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Is it live, or is it hi fi?

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Posted on January 16, 2017 at 07:46:32
Tadlo
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Is it live, or is it AR?

 

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RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 13:09:30
Michael Samra
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Great video.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 14:29:10
Jim McShane
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Everybody should watch the ALL excerpts that AES has of Edgar Villchur. They are full of remarkable information! Edgar was brilliant!

The live vs recorded clip is a favorite of mine as is "Loudspeaker Performance".

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 16:42:15
Michael Samra
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He was brilliant.I wanted to comment on the speaker cable comment because McIntosh also said the same thing in that esoteric cable performs no better than standard wire of the same thickness.This was done thru blind testing so it has relevance.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 18:01:59
airtime
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Go post that over at the cable forum. Flames shall taste your flesh!

I use a generic 14 gauge just to play it safe on both sides of the issue.

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 18:17:37
E-Stat
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Yeah, that Odin sounds 'xaclty like lamp cord. Wait - it wasn't available in 1962. :)

 

But we're better off today..., posted on January 16, 2017 at 18:36:34
Steve O
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...since both Odin AND lamp cord exist simultaneously in the same universe. Could the Odin be the gateway to more live than live? ;-) LOL!!!

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 16, 2017 at 20:45:11
hahax@verizon.net
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There is a CDR available from the AES for not too much money of the entire interview lasting about 70 minutes and it's all super, lots of info from a logical designer who gave a damn and didn't sell any magic.

When Edgar owned AR it was just a super company. Their products were excellent and their customer service was superb. If you had problems they honored their warranties, of course, and they paid for shipping both ways and would supply new boxes free if you lost yours. I even had a friend who sent his turntable back for repairs and it came back updated for free.

 

Go post that over at the cable forum. Flames shall taste your flesh!, posted on January 16, 2017 at 22:18:52
Michael Samra
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That's why I didn't post it there.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Go post that over at the cable forum. Flames shall taste your flesh!, posted on January 16, 2017 at 22:29:43
DannyR
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I fell for all of the cable stuff like 20 years ago. It's kind of embarrassing to admit now.

 

Hmmm, posted on January 17, 2017 at 05:32:31
E-Stat
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Could the Odin be the gateway to more live than live?

Is there anything more *live* sounding today than AR3s driven by MKIII amps? :)

 

RE: Hmmm...indeed!...., posted on January 17, 2017 at 06:21:24
Steve O
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...Vilchur apparently achieved the holy grail back then using what many today would consider to be highly flawed components (high feedback MKIIIs, 18ga zip cord etc.). Curiously, live vs recorded demos of that nature are almost unheard of today. One conclusion might be that most everything we need to know about high quality domestic music reproduction was known and available 50 yrs ago. Another ancillary conclusion is that current "hi end" has lost its way with its infatuation with the "pride-of-ownership" aspects of audio.

Anyway, stuff like that Vilchur interview is surely food for thought..

 

"Unheard of today", posted on January 17, 2017 at 06:28:07
E-Stat
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Perhaps because folks want something more convincing than a replicating a string quartet or "girl playing guitar". I recall there was a live vs recorded demo of a grand piano at a hi-if show some years back. Seem to recall very enthusiastic reactions.

Indeed many in that day simply couldn't imagine how high fidelity reproduction could get any better! :)

 

RE: Hmmm...indeed!...., posted on January 17, 2017 at 06:39:29
Crazy Dave
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Live performances are still commonplace, but real, unamplified live performances are a rare indeed. There is a local Irish pub around me where Celtic musicians often play without amplification, but this is unusual. I suspect most listeners have no idea what live sounds like. It affects everything in the chain from the recording up. Playback becomes a mater of tastes rather than a replication.


Dave

 

It's like a religion, posted on January 17, 2017 at 07:09:04
airtime
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Sometimes for entertainment I read postings about speaker cabling.

I always found it funny how they ignore that fact that there is an amp connected to that cable. And lets not forget the preamp and source!!! Oh yeah, and the crappy recordings that we seem to forget about and blame our stereos for!!!!

I'm kind of from the old school point of view. If my stereo is THAT picky then it isn't for me. I want something that can run on a rusty wire and still sound good with a cheap recording.

 

RE: folks want something more convincing than a replicating a string quartet or "girl playing guitar", posted on January 17, 2017 at 07:09:32
not audiophiles. "girl playing guitar" is pretty much all I hear in a show environment. ok, small jazz combo here and there.

large ensembles? forget it - unless I'm the only one in the room and the guy running it is just as sick of the "demo" music as I am.

 

Shows have to deal with many limitations, posted on January 17, 2017 at 07:19:12
E-Stat
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Not a big fan of jazz either.

In any case, a pair of AR3s cannot begin to replicate anything approaching a live rendition of a symphony performance.

Indeed few systems can, but some are able to convey a far better job of the scale and transparency of the real thing. The closest I've heard was at Sea Cliff.

