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How to record 78's to CD

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Posted on August 31, 2015 at 18:03:57
PacNW Redhead
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 31, 2015



I am going to try to record a bunch of 78s (and some 45s) to CDs. Can anyone offer advice? I know nothing, but here is my equipment:
1. Calibre 215 Receiver (I need the manual; don't know what all the buttons do);
2. United Audio turntable with a 660 EL Stanton needle (NEEDLE:will it work on all records--78, 45, 33, or do I need something else? Where can I find another needle? ARM: there are two dials, each from 1 to 5 at the non-needle/hinge end. How do I adjust? MANUAL: I could use a manual for this and can't find one. Do you know where I can get one?)
3. Pair of JVC speakers to listen prior to recording (do I need to listen WHILE I'm recording a record for any reason?);
4. Sony Compact Disc Recorder RCD-W500C 5-CD Changer/Recorder (has 2 decks. Appears that I can connect the Calibre to the Sony to make CDs from the United Audio player. I DO have the manual on this one. Bought it new).

Is there hope? Can anyone guide me? Can I offer music CDs that I've recorded in exchange for your help? They're mostly Classical, some Opera (blech!), and mostly old old blues and folk and Dust Bowl Ballads. Cool stuff.



Previous post on another thread:
Hi, I am new to Asylum and to dealing with electronics. It will be obvious I am sure. Can anyone tell me how to get/where to get the manual for an old '60's-'70's stereo receiver, the Calibre 215. I know it's not a high-end unit, but I think it will do the job. I checked the 'manuals online' website and nothing there.
Thank you ... Redheadinator@Gmail.Com

 

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RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on August 31, 2015 at 18:44:51
Poinzy
 If all you are doing is making recordings, you shouldn't have any problem with that rig, provided everything is in working order. "Provided" is key.

The included stylus will NOT work on everything, however. It's probably a microgroove stylus, meaning it's meant for vinyl, not shellac. You'll destroy your shellac records with a microgroove stylus. You need a specialized stylus for shellac records.

Do research on this. Do NOT get started recording until you have the stylus issue resolved. Seriously.

Two particular concerns about your Stanton cartridge:

1) The age of the included (probably microgroove) stylus. If it's old, you'll want to replace it. You'll also have to shop for a new stylus for shellac records.

2) Whether there are appropriate, new, aftermarket styluses available for your out-of-production cartridge. I think, with the exception of a single stylus, Stanton is out of the cartridge/stylus business entirely. That means you'll have to check out LPGear or TurntableNeedles for aftermarket stylus replacements (usually by JICO, a well-regarded Japanese company).

If you can't find appropriate stylus replacements, you'll have to get a new cartridge. Chances are, you'll find aftermarket styluses for your cartridge, though.

Yes, monitor your recordings. Use headphones or your JVC speakers.

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 1, 2015 at 08:04:46
Poinzy
 This is the best place to start looking for equipment manuals:

http://www.vinylengine.com

You have to register on the website to be able to download material.

The turntable you have in your picture looks like either a Dual 1009 or a Dual 1019. A manual would definitely explain what those dials do. Vinyl Engine has lots of Dual manuals available for download.

Addendum: Possible good news: if your cartridge is actually a 680 EL, not a 660 EL, you can get microgroove and 78 rpm styluses for it from LP Gear. So you won't even have to change cartridges if you don't want to. Just styluses.

http://www.lpgear.com

 

The best advice I can offer,, posted on September 1, 2015 at 09:27:47
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 given your admitted lack of knowledge about audio, would be to find a service that makes digital transfers. No offense intended but this is not a simple project.

As Poinzy points out, different needles (stylus tips) are necessary for each type of record - stereo LP, older mono LP and 45s, and 78s. Then depending on how old the 78s might be even they may need various sized styli. Then comes the subject of speed for your 78s. Those produced after WW 2 may likely be 78 RPM, but earlier recordings and non-US records may have other speeds different enough to change pitch. Lastly you should consider the EQ (equalization) utilized to make the recordings. Beginning around 1955 many record companies adopted the new RIAA standard. But it was a full decade before most utilized that. And prior to 1955 there were multiple equalizations utilized by different record companies, particularly with 78s. Without going into detail here just understand this can affect both the lows (bass) and highs (treble) in the sound of the playback.

