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Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?

76.216.2.59
Posted on June 15, 2016 at 11:22:30
sberger
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 My dilemma. A local friend is interested in my 5's, which don't get much use these days since I acquired a pair of AR3 speakers. When I occasionally rotate in my KLH Model Six's with the 5's, they sound great, and it's niece to have a tube option now and then. But they're just not powerful enough to sufficiently drive the 3's. I already have a Yamaha M-4 for my 3's, but have never owned a Mac and my friend is offering up his 2105 in trade. From looking at Ebay, it seems that they're both in the same ballpark price wise. The 5's are completely restored. The Mac has been gone through by a reputable local tech but has not been completely restored. It's in use every day however and sounds and looks great.

Thanks in advance for your objective guidance.

 

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RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 12:45:16
Michael Samra
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Location: saginaw michigan
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 The W5ms are a fantastic amp but they are a dime a dozen..The 2105 OTOH is kicking ass on the resale markets and typically a working pair of W5s sell for about 500 to 600 dollars..Much is due to they fear of the 16309 output transformer,which has a high failure rate if people don't recap the units.
They 16309 sounds better than the larger 448 transformer because if it's nickel center core,and it is 1k higher impedance and in the Williamson that is an advantage.
The 2105 is also a fantastic sounding amp,especially with a few updates and running a tube preamp.Just on value alone,make the trade.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 13:04:24
sberger
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 Interesting. Mine have the 448 trannies. I rarely see restored pairs of W-5's for sale, and when I do they're normally in the $850-1000 range. I do see singles for sale quite a bit, but always in need of restoration.

Thanks very much for the input and advice.

 

heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 13:18:57
mhardy6647
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 I have an MC2100 -- it is not a good sounding amplifier, at least as far as I am concerned.

I've heard others besides mine (and their close relative, the MC250). Grainy and unpleasant to listen to (to my ears), even with mellow loudspeakers.


all the best,
mrh

 

RE: heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 13:23:00
sberger
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 Thanks. I know that Mac's have very low damping factors, so I'm assuming that might make them sound as you have described to some. Also dependent on the speakers one is using I would guess.

 

I'm with you :), posted on June 15, 2016 at 14:32:03
E-Stat
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 they are not particularly good sounding amps. Nor was the matching C-28 preamp.

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 14:59:48
Michael Samra
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Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
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 Yes
I do them a different way with an all film cap power supply but truthfully,it is one of the very few stock amps that sound incredible even with 55yo parts if they are good shape.I like the Williamson circuit when it's done right.The bandwidth in the W5 is super wide and the distortion is ultra low.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Notice I said they need a few updates and need to be run with a good tube preamp, posted on June 15, 2016 at 15:04:33
Michael Samra
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 The thing in this case is value. Price the 2105 is worth a lot more money and will suit his needs because he doesn't have enough HP with 25 watts and 31 after upgrades.Here is a setup with a CJ preamp and a pair of Martin Logan Arias
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 15:08:23
Michael Samra
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 As I have said,a tube preamp makes a world of difference with the 2105 along with changing the power supply caps,especially in the rail.Today's much improved caps have made a world of difference.I'm not saying it's as good as the W5m sonically however,on the right speakers,you will be pleasantly surprised.Look at the condition of the 2105 and whether or not it comes with a wood cabinet..I'm just going from a value standpoint.BTW,I don't like the sound of the 448s like I do the 309s.The thing is,if the W5s are just sitting,they are nogood to you.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 15:38:29
sberger
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 The 5's sound great when I do get them in the system.

According to my friend, the 2105(which does not come with a case) has probably only had a few resistors swapped out. Otherwise pretty much bone stock. So if I understand you correctly, from a pure audio standpoint you would be in agreement with the others who aren't crazy about the sonics of the 2105 unless it's had some significant updating. I have a couple of different tube pre's that I could use with it, btw.

I've never heard anybody who preferred the 309's. I've never heard the 309's, and I'm quite sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I did.

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 15:48:52
sberger
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What's you thought's on how these were handled?

 

Perhaps for, posted on June 15, 2016 at 16:31:25
E-Stat
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 background listening while you're watching a football game. :)

Putting a good preamp in front of a boring amp doesn't help much IMHO.

 

Well, forget the 2105 then...what about Heathkit W-7's?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 16:56:03
sberger
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 Strong consensus against the 2105 for the 5's. I appreciate your valued opinions.

He also has a pair of recently restored Heathkit W-7's for trade. They seem like they might be powerful enough for my AR3's. What would the experts say for a trade on those?

