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B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice.

85.19.92.6
Posted on November 12, 2015 at 07:45:24
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi !
i have bought a pair of the speakers in the picture.
I like the highs a lot but the bass is slow. Rubbery.
I wonder if this depends on the plastic cone woofers (i thought they were treated paper ... damn ... ) and then i cannot do nothing, or instead it could be the amp being not adequate.
Actually i am using a cheap Cambridge Audio 340a, not the last word on control of the woofers.
Any opinion of these speakers ?
As an example years ago i had an old pair of B&W DM 570 ... they were much much better in the bass. Very better ..
Thanks a lot.


Kind regards,
bg

 

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RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 12, 2015 at 18:14:10
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 Polypropylene is a GOOD cone material. I think you put your finger on the correct spot, in guessing the amp is not up to this particular challenge.

Try to borrow an amp with superior damping factor and large reserves of current. Possibilities include Nelson Pass designs, Bryston, Classe, and AVA. I'm sure that other "inmates" can make additional reasonable suggestions.


Eli D.

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 12, 2015 at 20:36:48
bean
 Definitely more, quality power. The DM570 may have been easier to drive, but the Matrix is a much better speaker.

I had the Matrix 3 series 1, the tower with the 2nd woofer. I really liked them, always thought they were far, far underrated. Still miss them.

Get some good power and enjoy!

edit - can't remember the amp I used; I think it was a Luxman.

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 12, 2015 at 22:44:12
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable reply.
I feel much better now. I thought the "sluggish" bass were not curable.
You say " Polypropylene is a GOOD cone material ".
This issue of drivers quality fascinates me a lot indeed.
I have read many times that paper cones (i guess the good ones) like the one by JBL for instance can convey better the famous PRAT effect.
I tend to agree.
I have some speakers with "plastic" cone woofers and while i find them musical and clean they sound also a little polite. They fail to give emotions with rock and pop tracks.
I am not obsessed by rock and pop but i like it.
I bought these speakers because i read great things about their construction. And i have to say that the detail is very nice and they sound quite natural. Real.
However following your advice i will try for sure a better amp. That is absolutely sure. I am crossing fingers.
Thanks a lot again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 12, 2015 at 22:48:47
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
I will try for sure a better amp (i.e. with higher current delivery and better damping factor).
However i am thinking in any case to a plan B, using these speakers as good quality satellites from 150 Hz up and put two woofers below them, one for each channel, to fill the bass.
I like the naturalness of the sound and the rendition of details.
I feel also that they image quite well.
Only the bass is a little sluggish.
I think that the very good thing is the cabinet design and construction.
Maybe i have been influenced by the literature.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 13, 2015 at 09:06:22
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 A subwoofer is a good idea. I use one myself, but IMO, you will still need more power to get what these speakers are capable of.

Dave

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 13, 2015 at 12:54:25
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi thanks for the advice.
I still wonder what these speakers are really capable of.
The cabinet seems the strongest part, but i do not know anything about drivers and x-over.
I think they were low/mid level price-wise.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 13, 2015 at 14:56:35
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The BMW speakers that I sold in the early 80's had drivers that were made by B&W.

Dave

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 13, 2015 at 18:47:35
bean
 no question a sub is needed, even the 3 didn't go very low

but they should do a lot better than 150. with power they should just need reinforcement

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 13, 2015 at 23:31:30
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi again.
Just another word about B&W woofers.
Woofers are more challenging than tweeters in my opinion.
It is possible to find very good and cheap tweeters.
And in a two ways speaker most of the human voice is reproduced by the woofer not the tweeter.
Through the years at B&W they have used many materials for the woofer cones.
In my memory i liked very much the paper ones, even in cheap speakers like the DM110 and DM570 that i appreciated a lot.
The sound was, as someone says, crisper, more alive.
Instead plastic based cones tend to sound more polite, clean, natural but also less exciting.
Almost as some of the energy is absorbed by the cone.
For instance they can be very good with classical music.
Paper cones are better with rock and pop (actually PA speakers have still mostly paper cones).
I think metal cones could be similar to paper. Stiffer than plastic ones.

