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Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought

74.66.15.180
Posted on January 30, 2016 at 06:27:45
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 Recommendations wanted for vintage 70s era small bookshelf East Coast sound speakers similar in quality, sound & size to the Dynaco A-10 and the Advent/3. I Seem to be having trouble locating a decent pair (or any pair at all in the case of my most preferred choice, Dynaco A-10s), so I figured this would be a good time to check out more carefully other brands of the era I've always heard about but never had the opportunity to test drive personally, such as EPI, ADS, Boston Acoustics, etc.

 

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RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 30, 2016 at 07:19:34
Poinzy
 See if you can get hold of copies of the Boston Audio Society newsletter. The BAS recently did a comparison of mid-sized speakers and they may have done the same with small, bookshelf speakers as well.

The recent study, IIRC, included "vintage" speakers as well as new ones. The BAS newsletter is a far more useful source of info than the current generation of consumer audio "journals".

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 30, 2016 at 08:09:41
realistico
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Posts: 1303
Location: New England
Joined: January 12, 2003
 Small 70's era speakers like the EPI 70 and Boston A40 are pretty good, and they used to be quite common, although they will need to have the woofers refoamed since the original foam will be gone by now. I used to see them all the time, sometimes for practically nothing since people think refoaming is a big deal. I would definitely recommend the Boston A40 series 1 over the series two because the woofer is much easier to refoam. Having said that, and having owned those I prefer other speakers to listen to. For a small vintage bookshelf speaker I prefer ADS, something in the 400 series, either the 400, L400, L420 or L470. Or the Later L7e which I like more than the bigger L8e. If you want even smaller, the ADS L300 minispeaker is very nice, but I have found that it does better with more power, and does not to me sound as good with tubes.
Of course, finding any of these can be a challenge, you either have to haunt thrift stores, yard sales, flea markets, etc. or bite the bullet and pay 'retail' price on eBay or craigslist.

Actually, if you want a NEW speaker that approximates a vintage bookshelf, (and you don't mind buying made-in-China) I would look at the Dayton B652. I have a pair and they sound pretty good, in the sense that they don't do anything bad-- they are not harsh and fatiguing. Just a simple little speaker. And they only cost 30 bucks for a pair NEW from Parts Express. For 60 bucks (pair) you can buy a new version the B652-AIR with an AMT ribbon tweeter, that is supposed to be even better. Try 'em and send them back if you don't like them.
good luck,
--Matt
"When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot."
--Dalai Lama

 

there are so many... you might want to try an EPI 60 or 70, posted on January 30, 2016 at 08:54:50
mhardy6647
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  Since: October 23, 2016
 Or an AR-18.
Or an AR-6.
Or an AR-7.
Or an AR-4ax.
Or an ads L-400.
Or an ads L-470.
Or the original version of the Polk Audio Monitor 4 or the larger Monitor 5.
Or a pair of monitors built to the BBC LS3/5A specification.
Or...



all the best,
mrh

 

heh -- I shoulda read your post before I posted! :-/, posted on January 30, 2016 at 08:56:11
mhardy6647
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 What else is new? :-P

Our tastes are pretty similar (and, I might add, clearly impeccable).

;-)
all the best,
mrh

 

Didn't we just go through this long discussion a few posting below, posted on January 30, 2016 at 09:57:01
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 So what gives?

You're poking around at the Dynaco A-10. A speaker that for lack of a better review - sucks.

charles

 

RE: Didn't we just go through this long discussion a few posting below, posted on January 30, 2016 at 10:09:29
Poinzy
 Is it OK with you if the rest of us have a discussion anyway? Thanks.

 

RE: Didn't we just go through this long discussion a few posting below, posted on January 30, 2016 at 11:42:35
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 No

 

RE: Didn't we just go through this long discussion a few posting below, posted on January 30, 2016 at 12:46:25
AudioSoul
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Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
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I'm with Charles. I don't know why you mentioned the Dynaco A-10's, if you have heard them and liked them or you figure the A-25's have a good rep so you think the 10's will sound good. Well, they don't! I would look elsewhere......

 

Why Vintage Speakers?, posted on January 30, 2016 at 16:52:17
spindoctor
Audiophile

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Location: Virginia
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 Curious about your intentions with these and system match.

 

Yep, posted on January 30, 2016 at 18:13:16
realistico
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Posts: 1303
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 Though these days I've been more into single driver speakers and low power amps...
But I still manage to accumulate...more...stuff...

