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Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?

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Posted on November 17, 2015 at 07:17:18






I have read many posts and comments here on AA and elsewhere, that vintage iron (transformers) are of better quality than their modern counterparts.

I suspect that there may be some credence to this judged on nothing more than listening - Don't known for sure though.

Was the metallurgy better back in the 50's and 60's? Im just thinking out loud and don't wish to start any pissing match.






 

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Like most anything, posted on November 17, 2015 at 07:41:26
Awe-d-o-file
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There is no line on the sand. I'd say overall I prefer vintage BUT there are many examples of high end stuff made today that is better than the old stuff.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 08:02:12
airtime
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My father worked in a factory that made ONLY transformers for over 40 years. And I worked there during my summers. So transformers are in our blood so to speak.

Bottom line is a well made transformer today is just as good as a well made transformer of the 50's.

The manufacturing and production process is virtually the same as it was 70 years ago. the bulk of the transformer is hand made with only a few steps in the process automated. But believe it or not a lot of it is still hand made.

So the only difference is component quality whick varies very little in actuality. The same company making the laminations for cheap trannies also make them for the expensive trannies. Same metal - different specs. the copper wire comes in by the truck load in HUGH spools. Same lacquering and painting process, etc....

So no there is no magic to vintage trannies. Only the actual specs.

charels

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 08:27:08
FRG7SWL
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Geezerrocket, Hashimoto Tranformer's site should provide you with a few answers. They made the transformers which powered all that delightful Sansui gear.

 

Very Interesting to know..., posted on November 17, 2015 at 08:28:42
Brian McGowan
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as I never knew most of the Transformers are handmade thru most of the process?

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 09:29:08
6bq5
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Airtime,
I would echo your comments - adding only that there are some modern materials that have made it possible to get better specifications today than was possible 60+ years ago - mostly having to do with insulation -
which leads to a denser set of windings, lower capacitance and higher frequency roll-off points-

That said - a great transformer is still a great transformer - and a bad one is horrible - no matter when it was built-
Happy Listening

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 14:31:50
Scholl
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There may be some techniques that companies used that aren't known by current builders.

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 14:40:36
krankkall
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I've used modern (Edcor and Hammond) and vintage (Merit, Chicago, and Triad) transformers, and truthfully?
Couldn't tell the difference either way.

Steve

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 17, 2015 at 18:06:52
Ross
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Sound vs specs. Modern transformers defiantely measure better than older ones. Measurements I have seen of golden era iron shows most produce abysmal square wave response and severely rolled off HF under an average speaker load. Newer iron often measures ruler flat (or close) and deliveres excellent square waves. Yet there are many that will say older iron sounds better. Some have theorized that metal core composition has changed over time. That modern non carcinogenic potting material sounds different. That 50yrs of passing electrical signals has a beneficial effect. Who knows. Where most agree is that there are several golden era tube amps that are certainly competitive with new amps available today. And they definatly use old transformers. What I would like to see is a comparison of the iron from say a vintage Heath W5 or Eico HF35 and a new Prima Luna or Rogue tube amp. I think the results would be surprising.

 

RE: Very Interesting to know..., posted on November 18, 2015 at 05:13:56
airtime
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Even with today's automation you would be surprised at how much of the process is still hand done. It's by virtue of how it's put together. A lot of hands are involved.

I was even surprised when I worked there how "primitive" it could be. Wire winders by hand crank, a guy with a spray gun, tester points, lead makers, etc...

charles

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 18, 2015 at 08:40:48
Crazy Dave
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I have been aware of Hammond for years. I just recently started to look at Edcor. They have some nice offerings at reasonable prices.

Dave

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 18, 2015 at 10:04:29
krankkall
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Be aware that Edcor transformers are made-to-order, to cut down on costs.
Expect to wait roughly 4 weeks, from time of order, to time of delivery.
In my book, Edcor's GXSE single ended output transformers....'might'.... be THE best bang-for-yer-buck OPT's out there?

