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Does the Schröder linear tracking pivotal tonearm already has competition?

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Posted on October 24, 2012 at 13:53:36
bjh
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 From Fremer's RMAF report we have the Viv Audio Lab's Tonearm:

"Mr. Hiroshi Ishihara of the Japan-based Sibatech, Inc. showed me the unusual and perhaps revolutionary Rigid Float RFE-02H/7 tonearm. The pivot floats in oil with absolutely no other means of support, but more unusual about this design by Mr. Koichiro Akimoto is that the arm geometry features neither an offset angle at the headshell nor an "S" shaped arm tube!" [emphasis added]

Which not said to be a linear tracker, and with other obvious differences, does seem to share qualities with the Schröder (bolded part above).



 

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It doesn't sound like it from your description. /nt\, posted on October 24, 2012 at 14:43:40
John Elison
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Competition? Maybe; maybe not..., posted on October 24, 2012 at 17:23:07
tketcham
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 Hi, bjh,
I think the Thales "Original" and "AV" are conceptually similar (pivoted zero tracking error) though twice the price. Competition? Not at that price.
Thales Original tonearm

The Thales "Simplicity" is closer in price but may not be as effective. Competition? Maybe.
Thales Simplicity tonearm

Regards,
Tom

 

Competition? LT air bearing arms are a fraction of the Schroeder's price..., posted on October 24, 2012 at 18:18:58
olddude55
 Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Schroeder is making this arm. LT is the way to go in my opinion; any arm that approaches LT from a new angle (pun intended) is welcome.
But you could buy about ten Trans-Fi arms for the price of one Schroeder. An Advanced Analog MG-1 or used ET-2 costs even less. Sure, you need air but a good pump isn't expensive and using an air bearing arm is no big deal, anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
The Schroeder might be the best arm on the market--I'll probably never get to hear one, so there's no way for me to know for sure--but is it ten times better than an ROM air bearing straight-tracker?
Seems to me competition for the Schroeder arm has been around a while.

 

RE: Competition? Maybe; maybe not..., posted on October 24, 2012 at 18:28:59
John Elison
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 > I think the Thales "Original" and "AV" are conceptually similar

The concept of Frank Schröder's LT tonearm is entirely different from any previous tonearm that I am aware of. All other linear tracking pivotal tonearms have pivoting headshells to eliminate tracking error but not skating force. Frank Schröder’s tonearm has a fixed headshell with a movable base that shortens its pivot-to-spindle distance as the arm moves across the record. If it works correctly, it will eliminate both tracking error and and skating force in addition to providing a structurally rigid platform for the cartridge in the same manner as ordinary pivotal tonearms. It is quite unique and revolutionary in this regard.

 

Concept: "A general idea"..., posted on October 24, 2012 at 19:15:14
tketcham
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 Hi, John,
I figured you'd chime in about that comment. :-)

By conceptually, I meant that the tonearm keeps the headshell parallel with the groove as the stylus traces a path from edge to center. The implementation of that concept appears to be more elegant in the Schroeder design; certainly more affordable. If the tonearm mechanism proves to be reliable and consumer demand warrants investment in a "Henry Ford" approach to manufacturing to lower the cost, his design could prove to be a blockbuster.

How soon do you think a review of the LT will show up in one of the major audiophile magazines?

Regards,
Tom

 

RE: Does the Schröder linear tracking pivotal tonearm already has competition?, posted on October 24, 2012 at 20:10:15
audioarcher
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 From the description of the Rigid Float arm I have serious doubts about it's design. It just does not make any sense that it will just magically float to the right alignment on it's own.

 

RE: Concept: "A general idea"..., posted on October 24, 2012 at 21:01:42
John Elison
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 I'm hoping the Schröder LT tonearm will be reviewed sooner rather than later. Furthermore, I'm hoping the review will contain some objective measurements for tracking error and skating force. As far as sound quality is concerned, there are many tonearm's that sound good and I'm not expecting the Schröder tonearm to necessarily make a dramatic breakthrough on the subjective side of things. However, the elimination of skating force is something I consider to be as important or more so than the elimination of tracking error. I listened to the Schröder LT tonearm at RMAF and it sounded great, but I also heard a number of other tonearms that sounded great, too.

I would love to test it, but I'm not willing to spend that kind of money to buy it. However, I think its design is truly innovative and revolutionary.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

I guess "competition" was a poor choice of word - wasn't thinking commercial, rather conceptual. :) nt, posted on October 25, 2012 at 04:49:04
bjh
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 .


