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Which Sherwood S-5000?

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Posted on July 26, 2014 at 14:02:40
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 I'm considering the purchase of a S-5000 and wondering which version to get. i.e.-I,II,III,IV. Not in a big hurry so can shop for the "right" one.

Any opinions?

.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

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RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 26, 2014 at 14:29:34
geezerrocket






Per Mikey Samra instructions; I got the S-5000 with 7189 output tubes and 5 preamp tubes that are "slanted" on the front part of the chassis.

I took my time as well to get exactly what I wanted - a near pristine piece.
When I received mine I wasn't expecting much as it was bone stock.
It completely annihilated my stem to stern rebuilt Fisher X-202-B.

My S-5000 is at casa Samra getting a soup to nuts rebuild - can't wait to get her back.

 

Thanks!, posted on July 26, 2014 at 15:37:15
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 That is the first version with out roman numerals, correct?
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

Second that opinion!!!!, posted on July 26, 2014 at 16:13:44
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I have the same model type. And it was rebuilt by Mike. All I can say is this IS the best stereo I've ever had, or will ever have.

It's almost funny when I look at it. This humble little old stereo that sounds better than anything I've ever had or even HEARD!

The five tube preamp section is the deal breaker. And 7189 output tubes are perhaps the best "audio" tube made.

What more can I say - but go for it and have Mike restore it.

charles

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 26, 2014 at 16:53:41
The_Gief
Audiophile

Posts: 38
Location: North East
Joined: June 5, 2001







The first model (yes, without the roman numeral) is a gem. My "right" one was stored in the original box since the 80's and had 5 smooth Telefunkens, and Sherwood labeled Amperex (Made in Holland) driver, output & rectifier tubes.

 

Partially dissenting opinion!, posted on July 26, 2014 at 18:39:20
GRH
Audiophile

Posts: 444
Location: CT
Joined: March 22, 2004
 First the disclaimer. I have never heard a 7189 S-5000, hence the "partial". Mine is an S-5000 II with 7868 outputs. I have rebuilt and beefed up the power supply and replaced the coupling capacitors.It is also a superb sounding amplifier and to "my ears" combines the best of tube with the cleanliness of solid state. I would think that your speakers would play a huge role in which amp would be best for your situation. The extra power of the II might be beneficial, might not. I don't think you can go wrong in either case. Just my thoughts ...
Gary

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 26, 2014 at 18:46:31
Brian Levy
Audiophile

Posts: 2438
Location: Toronto
Joined: June 5, 2000
 I won't argue with Mike's pick as it would be mine also. I had the S5000II and it too kicks almost anything in town so it boils down to more the power than anything else. BTW, there is the S5000 and S5000II. The problem with the S5000II is there are more than a few variants from simple production run changes/experiments to output tubes. Sherwood back then made what they considered a great circuit design and then just kept it, updating it. The S3000 had 4 versions but each had either a major change such as stereo adaptability or built in or changes.like from one the tuning round eye to the bar to the meter so there are the 5 differentiated versions, the first with no numeral and the rest with Roman numerals.

Then to confuse things they went ss and the replacement for the S3000 only has 1 designation, S3300 though there is the all silicon, fet and fet/microcircuit versions. You can only tell which is which from the dial plate or getting under the hood. The S9500 ss amp, though has 1 unfettered version and 3 lettered versions with, strangely enough the first lettered version being the S9500a. Trying to follow early Sherwood units is like trying to catch the fog with a mosquito net.

Even their model coding can drive one nutty. The S5000 is the more upscale tube amp than the higher numbered S5500 and the S9000 was their highest powered 1st gen ss but the lowest powered is the S9500 and the middle amp is the S9600. I thing the engineers just hated annual model changes that might indicate the prior generation was not as good a design or really hated the marketing department.

Today my Sherwoods knocked out all the remaining competitors trialed to date in my ongoing system mating project. Tomorrow I will be putting them against the remainder of those who have made previous cuts but based on the prior listening experiences there is little hope any of the remaining units will survive to the next round leaving the final contenders to be competing Sherwoods. A few months ago, I'd have bet against either making it this far, never mind both. Both that I expected to be in the final match hit the skids today.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Thanks!, posted on July 26, 2014 at 19:24:16
geezerrocket
 Yup.


 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 07:56:07
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010









I picked up the slanted tube version, S-5000 (no roman numeral), on Ebay last year after reading Mike's recomendation. Then had Don Sachs rebuild it including the phono section.After 40 years in this hobby it is ABSOLUTELY the best amp I have ever owned.
PaulB

 

Oh yeah, posted on July 27, 2014 at 10:11:22
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Mine does have the slant 7189 outputs, telefunk preamp tubes and amperex redctifier tube.