 

RE: Well, forget the 2105 then...what about Heathkit W-7's?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:04:00
Michael Samra
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Location: saginaw michigan
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 Definitely the W5ms are better the W7s...Here is what is you need to do..If your W5ms are totally recapped even with standard caps,it still makes the price go up somewhat..If they are real nice shape and have the original Genelex tubes,that pushes up the price a bit more..The 2105 is a nice amp when set up right in spite of what some say..I don't like it as well sonically as the W5s but with the right preamp,it can be very good..Look the condition of the 2105 and compare that to your amps..If the W5s were more rare,I would absolutely say the W5m but since you don't use them because of lack of power,the 2105 might better suit your needs.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Restore the Heathkit, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:06:54
airtime
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 I had a 2105. It was NO winner. Keep the Heathkit and have Mike restore it.

 

Ok this is spooky, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:12:14
airtime
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 Who posted that youtube video.

Because I think that was MY amp that I sold. It has THAT crack as well as a new in box faceplate when I sold it off.

 

RE: heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:14:18
airtime
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 You're only going to get so far with that amp. The tube pre will just make it sound it's best. Which isn't saying much considering the money you can sell it off for.

 

RE: Restore the Heathkit, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:31:01
sberger
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 Thanks.

The HK has been restored and I'm happy with it.

 

RE: Well, forget the 2105 then...what about Heathkit W-7's?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:36:18
sberger
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 Since I already have an amp that I like and more then satisfies my power needs(Yamaha M-4, with a matching C-4 pre) I'm set there. I was interested in the Mac since it came up as as trade bait and I've never had one before. But given the opinions in this thread, I think it's wise to keep the 5's. They have been recapped and more by a very competent tech, and sound great. I have 2 original Genelex tubes, but also have 2 quads of NOS RCA and GE 6L6GC's, and some reissue Gold Lion KT66's too. I've tried on a couple of occasions to sell the 5's for $800 or so, and came up empty. Plus I hate the idea of shipping them, which is also why a local deal was appealing.

Thanks again Michael for your thoughts and guidance Very helpful.

 

RE: heck no (IMO) -- ever hear an MC2100/2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 18:38:37
sberger
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 I assume you're referring to the 2105?

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 19:03:46
Eli Duttman
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Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
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 THE tube amp to use with AR3 speakers is the H/K Cit 2. A pair of Heath W6Ms or a McIntosh MC275 would be very good too.

As far as stuff with SS "finals" goes, the Yamaha is fine, but TOTALLY outclassed by the AVA hybrids linked below. Frank VA's best 100% SS offerings will best the Yamaha too.


Eli D.

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 15, 2016 at 19:34:34
sberger
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 I'd love a Citation, way out of my price range. I'm very happy with the Yamaha so not looking to replace it. I also have a couple other ss power amps for the 3's so I'm set there.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

I've heard both MC-2100s and 250s well rehabbed -- still don't care for 'em, posted on June 15, 2016 at 19:42:29
mhardy6647
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 I find them to be very coarse sounding -- with several very different flavors of loudspeakers.

Get an MC-225 if you want a Mac... a very nice sounding amplifier (again, IMO)
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Perhaps for, posted on June 16, 2016 at 02:34:23
Michael Samra
Dealer

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 The 2105 needs better caps and it needs bias tweaks as well..It can sound decent in the right setup but not in stock form.The W5Ms will sound much better to my taste, but if you need the power,the W5ms won't manage it.
A good tube preamp helps liven the amp up.Schottky diodes in the power supply along with 100uf film caps across the computer grade filter caps are also a masterful improvement.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

heh. C28. Just... ewww. , posted on June 16, 2016 at 06:35:36
mhardy6647
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 Yeah, I have one of those, too. Lucky me.

It is borderline awful. I used it for a while early in my SET days but boy was it underwhelming.

C-28 innards

In case anyone wonders WHY I keep these things... look at the prices folks pay for them. They're my rainy-day investment pieces; just before I'm forced to live out of a cardboard box & a shopping cart, I can sell em for a few more nice meals...

all the best,
mrh

 

RE: heh. C28. Just... ewww. , posted on June 16, 2016 at 08:28:40
rickl
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 But when friends come over they love the look of the C28. Just keep the volume low. That is what I do (even after a good re-cap with recommended Terry DeWick parts).

Not looking at it as my 401(k)...
looking for some jazz and a little libations - js

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 08:44:59
Crazy Dave
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 I have an M-4 and I think it a great sounding amp. The only electrolytics in the thing are in the power supply. Replace those and you have a rebuilt amp. See the link for the description of the circuit. It is very sophisticated and extremely well built.

