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Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps...

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Posted on August 13, 2015 at 17:18:58
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
How about an "updated" list from the crowd ?

I'll start with:

Paragon E for phono duty

Eico HF-85 for Line Level duties

Lafayette KT-600 as the "classic early stereo" vintage choice

Owl 1 solid state mono phono stage for 78s


When responding, consider that any very vintage device may have been upgraded sensibly or certainly deserves some resto...

 

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RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on August 14, 2015 at 06:05:17
lokie
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Posts: 1986
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
Are you trying to drive the prices up even further?

For your "sleeper" killer still bargain phono stages, please send me a PM so as not to let the cat out of the bag.

I'll only tell my brother who will be sworn to secrecy w the double secret spy master handshake.

 

RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on August 14, 2015 at 08:26:35
Crazy Dave
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Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Every 70's and 80's Yamaha preamp that I have heard has a good phono section but the Phono stage in my Yamaha C-2x preamp towers above them all. It is one of the best I have heard and is very flexible. Plus you get excellent tone controls that can really help with those less than perfect records.

Dave

 

RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on August 14, 2015 at 09:13:07
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
Paragon E?
I've heard of the Paragon 12(a) (I've got a 12a)

Tell me more about the E








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Shure M65 is the best I have., posted on August 17, 2015 at 10:12:59
ToddM
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Location: Atlanta, USA
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June 13, 2005
I also like the preamp(s) in the Apt Holman for the flexibility, and the tubed sections in the AA151 and SP2A can be great with higher-output carts (Grados sound better on them than anything but the 5721 mentioned below). I'm looking forward to resurrecting a Sherwood S5000 (not the "II"), which enjoys a fantastic reputation. The phono sections in the Philips Lab Series receivers and the 572[1] preamp are also outstanding and flexible, as well. The HK 430 is very nice, but I haven't spent as much time with it.

On the downside, I've done 2 Marantz 1060 and one 1090 and the phono sections, while fine, aren't in the same class as the above, IMO. I mention that because they always get kudos, but I haven't had that experience. Along the same lines, the Advent 300 just didn't really live up to my expectations, and has been bettered by the Apt and Philips.

All the above is based on a complete rebuild of the stock circuit, using schematic values, although I will up the wattage rating on resistors for a shot at lower noise (where they'll fit).

 

RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on August 20, 2015 at 05:53:58



Just to shake things up a bit, I would like to offer up a budget solid state performer..........

The APT HOLMAN;
Good linestage, Terrific phono stage!
$300 to $400.


 

RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on August 20, 2015 at 14:05:45
Crazy Dave
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Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
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I always liked it when I worked in a shop that sold them. It would be interesting to hear one now. There are those that fell it is still one of the best.

Dave

 

Paragon preamps...., posted on August 20, 2015 at 17:18:24
Interstage Tranny
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Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
Allegedly 400 model 12/12As were sold; the 12s were point to point wired while the 12As had a board. The elusive 10 model was similar to the 12 and only a handful were known to exist. Apparently only 250 E preamps exist. The E or "System E Audio Command Module" preamp is a sleek looking, solid wood sides equipped, no frills stereo preamp. With no tone controls, minimum switching for function, mono/stereo, tape monitor, Low filter and only Balance and Volume controls, plus the external, very beefy cap storage bank power supply, these were always sought after preamps.

The phono stage should be identical to the 10/12/12A with a cascode input 12AX7, cap coupled to 1/2 12AX7 then direct coupled to a 12AX7 cathode follower sending active feedback EQ back to the first cascode stack AX7 cathode. A simple line stage used 1/2 12AX7 cap coupled to the output tube plate follower with a feedback loop from line output tube plate to first line stage tube cathode; thus six 12AX7 tubes in total. Amperex or Telefunken tubes were recommended by the good folks at Paragon and ADI...