 

My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 06:08:55
tketcham
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 I'm more curious about how you set the initial alignment than about the details of the mechanism. There must be a calibration process in order to have the tonearm pivot point set at the correct geometry so that the stylus traces the correct path. Would a typical alignment template work? Perhaps not, since there is no overhang involved. And since the stylus is tracing a parallel alignment along the entire groove there isn't any need to set a geometry that minimizes tracking error.

What's your take on it?

Tom

 

In that case..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 06:11:33
tketcham
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 I'll stand by my suggestion of the Thales "Original" and "AV" as examples of a pivoted tonearm with zero tracking error. Different approach but similar results.

Tom

 

remember the schroeder waiting list?, posted on October 25, 2012 at 06:39:04
berndt
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 Is there going to be new production capacity or is it send a deposit and wait?
Are artisan tonearms the way to go?

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 09:32:04
John Elison
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 Well, I haven't had the opportunity to test the tonearm and I touched it only once at RMAF. However, I don't see why it couldn't be aligned by an ordinary protractor like any other tonearm.

The cartridge mounting plate appears to be movable forward and rearward. The tonearm must first be mounted at the proper distance and the cartridge must be aligned for zero offset with the arm. Then, the cartridge can be adjusted forward or rearward in the headshell for zero overhang. It should then maintain perfect groove tangency at any point on the playing surface assuming it works as advertised. Therefore, an ordinary protractor should be able to measure its alignment and be used to adjust it for zero overhang.

Anyway, that's my take on it. The alignment process should be identical to any other tonearm. If it's not, then there is something wrong with the tonearm's geometry. In other words, once you align it at any point on the playing surface, it should maintain alignment at all other points on the playing surface and that should be verifiable with an ordinary protractor such as the DB Systems protractor.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: remember the schroeder waiting list?, posted on October 25, 2012 at 11:09:15
dave slagle
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 From what i understand, ulike the SQ which is built to order, the LT is intended to be a stock item with little to no wait for delivery. I believe this will take a small amount of time to "ramp up" production since some critical parts like the armwand are still hand made by frank and as an example the treatment of the wood to make it 100% stable still takes a month.

dave

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 12:19:38
Dave Garretson
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 I'm still absorbing this fascinating thread, but it is mentioned therein that the Schroeder LT is not "strictly speaking" a linear tracker. Not sure yet how this term is qualified.



 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 13:15:50
John Elison
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 I think it is qualified very well from the explanation in the link you provided. The Schröder LT tonearm is a pivotal tonearm with the caveat that the pivot-to-spindle distance changes in such a way that the cartridge remains tangent to the groove as the arm moves across the LP. However, the arm base does not move in a parallel line with the cartridge like air bearing linear trackers for example. Therefore, strictly speaking, it is not a linear tracker in that sense, but the results are the same -- no tracking error and no skating force.

Of course, these two parameters will need to be tested and proven to me and others. On the surface, it looks like it works as advertised, but there are valid concerns by experts like Mark Kelly and Wally Malewicz as to whether it is possible to implement this type of linear tracking mechanism without introducing side forces on the stylus. On the other hand, I think the tests for alignment and skating force are very simple and can be done very easily. However, I have seen no evidence of any testing or test results as yet.

From a purely mathematical point of view, here is a graph of how the pivot-to-spindle distance must change in order for the Schröder LT tonearm to eliminate tracking error.



 

See the link why it is not a good idea, posted on October 25, 2012 at 14:10:46
hagustos
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 Link for tonearm design with underhang and zero offset straight arm:

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 14:17:55
Dave Garretson
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 I have no handle on the math, but it would be interesting to know what force must be applied to the cantilever to move the pivot assembly into tangency at each point in its arc. Frank may be onto something if this is less than what is necessary to move a "frictionless" air bearing sled of approximately 40 gm mass-- my modified Terminator.

 

RE: remember the schroeder waiting list?, posted on October 25, 2012 at 14:25:05
berndt
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 Thanks Dave, that makes it a bit clearer. It is a working prototype then?

 

but see this link, posted on October 25, 2012 at 14:59:18
BRab
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 for a different view.

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 15:23:48
bjh
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 If the span of the x-axis is representative of a typical LP (outer to inner groves) then doesn't the graph call for over 3 cm of pivot movement?

Perhaps I'm not interpreting properly since that seems like a large amount?


 

RE: remember the schroeder waiting list?, posted on October 25, 2012 at 15:43:14
dave slagle
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 I believe the prototype was shown last year and the arm shown this year is the production model.