Dave

 

RE: Well, forget the 2105 then...what about Heathkit W-7's?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 09:04:52
Crazy Dave
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 C-4 is nice too! I also have one.

Dave

 

RE: heh. C28. Just... ewww. , posted on June 16, 2016 at 09:57:39
airtime
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 I had the 26 and I liked the little thing. WHY I got the 28 was a mistery????? Hated it!

The 41 was nice

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 13:58:48
sberger
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 Mine has been completely restored and sounds great. Perfect driving AR3's(and KLH Model Six's, too, believe it or not).

 

RE: Well, forget the 2105 then...what about Heathkit W-7's?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 13:59:21
sberger
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 Agreed!

 

RE: Perhaps for, posted on June 16, 2016 at 14:01:40
sberger
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 Which is why I put the kabosh on the trade. Sounds like I made the right decision. Thank you.


 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 14:39:48
Crazy Dave
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 What was done in the restoration?

Dave

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 15:07:57
sberger
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 My tech did it. Recapped amplifier and pre sheet driver boards, added new output transistors, new multi-turn trimmers, new lamps.

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 18:02:15
Awe-d-o-file
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 I thought W-5s were tube amps. Have you heard the 2105 in your house with the ARs? I always thought early SS Mac sounded kinda dull and blah.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 16, 2016 at 18:46:05
sberger
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 They are tube amps.

No I don't own the 2105 and haven't heard it with the 3's. I'm getting the message that you're not the only one who feels that way about the 2105. The funny thing is that when I did a search, there's a lot of folks who really like it. That said, doesn't sound like it would significantly better any of the solid state amps, including my Yamaha M-4, in driving the 3's, so ultimately I'm happy that I just walked away.

 

RE: Should I trade my Heathkit W-5's for a Mac 2105?, posted on June 17, 2016 at 09:13:49
Crazy Dave
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 Mine definitely need some new lights! I need to tear into the thing, but honestly, it sounds great as it stands. I was listening to Bernstein's Candid last night and the dynamics were awesome! It is also a very smooth and musical amp.

Dave

 

NO NO NO NO, posted on June 20, 2016 at 18:27:17
Ross
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 I have a rebuilt pr of W5 and a restored 2100. The 2100 is the chassis version of the 2105; no meters or cabinet. I looks like a SS version of a Mac tube amp.

The W5 pr are among the most natural sounding amplifiers I have heard. They do not call attention to themselves. A piano sounds like a piano, no more no less, and sometimes that can sound underwhelming compared to a more colored amp. But after extended listening, you want to keep listening because the sound is so relaxed and natural.

My 2100 is dead quiet, runs cool to the touch, has tolerated shorted outputs, has been left on for weeks at a time before I realized it, and just keeps trucking along. But it sounds just "blah". Lifeless, two dimensional, no depth. The bass however is outstanding, and I currently use it to drive a pr of Heath AS103 speakers operated as subs (AS103 is the Heathkit version of the AR3a). As a subwoofer amp it is great for me.

I would not compare the two amps because in any area other than power output the Mac is so inferior that you wonder why people love Mac equipment.

I appreciate your dilemma. You need power and more than 30wpc of tube power can cost a lot of money. In the vintage world your options are limited. A pair of Dynaco MK-III can be found in your price range, but after a pr of W5, you may not like the Dynaco amps. Have you considered classic but modern tube amps ? Older Audio Research and Conrad Johnson amps can give you the power you would like, but at a reasonable cost.

 

RE: NO NO NO NO, posted on June 20, 2016 at 18:53:17
sberger
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 Thanks for your post.

I don't need power, as I have a few amps that are north of 100 wpc, so I'm set there. Just was looking at owning my first Mac and was wondering if trading amps that don't get as much use was reasonable. Pretty much opinion is as yours, so I turned down the deal and am holding on to the W-5's. I'll use them with other speakers that are more suitable for them when I want.

 

Maybe , posted on June 22, 2016 at 11:14:46
Mossback
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 I own both types. The W-5M's are by FAR the better sounding amp. Having said that I love my MC-2105. It is used for home theater and casual listening in our living room.
Your problem is the Heathkit will not drive your speakers so if you are happy with the mac through your speakers then why not?

 

RE: Maybe , posted on June 23, 2016 at 14:43:41
sberger
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 It's true that the 5's won't drive the AR3's satisfactorily, but if you read through the thread you'll see that I'm covered with other amps that will. Given the overall blah ratings that the 2105 seems to have from the folks responding to my original qustion, trading the 5's for the 2105 would not be a very good deal for me.

Thanks for your response.

 

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