Steve

 

here is something to think about, posted on November 18, 2015 at 14:57:18
merdy
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i am an ee and mas in phy/math , i wound my first transformer in 1980 it was a simple ei but i was completely fascinated with the effect of magnetism and the magnetic domain,and electromagnets,i did not stumble into audio transformers until i met a guy called manley in 81 who showed a vtl amp driving 4 ls35a clamped and stacked like a line array with only 1 tweeter connected it blew my mind what that would do, as i only heard some leak and quad amps in friends parents homes
while studying i repaired some progear and musican amps and learned a lot more and visited a lot of manufactures etc fast forward to 89 i moved to kyoto and met some crazy audiophiles and was introduced to my first wide bandwith transformer(tango), i moved to nyc and started diy and fixing musican stuff(they were cool and had good weed)and started experimenting with mixing and experimenting with transformers, i also had kumoro wire one of my businesses for hvac/lightining i was that close to the diy world, so i have heard just about every transformer made as i sold lots of the stuff to japan and France(i am sorry i needed the money),i still use vintage and new stuff and can say they all have some unique character so every circuits deserve to try at least 2types but specs are similar so its really only the kind of wire used and how the load reacts
for example i have tried some peerless and dyna swaps in a mk 3 and altec amps and also some arcosound 330 and 350 ,i once installed a old monster fisher trans in a well known musican amp and he was floored with the increase volume he got and low end,i do less experiments now and have magnequest,elactraprint,tango,and the likes and lots of vintage from unknown to the arcosound 350 (animal)

now that i have done bragging lets talk science

i made a habit of attaching magnets or coiling my screwdrivers with dc so when i used them for repairs i always had control of the screws in tricky places
so i think its the actual quality of steel and its magnetic properties and i have no proof or even any data to support this but reading this wiki article might help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

and yes transformer designers and manufactures should be given all the love and business and respect
sometimes i look at the little dyna st 35 or the magnequest rs 025 and wonder how these things make music ,must be black magic
Silence is golden duct tape is silver

 

RE: here is something to think about, posted on November 18, 2015 at 16:12:43
Great post!

Lots of good info there.

I was just curious because I am considering a no holds bared 60 - 90 wpc push pull KT88/6550, KT120, or KT150.

I would be interested in your recommendations.

Thanks


 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 18, 2015 at 18:33:01
Bold Eagle
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OK, here's a few thoughts. A lot of the so-called "comparisons" of transformers are done in an amp. So the circuit used may have a lot to do with it. A lot of modern amps are minimizing NFB, and that changes the source impedance, which changes the interaction with speakers, as compared to a 60's amp with a lot of NFB. So that's not a valid method, just as the usual triode Vs pentode output comparison, as the source impedance changes. That's also true of SETs Vs push-pull designs - the source impedance is wildly different.

I did that myself decades ago when I compared a Dynaco ST70 to a McIntosh MC225. They actually measure pretty equally as far as power output into load resistors goes. The Mac is under-rated, the Dyna over rated and both clip at around 34-35 W/ch into 8 ohms. Testing both at 25 watts/ch, the Mac has flatter power response, owing to a larger core and less core saturation at low frequencies around 30 Hz, and because of the penta-filar windings there is a lot less leakage inductance, so the high frequency power output is a lot flatter. However, hooking both to a pair of KLH 17's, they sounded the same as they measured nearly identically from 40 Hz to 15 kHz at 25 W/ch., and that's pretty much the range of those speakers.

Jerry

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 18, 2015 at 20:25:15
dls123
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As said below, there are great tranformers from all eras...and lousy ones. There are plenty of great transformers wound today if you want to spend the money. The Edcor and Hammond ones will make a very decent amp. There are many boutique winders who will make great iron for more money. One main difference between cheap and better iron is core saturation at LF. You pay quite a bit more to get iron that will be flat below 25Hz vs iron that will have good mids, but start to roll off below 40 Hz or so in the same circuit.

 

Did you ever test out of circuit, posted on November 19, 2015 at 06:15:36
airtime
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You need a known voltage supply, signal generator, scientific grade oscilloscope and a working knowledge of the formulas used that apply to transformers.

Then AFTER all that - so how does it sound in my stereo????

welcome back Jerry!!!!