I have seen a few versions of the E. They were popular on the coasts during the late '70s/early '80s. Wooden side panels are either solid oak or walnut. Some versions have no shielded wire to or from the function switch, (which can cause crosstalk between sources if source levels can not be minimized at the sources). Some have one phono while some can switch three phono setups. I have a three phono, oak side version, which I traded an E.H. Scott 800 with motorized tuner and shiny chrome amp to get; in 1980 ! I guess the hard-core collector who made the trade with me undervalued the Paragon pre because it had "added" phone plugs and some scratches. Later, I noticed my version even had 1% plate load resistors, so I added some more matched, low tolerance parts and upgraded some original Electrocube caps. It still sings nicely today, having gone thru quite a few tube rolling sessions. As a phono stage or a full function preamp, it is hard to beat.

In the mid '80s, I used RCA silver PP2A3 theater amps which needed 8V of drive for their input driver tube. While the Paragon E could make nice music together, the E phono stage into my Lafayette KT-600 line stage was a better match, IMHO. My KT-600 or Eico HF-85 line stages are my preference as both the Laf and Eico have incredible drive abilities in my experiences. Someday, I might build "my special E version" which would be including a stereo reverse switch and even some more mode switching on the plate follower line stage, along with the fine E phono stage. I applaud Bruce Moore and Mark Deneen for their incredible designs during the short Paragon era, as well as Bruce's involvement with the early Audible Illusions and Precision Fidelity hey days...

 

Shure M65 is a great platform...& the others..., posted on August 20, 2015 at 17:32:13
Interstage Tranny
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Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
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I too enjoy the M65. With some upgrades, the simple phono stage is still a contender. It provided a huge enjoyment factor here.

Your other mentioned tube preamps use passive EQ, so I wonder if you notice a "different" sound with them. While the early Sherwood 5000 might be worthwhile, like the Eico HF-81, these classics prove new is not better...

Concerning the Marantz ss integrateds, did you use the newer Elna Silmic or Silmic II electros ? Their sonics are revered in online opinions. I like the Marantz 1060 for what it is, as I can also enjoy the Advent 300, until I turn on the tube gear. The original Apt pre deserves the resurgence it is getting. If I could get a 3D image out of that phono stage, I too would rave. Perhaps, with new Siltec electros and film coupling caps, the Advent 300 and Apt preamps could be contenders...Have you heard the early Phase Linear 2000 or 4000 phono stages ? Like the Apt, they are impressive phono preamps...At this time, the tubes still win IMHO...Enjoy !

 

RE: Paragon preamps...., posted on August 20, 2015 at 19:54:22
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
Thank you for the education about Bruce Moore's creations.

I have learned more from your post than I've learned since I acquired it about 1980. Now, if I could find some literature, including a manual, and a good schematic. I have one, but it is bad to say the least. :)





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I missed those particular Elnas., posted on August 21, 2015 at 10:00:40
ToddM
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June 13, 2005
I used a mix of Nichicon Muses and Elna Silmic electrolytics in the signal paths of the Philips and Apt, mostly just Nichicon in the Marantzes (the latest one was like 5-6 years ago). The tube stuff, mostly Spragues or Cornell-Dubilier bc of the high voltage ratings and/or point-to-point wiring. I like to get quality construction, but I've never let myself spend the dosh on Duelunds or anything remotely in that league. I'll check out those Siltecs you mention.

I've never had the Apt in a room where great imaging was really going to happen, to be honest - I usually have it set up in the family room, where it does music and HT, with McIntosh ML-10C speakers (with EQ!) on either side of a bookcase and toys in front of those, so probably not going to have the chance to check that out until we move ;)

 

When others mention how good the Shure is, I always smile..., posted on August 22, 2015 at 14:32:24
Cleantimestream
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Posts: 7542
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
The circuit topology is quite close to the Dynaco PAS-2 with a few changes in resistor values and different RIAA network feedback circuit values.

The other difference is the power supply voltage, about 100 V B+ specified for the Shure versus about 210 V for the Dynaco.