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 17, 2017 at 07:53:28
BillH
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This seems like a good series, thanks for the link. Interesting to hear the views of one of the leading figures of the "Golden Age" of the hobby.

 

Isn't, posted on January 17, 2017 at 09:23:15
E-Stat
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I suspect most listeners have no idea what live sounds like.

that the truth!

 

RE: Is it live, or is it hi fi?, posted on January 17, 2017 at 09:37:57
BillH
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I watched the one about the AR turntable, which has a funny close about designing a turntable to produce great soundstaging. It comes up with the video referenced in this thread.

 

We have a lot of acoustic music concerts down here., posted on January 17, 2017 at 12:54:10
Timbo in Oz
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Plus there's usually the choir and organ on Sundays.

ABC Classic FM (national and public) both records and does real-time live broadcasts, nationally via satellite.

Artsound FM a local community/arts FM station record live acoustic concerts. I used to be one of the 'engineer & editor' volunteers. lugging mike stand and bar, plus two mikes or one twin-capsule body, plus digital recorder, PSUs and balanced cables. Will go back to it when I am well again.

Gets you in free too! ;-)

Broadcasts of recorded live concerts are pretty good. But, for me, a live direct broadcast is among the best sources, possibly because it hasn't been stored. Or, perhaps it's just my approval of the idea? {;~)}






Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

IME in a suitable venue even a string quartet can be a lot louder than most here would expect! , posted on January 17, 2017 at 13:05:03
Timbo in Oz
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Replicating an orchestra playing a highly percussive romantic era work or Stravinsky, is almost impossible in most home situations.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: It's like a religion, posted on January 17, 2017 at 21:09:34
DannyR
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My fav is them thinking more expensive usb cables sound way better.

 

I may be wrong but, posted on January 18, 2017 at 07:24:35
airtime
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I also see postings about digital cables.

I always thought that USB and other digital cables carry only "digital" information. And THAT information is converted to an audio signal.

I figure as long as those dots an dashes or ones and zeros get there - who cares?

 

RE: I may be wrong but, posted on January 18, 2017 at 10:00:03
sony6060
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It requires a very good amplifier, speakers and source to accurately recreate concert hall reverb correctly.

 

RE: We have a lot of acoustic music concerts down here., posted on January 18, 2017 at 14:54:42
Crazy Dave
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It sounds like you have a good opportunity to listen to live music, Tim. I am lucky to have some good FM stations in my area an lots of live music in the bars and cancert venues.

Dave

 

RE: I may be wrong but, posted on January 18, 2017 at 16:38:26
DannyR
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They also carry 5v of power but I still think that it's ridiculous. Belkin makes a nicely shielded cable with twisted pairs etc that's not expensive if using a regular one gives one a anxiety attack.

I once had kind of a argument with someone probably on the Digital board that insisted different programs ripping the same CD track resulted in different sound quality. I had them generate a CRC of both files of the same song ripped with the two different programs and they were the same yet the person still insisted that they were different. One bit off would have resulted in a mismatched CRC.

Anyway, the one thing that i'm proud of is that I never fell for the expensive power chord thing even at my stupidest.

 

RE: I may be wrong but, posted on January 18, 2017 at 16:59:04
airtime
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Ah the power cord. As a former electrician, do you have any idea how many junction splices there are between the breaker board and your receptacle? And crappy splices at that! that spring clip in your receptacle is a joke! Like those 1980's speaker spring clips.

 

RE: I may be wrong but, posted on January 19, 2017 at 14:42:49
DannyR
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I didn't give it much though above the cable in the wall etc isn't some super large gauge etc but after reading your post it seems even more foolish to me.

 

might I ask when was the last time you heard a string quartet live?, posted on January 20, 2017 at 02:00:01
Timbo in Oz
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I know few people who are willing to play recordings of such loud enough to match live.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: might I ask when was the last time you heard a string quartet live?, posted on February 10, 2017 at 18:14:53
used-hifi
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Tim where do you listen to these very loud concerts?, Here in the states I regularly attend opera's too and Nothing is really really loud unless some screwball want to amplify the damn thing then forget it!

Lawrence

 

Small venues and large homes. Canberra has lots of both; - eg. Embassy residences., posted on February 10, 2017 at 20:29:51
Timbo in Oz
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A string quartet can get quite loud and a piano quintet even louder. Even ones using a large Viennese-Action fortepiano, like a Graf, or a replica of one.

I also used to record and later edit, acoustic concerts for a local community FM station, ORTF array or a crossed pair on a high stand. The digital recorders we used let you know how loud things were getting.

Peaks of well above 90db were common, even if it was a small group and venue where I had to put the mikes close in. I generally tried to sit close to the mikes/stand. Even though I am much lower down than the mikes, where the level will be similar if not a but louder up away from all the soft bodies.

Editing back at the studios in one of their editing suites it was always noticeable how much quieter the sound was even with big amps into B&W Monitors, going as loud as I needed. To edit out the longer pauses and in a few cases mistakes and restarts.

