Vintage Asylum

Classic gear from yesteryear; vintage audio standing the test of time.

Return to Vintage Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Jolida 102B vs Vintage Yamaha

128.157.160.12
Posted on December 11, 2014 at 10:29:49
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 Greetings All,

I am considering replacing my vintage yamaha C-4/M-4 with a Jolida 102B. My yamahas are fully functional but they are vintage and fussy. Sometimes you have to flip a switch a couple times for it to fully engage etc... They sound wonderful but I am ready for something more modern. Also they power a pair of great KLH 5s which I read are well suited for tubes. I'm not necessarily looking for an upgrade, I've just been playing with vintage gear for about 10 years now and I'm ready for something modern. But I certainly wouldn't want a downgrade.

I'm considering the Jolida because it is affordable and well regarded. It seems low risk for investigating tubes. I've read review after review saying it punches above it's weight, but the yamaha's are really great. I'm not sure if the Jolida punches that high.

So, please weigh in if you have any thoughts on the matter.

I'm going to post this in the amp section too so sorry for the double post.

Thanks!

Nate

You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Jolida 102B vs Vintage Yamaha, posted on December 11, 2014 at 12:43:55
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I would think about trying this one first.

Same general price range.

I understand your point about vintage gear getting "fussy". After a while it does get old trying to coax your stereo to play. Kind of why I dumped a large part of my collection. Actually all but one! That was professionally rebuilt.

Also consider having the Yammies gone over by a pro. If it sounds good and you like it, you're not going to improve it by buying new. You are just going to start the "looking" process all over again. And it's going to get VERYYYY expensive too. Just a personal experience.

I know the new stuff is alluring. Just don't rush if you go that route.

charles

 

RE: Jolida 102B vs Vintage Yamaha, posted on December 11, 2014 at 13:41:47
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Keep in mind this is a piece that was $550 when new. I think you'd like the sound A LOT better than the Yahmaha, I know I would. I do find that most often the used prices for this unit are too high. For instance even though the Jolida 102 advertised here is upgraded, I'd rather have the Onix also listed here for $100 more. If you use a phono you could still use the C-4 and then take the tape out to your new amp.


E
T


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: My 22222 cents, posted on December 11, 2014 at 18:12:27
Russ57
Audiophile

Posts: 3754
Location: South Florida
Joined: November 16, 2001
 IMHO tube gear is all about having something you can "fuss with". From simple upkeep like setting the bias, to rolling different tubes, to trying different capacitors and resistors. It is part of the appeal of owning tube gear. Keep that in mind heading into this choice.

The M4 is a rather slick design with extremely low distortion numbers. The Jolida is more like the average joe-blow 50's tube amp. In some ways a little worse because it is biased more towards the class B side to get more watts and the transformers probably aren't as good as some of the vintage names like dynaco/eico/scott/etc.

I think everyone should try tubes. Problem is giving it a fair chance.

In a broad sense you have the great amps from the early 1900's like western electric and rca. These amps used lots of very costly parts and tubes and only put out a few watts. With the right speakers these are marvels. Darn shame both the amps and speakers are beyond most of our means (even if building your own). Not only in dollars but also in space and WAF.

Then we have the mainstay amps, the dyancos/scotts/fishers/eicos/etc from the 50's that all are guilty of running push-pull class AB pentode/tetrode/ultralinear outputs in order to deliver more watts. Some, like the marantz's did a truly great job of it. Sadly it is as far as many get when it comes to tubes. Worse yet they try to get by with 60's speakers intended for solid state amps.

They we have a very few rare designs that (tried?) to improve things like the citation and the unity coupled mac's. Those amps can't really be compared with others. They are engineering marvels.

So what is a guy to do (assuming money matters)? I'd say start off with an amp that has parts that can be reused. Plan on building your own amps later on (very easy as long as looks aren't important). Understand that physically large speakers (read horns) are required and count on having to build them too. Best to use pro-audio parts here (you want something that plays as loud as you need with 1 watt but can handle 50-100+ watts). Consider that you might need to use an external crossover and bi-amp.

IMHO, if you aren't looking for a hobby and to tinker....and if you don't have the space and someone who will allow you a place in the house dedicated to this hobby....then stop before you go down this road as addiction awaits you my friend:)

Oh, and be sure to include at least another $1,000 (plus) in the budget for a decent turntable, cartridge, phono stage....plus the room for hundreds of records. Be a darn shame to ruin that horn/triode experience with a digital only source!