--Matt
"When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot."
--Dalai Lama

 

you, sir, need a pair of Altec (or GPA) Duplexes :-), posted on January 31, 2016 at 05:42:33
mhardy6647
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 Like full-range loudspeakers, but better balanced (to my ear).

DSC_8060

No dig against FRs, though -- more than a couple of them skulking around here, too, as you know ;-)


all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Why Vintage Speakers?, posted on January 31, 2016 at 05:47:50
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 Well, since you asked, this is how the story goes:
Being 65 years old, the golden age of "universal" high quality home stereos (the 70's, of course) was a close contemporary of mine. After a few initial years spent with a set of Large Advents back then, I'd been living with and enjoying my "mid-fi" setup of Dynaco A-25s driven by my '76 Kenwood KA-6100 Amp for many decades before storing them away for another day about 8 years ago (another story). Upon my retirement & consequent change in lifestyle to different degrees, I had initially intended upon setting them up again as is/was. The process made it apparent to me, though, that my present bedroom, where I want this system (the living room is currently & for anytime in the foreseeable future, being setup & utilized as a home recording studio) is too small to handle the A-25s, physically & sonically (especially the bass), as the room is a meager 8x10. Since I would be looking for smaller bookshelf speakers as a substitute, I decided to make a move into the modern world & find a new set that met my needs. While the modern speakers I've thus encountered are fine"r" for Classical & Jazz (after extensive research & as much in person trial as I could reasonably manage, I've settled on the Kef Q100s), my main listening lines at this time, they just don't cut it when it comes to my familial classic rock tunes.
Whether or not those old East Coast sound boxes were better or worse at technical accuracy than other newer more advanced types/designs, my old familiar melodies sound odd on these new fangled contraptions, I want the old vibe back! Probably partially due to the fact that they were recorded with the equipment of the day in mind, of course, & partially due to the fact that it's just the way I remember, treasure, & expect them to sound. Consequently, I intend for these admittedly "lesser" A-10s or Advent/3s to share amp space with my Kefs on the B channel of my newly acquired Marantz PM6005, to be called into service when the rock needs ta roll, or set them up side by side with the Kenwood if sonics so demand.

 

RE: Try Sansui AS-100s , posted on January 31, 2016 at 07:24:20
FRG7SWL
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Posts: 2109
Location: NorCali
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 Raymeedc, a pair of Sansui AS-100s should easily fill your need for vintage compact speakers capable of delivering auld-skool rock vibe. Bypass tweet control, update crossover capacitors with 4.7 uf polyprops of choice, & enjoy classique alnico robustness. Sent a pair up to Nevada City 8 years ago, with Rotel RX-602 amplification, which are still going strong. Sounds great for home theatre duty, also. ... If you must have A-10s, however, update stock woofs with Eminence Patriot-series 620Hs. Your Marantz PM 6005 will appreciate that hemp-coned finesse. 73s para Sactown

 

Truth be told, posted on January 31, 2016 at 08:56:34
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 One of the areas that modern technology has done well by improving upon is speakers. Truth be told vintage vs. new speakers are vastly different. Reason is because of the advances in crossover testing technology and the drivers materials and construction.

Most, and I do mean most drivers/speakers are not "modern" in sound. What they are is more accurate in FR, impedance swings, etc... Sound obviously is and can be a different issue.

What you are looking for is a paper cone woofer the more mimics a warmer vintage sound.

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 31, 2016 at 09:39:29
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 Boston A40s and smaller ADS are a good choice, as are the Paradigm Titans, but I don't know why the Realistic Minimus 7 hasn't been mentioned. Certainly fits the size requirement.

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 31, 2016 at 09:46:16
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 Thanks, I'm considering all of these helpful suggestions. Speaking of ADS, by the way, any opinions on the ADS L520? Also, just having come across mention of these since yesterday, are these small enough for my purposes?
In addition, I might have a bead on a pair of Advent/4 speakers, but I'm being put off by the fact that one of the tweeters is dented in a bit. The experienced seller says he's pulled out enough of them in the past to know that this particular one might be damaged in the process. Although the seller declares this to be merely cosmetic, logic tells me that the sound must be affected in some way. At the lowish volumes I'd be running these speakers at, would that be an issue, or should I steer clear?

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 31, 2016 at 11:12:20
Ross
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Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000
 ADS L420 is abt the size of the AR4x. Tight bass, clear midrange and good treble extension. Easily driven by a modestly powered receiver or amplifier. They sound more "modern" than an Advent 3, or AR4x to give points of reference.