Now all of this addresses only the playback of your records. It does not touch on the needs to convert the analog signal to digital to burn CDs.

So, are you still interested in doing all this yourself -- after you've spent the time to become familiar with the equipment you already own?

Whichever, I wish you success.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

John R.T. Davies, posted on September 2, 2015 at 06:51:57
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 was renowned for his work in this area. Doing searches for him will reveal the many labels he worked for, and discussions around his work. I have several of his collections of work on the JSP label. They are among my most prized CDs.

A chap called Ted Kendall learned from John (since passed away). Contacting him may give you more leads on how to go about it.


Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 2, 2015 at 11:55:38
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 1) Use a conical stylus.
2) Record to a herd drive.
3) edit the recording (For noise and ticks and pops) using software (Goldwave/Izotope RX)
4) Add the track and header information.
Transfer to CD if you must. Or use the Hard Drive as a NAS device.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: John R.T. Davies, posted on September 2, 2015 at 12:54:28
elektron
Audiophile

Posts: 952
Location: midwest
Joined: February 18, 2004
 You are so right. I corresponded with J.R.T.D. years ago. It was amazing to me how he could achieve what he did with 78 rpm record restoration.
Remarkable. Very nice fellow. I think it involved a tube era Tandberg tape recorder and a lot of patience.

Thanks for the tip on the JSP label. Early recordings are of considerable interest. Unlocking whats in the groove is an inspiration and joy.
My best to you. Would be fun to correspond. Drop me a line via AA if you wish.

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 3, 2015 at 07:28:33
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 It can just be a conical stylus. This is usually 3.0 mil, but there are other sizes for special applications. A stereo conical stylus will damage the 78's. you should not use it. Also, if you are at all concerned with fidelity, then you will need special equalization curves, There are more than one. This can be done on the computer or with a phono preamp designed for the purpose. Both vintage an modern phono preamps are available.

Dave

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 5, 2015 at 13:26:32
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Do you really think one pass on a 78 at 2 grams with the wrong stylus will ruin a record? I knew I shouldn't but have done it many times to demo a 78 record on a 3 speed changer with a new ceramic cart/diamond stylus installed. That's not many times on one record but say ten 78's played once or twice with the wrong stylus. I don't have any perfect 78's but have several that are pretty good sounding and a few that have high s/n due to surface noise. Playing them a couple of times hasn't changed a thing.

If I was a 78 collector I would never play them on the wrong stylus. But this guy wants to record them to digital by playing them once. I don't see the issue. To me the most important thing is editing in the digital domain where perhaps noise can be reduced and fidelity improved via EQ etc.


Not saying you're wrong and I'm right but that the practical reality lies somewhere in the middle as I see it. I'm a Grado dealer and sell mono carts and 78 styli. Most of the customers I deal with w/old phono stuff for repair/rebuild etc. don't want to spend the money for good stuff no matter how many articles I link to the web that tells them otherwise.



E
T


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

I don't believe it is just a matter of not ruining the 78, posted on September 5, 2015 at 16:01:10
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 Choosing the proper stylus size/shape to match the groove width should help with sonic quality.

If the OP only wants some inkling of what is on the 78s you may well be right. But if they want some semblance of quality then matching stylus would be the first step - assuming it is actually a 78 RPM record and their table is accurate for that.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: I don't believe it is just a matter of not ruining the 78, posted on September 5, 2015 at 16:33:14
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Agreed on the right size stylus for the right size groove. I just don't know if it is worth all that.


E
T

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 8, 2015 at 09:06:00
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I would not do it, but then I wouldn't put any record on a 3 speed changer with a ceramic cartridge. I suspect that is what happened to the MoFi records I have that look perfect but sound like sh__. Obviously, I can't tell you that you did not hear what you heard. There is a lot variation in the quality of 78's when you start. I have a lot of 78's, but almost all of them are late era classical music (my fathers collection), and actually sound pretty good (YMMV). Yes they have limited frequency response, and I have yet to hear one that did not have surface noise. Still, there is music in the groves, that I would not want to risk it. I treat all my 78's as irreplaceable treasures, even if the word does not think so! It does not matter if I were digitizing or just playing them, I'd want the best sound possible (with reasonable expense). Given the low price of a 78 needle on a low priced cartridge, I can't see any reason not to get it. YMMV!