Getting in for free was a perk as well! This was until I fell ill. But, I will go back to it, once I am well.

I was never able to get the same levels in the studio as a large group in our church could achieve. Say, a large choir plus chamber orchestra.

I know what overly loud amplified sound feels like, went to the movies again yesterday to see "Jackie" and the subs were in overload, and overall it was at least 3db too loud, possibly 6db.













Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: Small venues and large homes. Canberra has lots of both; - eg. Embassy residences., posted on February 11, 2017 at 10:30:58
used-hifi
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get well soon! havent been to the movies in long time jackie? Jacqueline Kennedy, well how was the movie??


 

"Jackie"? Longish & discursive reply ;-)!, posted on February 11, 2017 at 19:28:11
Timbo in Oz
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Went with Patricia (Trisha) and her sister, had a Turkish lunch before the movie, which I 'shouted.' Look it up.

Memorable day Friday, though Saturday was worse. Severe heatwave days, 40C plus and windy, so a good day to get to somewhere else. National power-grid nearing overload. Gov'ts asking folks to go to large 'energy efficient' venues, and turn home A/C off!

Turned the AC in the lounge/dining/listening room off. QUAD 63s off anyway. But left the WoHouse evap. ducted cooling going with every extractor fan running, 2 in kitchen, 1 laundry and 1 in bathroom. Left front security door avec Crimsafe mesh open, as it was in the lee of the house in relation to the WNW to NW winds. To exhaust the damp air. .......

Oh yeah, the Movie!!!??? I was mostly riveted. But I think you'ld need to be a big fan of Jackie herself, or a woman from that era to be deeply, deeply moved by the film, but I ended up admiring her courage all over again. Learnt some stuff about her.

Good movie to take your SO to, I'd reckon. Watching (Natalie Portman / Jackie) undress out of her bloodied, brain and bone spattered clothes that night back in DC in the White House was NOT sexy.

The device of having her talk to the reporter who wrote about her right after helped the story along IMO.

The standard of acting is very, very good, especially by Ms Portman.

Points of view?

Back in 1963? I was a randy tween 12? year old, a cathedral chorister (a RSCM student) and 'identified as bright' grade 7 staring High School when it all happened in Dallas.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, my wife was on a Dutch passenger ship crossing the Caribbean to Port Everglades in Florida! her family were on the way to the UK for her Dad's first long Sabbatical at U.Coll. London.

She would have been 14 when JFK died in 1963 and was coming BACK to Australia on a P&O ship via Suez, to the Royal Military College Duntroon in Canberra. Her sister Margaret and younger brother Ian were on the ship. Her Dad was Prof. of English there from end WWII.

So she's kinda 'imprinted' on cruising, and on JFK and Jackie. ;-)

I found out it was on nearby, plus heatwave, and Trisha bought the idea. We invited Margaret and it was a good half day out. I also bought/swapped the _right_ kind of Y-adaptor* cables for my multi-amped QUAD 63 based system, that is slowly coming together.

? Three SS stereo power amps for Summer - total power p.c. is 670 watts RMS. IE 1340 watts total. 63s plus four bass units in a 'Swarm' arc. All matt black. 2 by 2 *stereo bass. Uses passive line-level & active - giving asymmetric odd-order filters @ 150Hz.

Will use 1/3rd octave Eq and may add parametric. Until I can pay for ADC and DSP Eq, that is.

Trisha reckons the progress is 'glacial.' "Yes Dear!"

Should play pretty damn loud. Which brings us back to LOUD, and Mahler or Stravinsky.










Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: "Jackie"? Longish & discursive reply ;-)!, posted on February 12, 2017 at 09:34:01
used-hifi
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Kool...Appreciate the low down about the movie, I am kinda JFK buff researcher. I am a young lad 45 now but feel that even to this day his demise was the start of our countries downfall of everything!



I owned a pair of quad 63's for a brief moment same with the 57's but IMO neither could play the dynamic stuff well enough to keep them mahler comes to mind, now the very larger and larger Beveridge 2sw's that i owned COULD play like scale stuff and loud enough levels (middle 90's) without strain but these also went to the way side for what I own now and will forever..My pair of large Fulton premiere speakers.



Lawrence



 

I'll be using a 1st order high-pass at 150Hz on the 63s., posted on February 12, 2017 at 11:56:43
Timbo in Oz
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So as to retain their time and phase coherence - and - relieve them of trying to do bass. 1/4 power by 75Hz, 1/8 by 38Hz.

The four bass sources _ stereo _ will have a 3rd order low pass to match, plus eq and lots of power > 500 watts p.c.

The QUADs will be driven by a Fostex 300 pro amp that is unconditionally stable into 'stats.











Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: I'll be using a 1st order high-pass at 150Hz on the 63s., posted on February 12, 2017 at 14:13:54
used-hifi
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IMO Tim, most systems I have heard don't integrate the subs correctly they just dont have the coherency...a oneness if you will

It can be done surly but mostly not done right :)



Lawrence

 

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