 

Totally agree...., posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:43:34
sanman
Audiophile

Posts: 1780
Location: Redwood Coast
Joined: November 13, 2004
 Just send that old Yammy to me, I'll even pay postage!!
But seriously, a good tech can probably sort it out..I know Yamahas of that era had problems with cold solder joints, FYI.
"When the demon is at your door, in the mornin' it won't be there no more"
Steely Dan

 

IMO ..., posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:47:44
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The Yamaha C4/M4 are in a almost unique position among vintage transistor gear, in that you only need to update the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply. There are none in the signal path. Then you can do Bold Eagle's resistor trick. You'll get very similar to tube sound without the hassle.

Dave

 

what about the relays?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 11:22:01
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 It was explained to me that the relays are not repairable. Once they go they go and you have to cannibalize parts from other amps. That is one of my fears/motivation.
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

RUSSSS - where've you been?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 11:51:33
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Hey Russ, haven't heard from you in a LONG time. How ya been?

Hope every thing is OK.

I don't know if you heard but I'm using a funny Samra restored/rebuilt Sherwood S-5000 now. Marvelous and couldn't be happier. Makes me forget how I moved out of tubes about 10 years ago.

email me
charles

 

RE: what about the relays?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 11:53:37
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 If you have a good tech rebuilding or going over your gear. 9 times out of 10 the relays can be salvaged or even replaced with something similar.

Did you check out the Dynaco kits?
charles

 

RE: what about the relays?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 12:34:47
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 They are working fine in my C4 and M4. These came out when Yamaha was building stuff right.

Dave

 

RE: Totally agree...., posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:00:59
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 I had a tech at a reputable store (Bjorns in San Antonio) clean the connections and resolder. It helped quite a bit but I worry the lingering fussiness could indicate problems with the relays. Of course I had it serviced over a year ago and it has not gotten any worse so I suspect it is just a fussy old piece of gear. It works fine. Just every now and again a channel will drop out when I turn it on or switch inputs and I have to loving cajole it back to full operation etc... Its not a big deal.

Nate


You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

RE: My 22222 cents, posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:03:52
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 Thanks for the info. I am susceptible in a bad way to tweaking. I've built a few phono amps and speakers etc... I obsessed over my Technics 1200 for years to a fault. I think I want simple now just because I tend to not listen to music and rather listen to changes. I enjoy the hobby more when I keep my tweaker side under control!

Nate


You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

RE: what about the relays?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:05:11
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 The tech told me the c4 relays are sealed and not accessable. If they fail you just have to get a new one or find a way to break into the sealed relay boxes.

Nate
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

RE: IMO ..., posted on December 12, 2014 at 15:16:34
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 Could you share some details of Bold Eagle's resistor trick?

.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: IMO ..., posted on December 12, 2014 at 16:03:41
joelongwood
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: Long Island, NY
Joined: April 9, 2003
 This was posted on the Classic Speakers (Mostly AR & KLH) forum regarding Bold eagle's resistor tweak:
Hello everyone,

Since I've received so much help on this forum, I'd thought I'd share a very pleasant experience with you.

A couple of weeks ago, in the Vintage section of the Audio Asylum, there was a discussion about using Solid State (SS) amps that have a high damping factor (>100) with vintage speakers. One of the points made was that vintage speakers designed in the 50's thru the late '60's were voiced with tube amplification in mind.

It was mentioned that when AR was doing demos in the AR room during the 60's, they were using MAC's and Dynas for amplification.

One of the posters (Bold Eagle), suggested that a resistor (.5 to 1.5 ohm) wired in series with the speaker would present a speaker load to the amp more in keeping with a tube amp.

Since I have a pair of AR3's powered by a NAD C350 (60 watts rms/channel into 8 or 4 ohms) that has a high damping factor (~150), I asked Bold Eagle in a private email about applying the resisitor tweak in my system.

He responded as follows:

"Be happy to help you with this. I, too, have the NAD C350. It's a very well designed amp. But it has a very high Damping Factor (low source impedance). Tube amps have a low Damping Factor (high source impedance). So adding series resistance to the C350 gives it the impedance characteristic of a tube amp."

I purchased two .5 ohm power resistors, and wired them in series on one leg of each speaker cable. Total cost, $1.05. (I also purchased a pair of 1 ohm and 1.5 ohm resistors, but haven't tried them yet to see how increasing the resistance impacts the sound).