If you get it, spend the money on the telefunks and rectifier tubes - it does matter!@

charles

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 10:28:36
Brian Levy
Audiophile

Posts: 2438
Location: Toronto
Joined: June 5, 2000
 I have seen photos of Don's work and comments from his patrons and he seems to be the man for tube Sherwood, at least in Canada and possibly elsewhere. His work looks to be totally top notch. Had I known about him when I had my tube pair, I might still have them. Stock they are great but components are getting well past mbf life by several decades.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: Partially dissenting opinion!, posted on July 27, 2014 at 10:35:06
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 "I would think that your speakers would play a huge role in which amp would be best for your situation."

ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, 100% CORRECT!

The amp/speaker combination is an "organic whole". Examples of both component types, otherwise known to be excellent, that are totally wretched in combination, have been documented more than once.

System synergy IS "the name of the game".

BTW, Mike Samra's primary set up consists of hideously expensive Martin/Logan speakers and Harman/Kardon Citation II amps.


Eli D.

 

O/P Tubes for Sherwood S-5000, posted on July 27, 2014 at 11:05:20
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 The S-5000 runs the 7189s VERY hard. Don't, for 1 second, give thought to trying any EL84/6BQ5 variant! They will quickly fail.

NOS 7189s are scarce and quite expensive. Fortunately, the current production Russian 6П14П-EB (6p14p-ev), AKA EL84M, is a genuine 7189 equivalent available at reasonable cost. The Russian tube is tougher than the proverbial brick outhouse and its sonics are quite respectable. "Roll" the small signal tubes to obtain maximal results.



Eli D.

 

RE: Partially dissenting opinion!, posted on July 27, 2014 at 11:54:11
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 Eli, I agree as a rule of thumb. But I think there are other factors at work as well. Type of music and how loud you listen can come into play. Here's my experience. Don re-worked my S5000. Among other things he set things up so my output tubes are running quite soft, putting out about 12 watts a channel (if Don sees this maybe he'll chime in and give a few more details). Get this. I'm using this amp to drive a pair of Magnepan MMG's. Granted they won't play super loud but up to about 85db they sound glorious, in a fairly large room of about 16'x20'. Another factor is that my listening chair is only about 8' away from the speakers. Sonicly the synergy is great. Electricly it shouldn't work all that well, but it does. Of course, YMMV.
PaulB

 

RE: O/P Tubes for Sherwood S-5000, posted on July 27, 2014 at 12:27:11
The_Gief
Audiophile

Posts: 38
Location: North East
Joined: June 5, 2001
 Thanks, Eli!

I'm not using my phono at the moment due to trouble shooting the B+ supply voltage for that section but I like how this amp responds to rolling tubes at the remaining 3 spots. I have a smooth 'tele, a ribbed 'tele & and tall mullard playing together nicely.

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 27, 2014 at 23:47:19
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005


This is close behind. Notice how the preamp tubes are covered by a shield.


THis is the best one IMHO Notice how the preamp tubes are 45 deg angle.
I like the S-5000 with the four controls on the left side,one being phono volume and they use 7189s..Both of the 7189 units are ultra linear if you look at the schematics. The 7868 and the almost non-existent 7591 unit is wired in pentode and both use 12AX7 drivers...This is fine with a pentode setup.
What is nice about the S5000 with 7189s,both of the 7189 units have a five tube preamp and use the 7199 driver to run the 7189s which is the basic mullard circuit..Don't confuse yourself with model numbers because they are deceiving.The amp S-5000 where the preamp tubes are not covered by a shield and is slightly larger in size,that is the best one as far as the 7189s go...The other unit is a bit smaller.
Here are a photos of unrestored ones that would be esy to recognize...One is the S5000(2) but look at the physical description and not model as it gets confusing.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Partially dissenting opinion!, posted on July 28, 2014 at 21:33:11
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 If you don't push the volume level, it should sound very good. While inefficient, "Maggies" present a tube amp friendly "flat" impedance curve.

Connect a H/K Cit. 2 refurbished ala Jim McShane to the MMGs and you'll get both finesse and volume. :>D A properly reworked "Deuce" produces dynamic power peaks in excess of 120 WPC. Continuous power is "only" 60+ WPC.


Eli D.