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on January 31, 2016 at 13:01:44
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 I see a lot of good things written about ADS speakers, but don't know much about the model differences. What are the differences between the 400, L400, L420 & L470 (any more fours?), the ADS speakers that seem to be in the size range I'm looking at?

 

One simple solution . . ., posted on January 31, 2016 at 13:06:21
M3 lover
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 Utilize your A-25s!

Back in the '70s one local record store had two pair of A-25s mounted at ceiling corners pointing down at 45 degrees. They sounded surprisingly good and with a wide range of music. Two pair were needed as it was not a huge store but much larger than your bedroom. I would avoid corner mounting since the 3-plane intersection would likely produce too much bass and imbalance the sound.

Are your A-25s original? If so I'll also suggest upgrading the cap in the crossover to a better quality modern one of the same value. Also, I prefer removing the wire screen from the tweeter. At ceiling hight there is little chance for damage to the dome tweeter. ;^)

Also a few Inmates have recommended upgrading the tweeter. Do a search to find specifics.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: One simple solution . . ., posted on January 31, 2016 at 13:40:13
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 ..... & my search is unexpectedly over, just like that (hopefully..... best laid plans of mice 'n men & all that jazz, ya know.....) by just half an hour ago coming across a local (close enough, anyways) pair of '79 Advent/4s in very good condition, refoamed just a couple of years ago. I talked to the seller on the phone, who promised to hold them for me until he has the time for me to go over & pick them up on Thursday. These were my sentimental choice, as I actually bought a set new back around 1980 when I was a young man. I had just enough money at the time for a bottom line mid-fi setup, which consisted of the entry level Kenwood KA-3500 integrated amp & a Phillips turntable, which left me shy of the cash to purchase my preferred at the time Large or Smaller Advents. Consequently, I wound up (happily, it turned out) with these Advent/4s until they were replaced a couple of years later with the Dynaco A-25s.
Only problem is, I set my monetary limit at $49.50 & this guy wants $50! I'll do my best to talk him down, but if that turns out not to be doable, I guess I'll have to pass on them & keep looking.
Thanks, everyone, for your helpful suggestions. They may very well come into play at some not so future date, but whether or not that turns out to be so, I'm glad to have accumulated the associated additional knowledge & introduction to some relatable speakers I hadn't previously known much about.
P.S. - I'd still like to know the difference between the ADS 400, L400, L420 & L470, if someone could/would let me know.

 

I know why I didn't mention the Minimus 7..., posted on January 31, 2016 at 15:17:28
mhardy6647
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  Since: October 23, 2016
 because I don't think they sound very good at all.

Even for 19 bucks a pop (then half-price), which is what I bought a pair for, long ago, during one of the monthly R/S sales.

all the best,
mrh

 

re: the ads loudspeakers, posted on January 31, 2016 at 15:28:28
mhardy6647
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 The L-400 is "almost" a true minispeaker (a la the Visonik David or R/S Minimus 7), although larger than the L-300 (which is more directly comparable to the Visonik or Minimus).

The L-420 and L-470 are larger two ways, but smaller than classic ads two-ways like the L-500. They're both quite nice; the L-470 came later (I think), is a little chintzier, and may be quite inexpensive. I have a pair of L-470s that was given to me -- I find them to sound very, very good for their size and fairly modest construction values.

The link below is the single best clearinghouse of ads info -- but it's just a directory of files, so some rooting around will be needed :-P

The parent website for the link is: http://www.kallhovde.com/Njord%20Noatun%27s%20Vintage%20Audio%20Resources.html

all the best,
mrh

 

dimpled tweeters rarely have any audible issues IME (nt), posted on January 31, 2016 at 16:53:56
mhardy6647
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 nt
all the best,
mrh

 

By the way, , posted on January 31, 2016 at 18:25:25
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 while we're still on the subject, I can't find anything anywhere on the internet about the Advent/4 speakers, excepting in one post that places it in Advent's historical lineup with a one line technical blurb. If I hadn't the personal experience I do with them, I'd know next to nothing about them. Has anyone else had any experience with these at one time or another? These, by the way, were the replacement for the original Advent/3 bookshelver, albeit with an 8" woofer replacing the Advent/3's 6 incher. They were afterwards replaced with the 2002.

 

this is probably the info you found(?), posted on January 31, 2016 at 19:04:37
mhardy6647
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 Link below.

I know nothing 'bout the Advent/4, sorry.


all the best,
mrh

 

RE: this is probably the info you found(?), posted on January 31, 2016 at 19:29:49
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 Yes, that's the lone sentence in any post I've yet to come across on this or any other site.