Dave

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 10, 2015 at 05:13:44
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 Won't ruin the record. WILL sound like hell compared to using a 78 stylus. I've been there, done that. Oh, and the better the cart/stylus, the less surface noise. Been there, too.

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 10, 2015 at 07:42:51
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Good point. Disregarding record wear, why go to the trouble digitizing crap sound when with so little more effort, you can have much better sound.

Dave

 

RE: How to record 78's to CD , posted on September 17, 2015 at 06:53:03
Poinzy
 Any time. Don't mention it.

 

There's NO SUCH THING as a "stereo" stylus, posted on September 18, 2015 at 20:43:09
Newey
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 26, 2012
 A stylus is a stylus, mono, stereo, or quad. The only differences are in stylus shape, size, and cantilever design.

It's the cartridge which contains the circuitry that'll extract and derive mono or stereo information.

You're confusing LP microgrove styli with large-groove 78 rpm styli. Note that microgroove styli may be, and original were only, available in mono cartridges.

I'm not sure how much damage - if any - a microgroove stylus might cause to a 78 rpm shellac. But, a 78 stylus would certainly shred a microgroove vinyl disk.
Severius! Supremus Invictus

 

RE: There's NO SUCH THING as a "stereo" stylus, posted on September 21, 2015 at 14:46:32
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I agree that a stylus is not mono or stereo. It was a poor choice of words, although I would not use a conical or an elliptical stylus on a 4 channel record (QS or SQ) because it would not properly track the high frequencies needed to get the full signal. I have hundreds of mono records and am will aware of mono microgroove records, and own quite a few. I own some of those original mono cartridges.

I would expect that too small a needle at low tracking fore would slam around the 78 grove, but I don't have proof. You are welcome to try on your 78's. Mine will only be played with the proper sized needle at the high tracking forced required to track properly (depends on the cartridge).

Dave

 

Too small a stylus is like driving with tires rubbing curbside, posted on September 24, 2015 at 07:50:09
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
 If you use too small a stylus on shellac 78s, even after one play, I guarantee you will rub off black crud from the chafe which will deposit on the stylus tip.

Even a 2 mil stylus, called the "universal size" but known as the compromise size, can easily damage shellac discs designed for 3 mil styli. Some cartridge and stylus manufacturers offered 2.7 mil, rather than 3 mil, as replacement styli so we could "avoid the worn, scratchy groove areas" affected by the too typical worn needles used in the "good old days."

If you research the stereo preamps of the early stereo era, 1958 to 1962, you will see that some classic stereo control units did not offer a summed L+R mono choice in playback. Instead, they offered L or R channel mono playback to effectively offer a way of reducing worn groove noise; using only one groove wall. This is a most unfortunate historical event, as classic preamps like the Mc C-20 and Pilot 210, as well as more than a few others, would require a modified/rewired or replaced switch to accommodate a summed mono signal. Many stereo preamps also avoided and still avoid offering "stereo reverse" as a "mode" option. Oh well....

 

As I suspected! (nt), posted on September 29, 2015 at 11:53:30
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001

 

Calibre 215, posted on October 8, 2015 at 13:06:34
Mike Porper
Audiophile

Posts: 1414
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 28, 2009
 Wow. Calibre. Pacific Stereo's 4th and final private label line. They produced that line starting in 1979. Sales staff were paid extra cash incentives, called "spiffs" to push private label gear, and you have to sell a certain percentage of private label gear to stay employed.

I'm surprised that the unit's lasted this long.

Pacific Stereo's private label line were [in ascending order of quality, roughly]:

Transaudio
Quadraflex
Calibre
Concept

Except for Calibre, all of the line had both receivers and speakers. The Concept speakers were made by ESS and had Heil tweeters.

 

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