The higher voltage on the Dynaco should {theoretically} put the 12AX7's in a more linear state, with a higher overload margin compared to the Shure, albeit the Shure probably having a quieter noise floor.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Paragon preamps...., posted on August 22, 2015 at 15:44:25
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
OK...I might be able to help you with some lit. I can't find any genuine printed Paragon brochure or manual lit. But, I have found a large format E scheme that is actually composed of four pages taped together. The phono stage should be the same. I also do have a similar 12A schematic ! Anyway, please email me thru one of my ads posted on the AA Trader "Tubes" section.

It may take a while to "reduce" the large format at a nearby copy center, but, you have been waiting since 1980 anyway; right ? Best Regards...

 

I always smile..., posted on August 22, 2015 at 18:14:54
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
Yes, the lower voltage B+ can also be found on the cute chrome phono preamps I enjoy; as well as many classic vintage phono stages. For example, the Eico HF-85 and Pilot 210 also use "lower voltage" for their phono tubes. The EQ parts and values are critical. With increased power supply capacitance, these "lower voltage" phono stages can sound very dynamic.

Lately, I have been arranging their power supplies for separate cap banks for each channel; simulating dual mono construction. Nevertheless, despite the very low current drain of the 12AX7s, actually using "dual mono" separate power trannies for each channel will sound the best. Furthermore, you would be able to hear the benefits of a dual mono phono preamp even if you use a stereo amp.

 

RE: I always smile..., posted on August 23, 2015 at 06:55:42
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7542
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
My penchant for building mono- bloc amps reflects your view, being more important in a preamp... makes even more sense. I dropped voltage in my own rebuilt Dynaco {via UTC potted Transformer that BARELY clears the cover being put back on the PAS 2}... Curcio mod for flat frequency response, over built power supply, 6X5 rectifier, etc.

I can't seem to leave anything alone... THAT circuit uses positive feedback and despite the negative view of positive feedback I have noticed that when it is employed ie. HK a500, Dynaco Pas2, the sound has an undefined {by me} organic realness. There are many pre-amps with more resolving power but the fact of that basic circuit being designed circa 56' by Ed Laurent, is impressive.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

The Dyna phono preamp circuit is still very worthy with minor mods..., posted on August 23, 2015 at 14:26:29
Interstage Tranny
Audiophile

Posts: 3063
Location: Eastern
Joined: October 4, 2006
Those Dyna PAM-1 preamps can still be purchased one at a time for less than $75. each; sometimes with two Tellees hidden inside. The Dyna PAM actually gave the Marantz 1 mono preamp a run for the money. Simpler circuitry, less tubes, no cathode followers, but less versatile than the Marantz 1, Dyna sure knew how to satisfy on a budget.

The PAM had three phono EQ positions, which the PAS should have kept IMHO, grid stopper resistors at the phono input tube's grid, decent EQ parts and values for the time, plus that cathode to cathode "positive feedback" resistor that many, many classic units and even more modern preamps have kept. Many CJ preamps after the PV-2AR, until they later decided to use passive EQ, also used that K-K feedback R. That is saying a lot !

The Shure M65 as well as the Shure SE-1, the transcription studio grade phono preamp also uses this technique. The SE-1 actually has Dynaco PAS type PC boards inside, but the EQ can be tweaked with air gap tuning caps, along with a simple 12AY7 line out stage using of all things; a UTC A series Plate to Line Output tranny. With this hobby, popularity is not important. Most important, to us, is the playback enjoyment factor. It is really all about playing the records and enjoying the listening...

 

RE: Favorite Vintage Phono Preamps..., posted on September 10, 2015 at 16:22:49
goldenthal
Audiophile

Posts: 999
Location: Ontario
Joined: March 28, 2003
Well aside from my own, which is a custom one-off, the best I've heard in my own system was an Audio Research SP6B. But I have not closely auditioned all that many (maybe a dozen over the decades?).


Jeremy

 

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