However ... i will definitely try first a better amp.
I really want to like these Matrix speakers.
Also IMHE better amps can give a boost in the overall performance.
Higher current and higher damping factor can be the keys to good sound.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 16, 2015 at 09:55:19
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 There are quite a few speakers with paper cones that I like, but I also love the sound of my Bextrene-coned Spendor BC-1 speakers. Execution is everything!

Dave

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 16, 2015 at 11:05:13
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi again.
I do not know for sure. As i said plastic cones often sound nice but they seem to take out energy from the music .. slowing down the bass.
I have always been impressed by paper cones like Tannoy, JBL, Scan Speak ... wrong buy i am afraid.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 16, 2015 at 12:50:32
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Not on my Spendors! They are the closest thing to an electrostatic that I have heard from a dynamic speaker.

Dave

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 17, 2015 at 05:27:09
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi !

may i ask you which kind of music do you listen to ?

I am not fanatic of rock/pop but i have noticed that this kind of music can easily show what i mean.
For instance i had a pair of Kef with plastic woofers that i liked a lot with jazz and classical, but with Guns & Roses they were sleepers ...
Another thing i have noticed is that PA speakers they have almost always paper based cones, maybe with some additional treatment to tame resonances, but the base material is paper.
I will try a better amp before disposing the speakers.
But i am pessimistic at this point.
Next try will be B&W speakers of the early '90s. With paper woofers.
Thanks again.

P.S. one thing is very sure ... your amp is so much better looking than mine. What a beast ! i like it very very much (even if i would prefer it cut in half ... two monos i mean. But it is very good looking).


Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 17, 2015 at 09:11:32
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I listen to 60's-80's rock, classical, neoclassical, folk, Jazz and Reggae. Some classical Chinese music is thrown in their from time to time and some African (King Sunny Ade, Wally Badarou).

I should mention that I use a subwoofer too. What amp is that? It looks a lot like my Threshold CAS-1.

Dave

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 17, 2015 at 10:06:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and i think i understand better now.
One sub or two can help a lot and actually this is the plan B, i.e. to use the B&W as satellites.

Yes i found a picture of your amp (i looked at your listed system).
I guess it is quite powerful and with a good grip on the woofers (i.e. high current and high damping factor).
I love old Threshold amps a lot.
I am about the try a better amp anyway.
Instead transparency, highs and soundstage are nice.
Thanks again.


Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 18, 2015 at 08:53:20
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The CAS-1 and the CAS-2 are sliding bias class A, cascade amps. They are unique in the Threshold line in that they are not Stasis amps. It sounds very good to my ears. I also like the sound of another cascade amp, the Yamaha M-4.

Dave

 

Rubbery British Bass, posted on November 18, 2015 at 09:18:33
Mike Porper
Audiophile

Posts: 1414
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 28, 2009
 That's exactly how it sounded and sounds. I auditioned tons of Brit speakers back in the 80s and 90s. They all had the peculiar bass sound you've described, and "rubbery" is exactly the word that came to mind.

I think it had to do with their designing for typical, tiny Brit homes, and the peculiar material with which the walls of those home and apartment units were constructed. I recall reading about that issue in some Brit audio magazine.

Even today, I still find that Brit speakers have weird bass. Less than before, but it's still there.

 

RE: B&W Matrix 1 series 1 - opinion and advice., posted on November 18, 2015 at 10:11:56
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
HI and thanks again.
I will test definitely different amps with higher current and good damping factor. A good amp is an investment. A well built amp can last 20 years.
I see that al least here in Norway is much easier to find good bargain on speakers than on amps.
Thanks again and congratulations for your really nice system.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Rubbery British Bass, posted on November 19, 2015 at 12:08:54
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and sorry for the late reply.
Thank you very much indeed for confirming my feeling
The acid test is rock/pop music ... i would say even disco music
Some woofers cannot transfer the sense of rythm properly
I read of a german specialist famous for his driver cones ... they are all paper.
However plastic woofers can sound nice with classical (like Kef for instance). Nice tone but slow sound. Instead JBLs sound much better with dance music ... they tempt me to dance.
Thanks again
Kind regards,
bg

 

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