 

Yes, posted on January 31, 2016 at 19:54:52
realistico
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Posts: 1303
Location: New England
Joined: January 12, 2003
 The 4xx series all are two way speakers with a dome tweeter and a woofer of around 6.5 (close to 7) inches. They are fairly small bookshelf speakers, around 19 inches tall, if memory serves. As the years went on, the cabinets seemed to get lighter, and changes were made to the drivers. The L400 and L470 are both listed in the 1986 pricelist, so they were sold at the same time. They have the same size drivers, but the L400 has a much smaller cabinet, which some say affects the bass response adversely. The L420 is an earlier speaker, and after the L470 time wise, came a revamp of the ADS lineup which gave us the L7e, a similar sized bookshelf speaker with a new woofer and a non-sticky dome tweeter.
I also own an early pair of ADS speakers that are simply marked 400, with no "L". They are also 2 way bookshelf speakers with the same size woofers and sticky tweeters like the L420 and L470. With similar sized cabinets as well. Though these 400's had foam surrounds on the woofers rather than the usual butyl rubber. Apparently, the early ADS speakers did have foam woofer surrounds but my understanding is that they quickly switched to the rubber. I also have a pair of ADS 500 speakers, which again, would be in the family of the L520 and L570. These, however do have rubber woofer surrounds...
--Matt
"When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot."
--Dalai Lama

 

probably worth mentioning the Braun/ads connection --, posted on February 1, 2016 at 05:04:31
mhardy6647
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 although I've never quite understood it :-P

My impression is that early ads products were Braun OEM, or used Braun OEM components (?). The product lines were long similar, but at some point diverged.

I imagine that teh webs is rife with info on this, but I've never been quite interested enough to look into it deeply.

That said, I was and remain a big fan of the sound of the classic ads loudspeakers; very easy to drive & very easy and satisfying to listen to.

Many of them have cat-proof perforated metal grilles, too! ;-)


all the best,
mrh

 

did you try www.classicspeakerpages.net, posted on February 1, 2016 at 05:12:32
mhardy6647
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 or, I suppose, more to the point, their forum?
Link below.
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on February 1, 2016 at 05:42:16
AudioSoul
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Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005
I had heard that ADS speakers needed more power to sound their best. Is this not so?

 

No, that's not my experience (at all), FWIW, posted on February 1, 2016 at 06:23:30
mhardy6647
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 P1020547

Indeed, the two pair that currently live here (L-710 and L-470) are very happy* being driven by, e.g., push-pull EL84 amplification (ca. 12 wpc) and, in the case of the L-710, even single-ended 2A3 (3.5 wpc).

I really cannot say enough in praise of ads loudspeakers of the 1970s & 80s. I'd have bought a pair in 1978 when I bought the Polks, but were they not so expensive. At this late date, a pair of good ads loudspeakers is very affordable to vintage audio nutcases (like me!) and well worth seeking out and acquiring, in my hardly-humble opinion.
___

* Well -- THEY may or may not be happy, but I like what I hear! :-)


DSC_0184

-- yeah, yeah -- that's a soiled-state amplifier ;-)


all the best,
mrh

 

Now you've done it!, posted on February 1, 2016 at 07:33:57
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 Basil (my British Shorthair cat), while reading over my shoulder, caught the crack about cat-proof grilles..... consequently, it looks like he's gonna give me a hard time sneakin' a pair past him into the house (ever see Pet Cemetery?..... that's a British Shorthair..... 'nuff said).

 

More than you want to know, posted on February 1, 2016 at 08:03:41
realistico
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Posts: 1303
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 These threads over at that other place
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/a-d-s-line-pecking-order.44406/
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/ads-models-an-impromptu-rollcall.69719/

Just a bit of light reading...
--Matt
"When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot."
--Dalai Lama

 

RE: No, that's not my experience (at all), FWIW, posted on February 1, 2016 at 08:22:51
Crazy Dave
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 PP UL EL34's (Dynaco Mark IV's) drove my L410's to about as loud as I would have ever wanted in the 80's. Both then and now, I listen/listened to all types of music, but rock and classical dominate.

Dave

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on February 1, 2016 at 08:27:39
Crazy Dave
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Location: East Coast
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 The sound is very similar up and down the line, with the amount of base, ability to play loud and the efficiency being the major difference. The bigger ADS were very efficient, played ear-damagingly loud and had subterranean base (1290/1590). They did not make and bad speakers that I am aware of.