I know frank is traveling and will back through NYC next week and I'll point him to this discussion.

dave

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 16:27:24
John Elison
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 Yes, for a 250-mm effective length tonearm, the pivot point would have to move 3.241-cm closer to the spindle as the cartridge moved inward from a 146-mm radius outer groove to a 60-mm radius inner groove. The situation would be identical to a 250-mm effective length air-bearing linear tracking tonearm.

The math is quite simple. I used the Pythagorean theorem:

(Pivot-to-spindle distance)2 = (Effective Length)2 + (Groove Radius)2

289.512 = 2502 + 1462

257.102 = 2502 + 602

289.51 - 257.10 = 32.41-mm = 3.241-cm

 

RE: My curiosity is more about..., posted on October 25, 2012 at 16:39:49
John Elison
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 Well, the arm played records at RMAF, so from the standpoint of providing the necessary force to move the arm base, it worked. In other words, the force required to move the arm base is obviously less than the force generated by the friction of the spinning vinyl against the stylus. My major concern is whether the method for moving the arm base generates any side forces on the stylus, which would be skating force. I hope it works as advertised without producing skating force, but I definitely want to see some tests that prove its effectiveness.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: See the link why it is not a good idea, posted on October 25, 2012 at 22:53:46
caligari
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 You are misunderstanding the Schroder arm. It uses a straight arm wand with no offset angle but it also has an extra pivot at the base. Your link about DJ straight arm is a completely different animal.

 

It is a different beast because it has a rotating headshell , posted on October 26, 2012 at 01:37:20
hagustos
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 It is a different beast because it has a rotating headshell so it is not a non offset straight tonearm.It is also not a true tangential tracker because rotating headshell provides not tangential tracking but it eliminates many problems of skating forces.
You can find discussions about it on DIY Audio and Vinyl Engine forums.

 

See the link for why Rigid Float RFE-02H/7 tonearm is not a good idea not the wonderfully thought Schroeder., posted on October 26, 2012 at 01:48:26
hagustos
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 Also not a rival for Schroeder because it is not a tangential tracker.

 

RE: It is a different beast because it has a rotating headshell , posted on October 28, 2012 at 17:04:36
Dave Pogue
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 The RS-A1 headshell only looks like it rotates. Actually, it is basically a straight arm, with underhang, and the cartridge does not "follow the groove" in the sense of having any kind of offset. I had one for a while and was amazed at how good it sounds. It's an ergonomic disaster but I loved it sonically.

 

Re: It is quite unique, posted on March 15, 2013 at 03:38:48
KlausR.
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Posts: 2154
Joined: November 17, 2004
 Hi John,

here are some old patents which use the same or similar approach:


http://www.google.com/patents/US3476394
http://www.google.com/patents/US3850435
http://www.google.com/patents/US3059934
http://www.google.com/patents/US4722080
http://www.google.com/patents/US2585396
http://www.google.com/patents/US2192464

Klaus

 

What Dave says, posted on August 14, 2013 at 12:41:11
Lew
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 As Dave notes, the pivot that attaches the headshell to the main arm wand of the RS-A1 is not really meant to pivot, and indeed it does not allow much movement of the headshell with respect to the arm wand during LP play. I think it is mainly to decouple the two parts of the tonearm, in terms of energy transmission.

Also, as Dave said, it does sound good with many different types of cartridge. It gets the best out of an Ortofon MC7500 that I have yet heard from that cartridge. The theory behind it, as stated by its inventor, also has a few holes, once pointed out here by Mark Kelly. Yet, again, it is a very good sounding tonearm.

Unlike Dave, I have kept mine and still enjoy it.

When I first came across the "Rigid Float" tonearm, it occurred to me that this is a high class version of the RS-A1, more than anything else. I wondered whether it is from the same inventor but apparently not. If it is cheap enough in Tokyo, I may buy one next time I visit my son who lives there.

My guess is that magnets are used to fix the position of a float that supports the pivot of the tonearm, in an oil bath. Kind of Rube Goldberg, but could be effectively near zero friction.

 

Any update? , posted on August 20, 2014 at 10:12:49
berndt
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 Did this ever make it into production?

 

RE: Any update? , posted on August 21, 2014 at 08:05:37
caligari
Audiophile

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Joined: March 20, 2008
 It is sold directly from XactAudio.com but currently it is "out of stock." No mention of when product will be stocked but the tonearm is consistently shown in recent audio shows. Maybe it's just a time consuming production, like most handcrafted items. I think it is best to contact them directly for info.

The most recent owner who posted pictures on the internet, April 2014, can be seen here: Whatsbest forum posts


 

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