I have to shoot you an email. Lottsa audio stuff happening. But good and simple stuff.
charles

 

RE: Did you ever test out of circuit, posted on November 19, 2015 at 06:39:59
Bold Eagle
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No, I haven't; although I have all the instruments needed. But now that I have the tools, I no longer have the transformers. (or much interest)

Jerry

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 19, 2015 at 09:19:44
Crazy Dave
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I have, for a long time, suspected that the primary difference in the "sound" of amps is due to their performance at or near clipping. Of course source impedance is important too, particularly when the speaker has a complex load. I have also noticed with transistor amps, that the lower powered amps of the same design, sound better as long as they are not clipping. The number of devises in the output stage also seems to affect sound quality.

Welcome back, Jerry!

Dave

 

RE: here is something to think about, posted on November 19, 2015 at 09:45:58
Crazy Dave
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Are you saying that the radionuclides in modern steel cores is audible? Fascinating! What affect does it have on the sound?

I am also curious, since you have listened to so many transformers; do you thing that modern Tango and/or Tamura are a cut about, with their exotic cores?

Dave

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 19, 2015 at 09:50:21
Crazy Dave
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I have waited this long! How are their PP transformers? The first amp I plan to build is a single ended 6V6 amp (Low powered, simple and relatively safe). I will use it for my computer. After that I want to try PP.

Dave

 

RE: Is Vintage Iron Inherently Better Than Modern?, posted on November 19, 2015 at 10:50:19
krankkall
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I replaced the original PP output transformers on an old Magnavox #8802 6V6 PP console amp, with larger Edcor PP output transformers.
Certainly an improvement, especially in bass response.

Steve

 

Sounds like a winner! (nt), posted on November 19, 2015 at 13:11:08
Crazy Dave
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Disagree that modern transformers measure better, posted on November 19, 2015 at 16:21:15
garymuffley
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I doubt you will find modern transformers that measure as well as those found in The Heath W-6, Heath W-5, Citation II or McIntosh.

 

Transcendar transformers area also very nice, posted on November 20, 2015 at 08:04:07
ToddM
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Contributor
  Since:
June 13, 2005
Hand-wound to order, they have very nice fit and finish. They have a line of standard builds, but I recall that they would do complete custom winds. They take 2-3 weeks to get to your door. Great LF performance, too (hey, when it's *maybe* 3-4 wpc, you need every bit).

Along those lines, I also looked at the James transformers, and lots of people have reported good results, but I like dealing with small shops in the US.

 

RE: Transcendar transformers area also very nice, posted on November 23, 2015 at 10:09:59
Crazy Dave
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Prices are reasonable and they have vintage replacements.

Dave

 

RE: here is something to think about, posted on November 23, 2015 at 11:49:20
merdy
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sorry late reply was travelling and busy diying
Radionuclides as per old engineers and radiologist say that it affects equipment where there are audio/rf transmissions ,maybe not audible but affects performance tolerence
my favourite salvaging was old research labs and medical equipment companies ,some of the tubes and parts were top notch ,i have about 6 electronics for medicine 12ax7a that are the most amazing tube i have heard of course now they go for silly money
if you ever hear the tango amorphours cores on a well designed amp you are in for a treat,but they are luxury items at the price
keep having fun
Silence is golden duct tape is silver

 

RE: here is something to think about, posted on November 23, 2015 at 12:05:24
merdy
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hi i have never played with kt 120 or 150 i have done some experiments with the kt90 ,while amazing these newer tubes need extra juice,i would look for transformers that can supply at least 30 % more current than all the total biasing required
finding opt than can do juicy power now a days is v expensive, have you thought about restoring some vintage theater amps like altec 1569,1570,some dukanes,capehearts,rca etc ,even some hifi amps like heath w6,eico hf 60,scott lab series etc,
i have used and rebuild over 15 altec 1569 and done to spec and rebuilt ,they are mack truck reliable and visually,one of the few theater amps that could bitch slap a ls35a
have fun
Silence is golden duct tape is silver

 

RE: here is something to think about, posted on November 24, 2015 at 09:41:52
Crazy Dave
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So I gather as long as the designers are designing with current tolerances in mind, the should be able to get good results.

I am not really a connoisseur of 12AX7 tubes, but I would imaging that those medical 12AX7A's are very good. I do have some Telefunken 12AX7's from some Scott gear, but I haven't tried them in anything. If I don't like them, they would be easy to sell!

Dave

 

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