Dave

 

RE: I know why I didn't mention the Minimus 7..., posted on February 1, 2016 at 08:31:13
Crazy Dave
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Posts: 14371
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 There certainly did not hold a candle to ADS, but for my non-audiophile friends who wanted decent sound for cheap, they were a good recommendation, especially when paired with a subwoofer. You could definitely do worse for more on the mass-market.


Dave

 

RE: Truth be told, posted on February 1, 2016 at 08:37:12
Crazy Dave
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 New speakers certainly have objectively gotten better. I am not sure they are as pleasant to listen to as my Spendor BC-1's. Most of what I have head calls too much attention to themselves. I hear the speaker, not the music.

Dave

 

Braun - A/D/S - Sequerra, posted on February 1, 2016 at 09:11:08
Bill Way
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The Braun/ADS speakers were all good, with the full-size (not bookshelf) 710 something of a standout. There are lots available.

One other was the Sequerra Met 7 Mk II. Physically small, but on stands away from walls and with good amplification, they can astonish. Good mids/highs, though not quite as smooth as the Spica TC-50s, with a deep, punchy bottom end. Terrific imaging - if set up right they disappear. Mine loved being driven by tubes (cj MV75A). Playing "The Wall," even in the middle of the day was frightening. Unfortunately, they are hard to find. I never heard the many other versions of the Met 7, so don't know if they all that the magic. Should never have sold mine.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: Braun - A/D/S - Sequerra, posted on February 1, 2016 at 14:57:50
Crazy Dave
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 We think alike. I suggested the Sequerra below. They are still available new.

Dave

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on February 3, 2016 at 09:11:33
krankkall
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: New Mexico
Joined: April 5, 2014
 I have a number of small, vintage speakers..........................

Dynaco A-10
EPI 70C
ADS L10 (basically an ADS L400)
Celestion 3
ROR studio monitors

IMHO, the smaller ADS speakers are pretty darn GOOD for the money!
The Dynaco A-10 speakers are probably the worst of a very good lot, because the quite large Seas H87 tweeter rolls off too early.

Steve

 

Godehard Guenther was literally a rocket scientist!, posted on February 3, 2016 at 12:54:33
E-Stat
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 Hired by none other than Werner Von Braun

His passing...

I regret not meeting him on an occasion he came by the shop where I worked. I knew in advance and left my modified LV1020s there for him to see. He thought they were interesting, but noted I had wired one driver out of phase. :)

We also sold Dahlquist so I fashioned a similar separate baffle for the tweeter and midrange and plugged the holes in the cabinet. I inverted the cabinet for closer driver spacing and placed the baffle on top.

edit: critical omission of word "not"!

 

RE: Small Speaker Suggestion Solicitation Sought, posted on February 3, 2016 at 17:01:45
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 A bit surprised nobody suggested the Advent/3..... they don't measure up?

 

Well..., posted on February 4, 2016 at 14:18:03
realistico
Audiophile

Posts: 1303
Location: New England
Joined: January 12, 2003
 I have had a pair of Advent/3's and they do have some advantages:
They are small.
They have rubber woofer surrounds, so won't need refoaming and shouldn't need repair.
They ought to be inexpensive.

It has been my experience that in terms of sound quality, there is the original Advent speaker, which became the 'Large Advent' (then the New Large Advent) and the 'Smaller' Advent. And then there are all the other speakers with the Advent name.
Though I do like the speakers that go with the Advent 400 radio...

--Matt
"When you think everything is someone else's fault, you will suffer a lot."
--Dalai Lama

 

RE: Well..., posted on February 5, 2016 at 18:33:50
raymeedc
Audiophile

Posts: 76
Joined: February 1, 2008
 While acknowledging the "fact" that they may be viewed upon as a little on the large size for a bookshelf, but considering they're to be used on stands, while taking into consideration my increasing willingness to push my size limitation boundaries to the max, how do the Dynaco A25s compare to these somewhat smaller suggestions?

 

RE: Braun - A/D/S - Sequerra -- Agree re 710, posted on February 7, 2016 at 01:15:52
goldenthal
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Posts: 1001
Location: Ontario
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 I recall hearing the 710 and the 810 in the same room with the same amplification, &c. The 710 was, to me at that time, the better (more neutral) of the two. I thought the 710s performed admirably and better than most of their competition at the time.


Jeremy

 

the L-710 is a nice, easy to listen to (and easy to drive) loudspeaker (nt), posted on February 8, 2016 at 12:37:18
mhardy6647
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 P1020547
all the best,
mrh

 

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