The results:

First, the biggest impact was that the whole mid-range and upper mid-range seemed to become much smoother. Next the treble seemed to have slightly better clarity. Finally, the bass seemed slightly more defined - a little less muddy if you will. Huge improvement? No, but noticable, and quite pleasing.

Am I hearing something better, or something thats just different? I don't know for sure yet. I spent some time switching the resistors in and out of the cables, and I like what I hear better with the resistors in the circuit than out of the circuit, so they're staying in.

I don't know if this tweak will work with more 'modern' AR speakers, but I would surmise this might work with the AR1 and AR2 series speakers as well.

If anyone else tries this, or has tried this, let me know what you think.

Regards,
Larry

 

Sorry I overlooked your question, posted on December 13, 2014 at 06:12:51
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 about the dynaco kits.

I did check it out. I am comfortable with DIY, I've built speakers and 3 phono amps. I'm not a pro but know my way around a soldering iron and a circuit schematic. I've got a science degree and a career in technology development. One of these kits would be the biggest job I've done though. I know so little about tubes that I don't even know where to begin. I'm reluctant because I know so little about tubes that if I screwed it up I really wouldn't know where to begin trouble shooting. It is rare that you just put something together and it simply works, at least rare for me!

What do you think about this kit vs the jolida, night and day difference? Which model in particular do you recommend?

Nate
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

Thanks! nt., posted on December 13, 2014 at 06:57:47
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 nt.

.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: Sorry I overlooked your question, posted on December 13, 2014 at 10:03:39
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 The kits are REALLY easy. Very simple step by step instructions. And there is a ton of on line help.

Let me put it this way. The Dynaco kit was one of the biggest selling kits ever. So if about 200,000 people got them together without much of a fuss, then I think you can too.

Go for it!

 

what about a preamp, posted on December 13, 2014 at 10:22:35
texanater
Audiophile

Posts: 1513
Location: Houston, TX
Joined: December 16, 2002
 I guess ultimately I should get the preamp the PAS3 but now we are starting to talk some money. I may need to put that off a few paychecks. I have a promithius passive preamp that uses a TVC (toroidal volume control). I know nothing about how well Tubes play with non-tubes especially a passive preamp. I've read tubes don't play well with non-tubes.

Thanks!

Nate
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields

 

RE: My 22222 cents, posted on December 13, 2014 at 10:22:46
dls123
Dealer

Posts: 1214
Location: Beautiful B.C.
Joined: April 15, 2003
 Hi Russ,
Thanks for the very thoughtful note. It was a good read and you are providing some sage advice to him. I might disagree with a few things you said, but am in general agreement. Still, there are little integrated amp gems from the 50's and 60's that will positively embarrass anything Jolida ever made. I have worked a few Jolidas and I was not impressed with the build. Of course that was a few years back and perhaps they have improved the quality. There are certainly some very good Chinese manufactured tube pieces out there. I guess where I differ from you is that I think a good Sherwood or Scott or a few others when properly (and lovingly) restored can be a great amp. No, it isn't a Citation II or an 8b, but it will play wonderful music through a decent pair of speakers. I too love horns, but I have a pair of modern Joseph Audio RM25XL speakers in the living room that are about as good a speaker as I have heard, especially when cost of a used pair is considered. They will play nicely with a 20 watt tube amp. So there are modern speakers available in the $2000 or less range that are very tube friendly and don't have to be large horns that take up the whole living room (and yes, I love horns). Finally, I agree that this is a hobby/tinkering path that you set out on with tubes. If you are into it you will never go back. If you are not, you will end up with SS gear again. If you are the true tinkerer that many of us are you will end up building and/or restoring your own gear. I have a custom tube preamp that is killer. Haven't built an amp from scratch yet, but am considering it for the basement. The Citation II resides in the living room...I doubt I could build a better amp, just a different one.

At any rate, Jolida is an ok place to start, but you cannot stay there for long..... They are not that reliable, nor that good for a tube amp. Still if he picks up a used one for a low price it will be an intro...and probably more reliable than a vintage piece that has not been restored.

Again, thanks for the read, I enjoyed it.
cheers,
Don

 

RE: what about a preamp, posted on December 13, 2014 at 12:18:23
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 They work great passive. And they also have a PAS you can buy on tub4hifi's site.

 

That is it! (nt), posted on December 15, 2014 at 08:35:56
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001

 

Page processed in 0.026 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]