on July 25, 2014 at 16:25:54
Rick W
 Been using a Master with a 14g eff. mass arm for a long time. Its synergistic, and Grado recommended 11-16g eff. mass to me for optimal results.

Take out woofers? Not with my 14g arm, but then its not nearly as heavy as some vintage arms.

 

RE: What's your definition of high mass?, posted on July 25, 2014 at 16:47:52
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2446
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
 I had trouble when I used a MMT arm with Grado's. The mass of that arm is 20 grams which was just too heavy for Grado's.

 

Yeah, that's definitely into high mass territory, and does seem too heavy for Grado. nt, posted on July 25, 2014 at 21:44:54
Rick W
 nt

 

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