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 07:13:08
dls123
Dealer

Posts: 1214
Location: Beautiful B.C.
Joined: April 15, 2003
 OK, time for me to chime in. Yes, Mikey has rebuilt a ton of S5000 amps, and I have done I think 4 of them. I have done a few of the S8000 receivers and one or two others with the 7868 output tubes. All have their sonic virtues. I have done probably well over 300 rebuilds of various amps in the past few years so I have heard quite a variety of tube gear and have some basis for comparison :). We all have our tastes. There are a number of pieces with great reputations that I have heard that I thought were vastly over rated and quite frankly, built like crap. The Sherwoods were built to a much higher standard than most of the others. I prefer the little 7189/EL84 version for that little bit of sweetness. However, the 7868/7591 version is a very good amp and I totally agree that it will depend on what speakers you are using, what room, and your musical taste. They are both great amps. Mikey and I are buddies, we are not in an competition, our recipes for rebuilding them are pretty much the same. If you get one I would be happy to help you sort it out, and so would Mikey (I think), but I cannot speak for him and how long his queue is. Mine tends to run under 30 days most of the time.

I also agree with Eli D. in that these are great amps, they are one of the best little integrated amps I have ever heard, but they are not quite in the same league as my Citation I/II combo, especially on phono. That said, they are more than good enough for most folks and cost considerably less than separates. They will give you 75+% of the performance of a killer pair of separates and cost much less and take up far less space. If you can live with 13-15 watts/ch or 30 or so that you get out of the 7868/7591 version then you will be very happy. If you really push the 7189 version you can get a bit more than 15 watts/ch. Depends on how hard you want to run the output tubes. If you need more power then you are looking at separates. Let's put it this way. If I had to set up a great system on a budget I would probably start with the S5000 at the core. If cost were not an issue then I would start with a Citation II......

cheers,
don

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 09:31:57
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Agreed, however the cost difference and difficulty finding a Citation, vs a Sherwood is a factor.

I have my Mikey special and love it. Take the time and find one of the 7189's.

 

Speakers, posted on July 29, 2014 at 09:34:55
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 I've been using a pair of DIY Zaph Audio SR-71's with GREAT success. It even has a third speaker output that I use for my subwoofer.
The SR71's go cleanly down to around 40-45Hz and the sub just "fills in" the rest.

charles

 

Excellent post. Thanks for your input. nt., posted on July 29, 2014 at 09:38:17
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 nt
.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 11:52:02
rockdoc
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Location: Harwich MA
Joined: February 17, 2010
 Thanks Don, Michael, and the all rest here. Great insights into the Sherwoods. I love the 7189 and would love to have a 7189 based Sherwood receiver, but they are apparently extremely rare. Guess once I finally find my S 5000 it's going to need a Sherwood tuner to match. For now I'm scratching my head looking at the crowded underside as well as all those can caps in my S 8000 receiver.

Steve

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 19:55:12
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 "Guess once I finally find my S 5000 it's going to need a Sherwood tuner to match."

That might be ideal, but a Dyna FM3 in good repair is no slouch. A link to an article about the "care and feeding" of FM3s is provided below.

Of course, you could spend big bucks on a McIntosh MR67 or MR71. The "Mac" tubed tuners are among the very best, ever.


Eli D.

 

There's a coupla Sherwood tuners not far from me ..., posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:11:11
PeterI
Audiophile

Posts: 1432
Location: Colorado
Joined: October 17, 2006
 In Denver, though. S-2200 and S-3000.

Pete

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 07:14:46
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 Check this out. It'll be interesting to see what this goes for.
PaulB

 

That one has been up for a while ..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 10:19:50
ToddM
Audiophile

Posts: 1612
Location: Atlanta, USA
Joined: May 15, 2001
Contributor
  Since: June 13, 2005
 ... weeks, I think. Now that I have one, I'm curious to see how the market goes. They seem to be around $400 for an example in very good cosmetic and operating condition, more for pristine examples like the one below (the faceplate seems to be especially vulnerable to losing paint around the Source and Volume selectors, and heat damage underneath). I saw one ~15 years ago in a local shop for around $125 and fell in love, I've wanted one since then but had other projects come up in the meantime - I'm kinda stingy with what I'll spend on this kind of thing, but then again, I enjoy doing the refurb work.

I got one a few weeks ago, along with a tuner, for around $200, but the amp needs a LOT of work (extensive rewiring due to heat/chemicals, mainly, along with the default recapping), so maybe that will turn out to be about the same total cost for someone who isn't interested in the "project" side of the hobby.

 

RE: That one has been up for a while ..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 10:43:51
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 I've been through more than my fair share of audio gear. One thing for sure is my Sherwood S5000 is staying put.
PaulB

 

$699.00, posted on July 30, 2014 at 11:09:24
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 I just bought it!
Thanks to all who responded.

.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 11:13:00
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 I'm glad we have this discussion on Sherwoods..If you remember 4 or 5 years back,people people would gawked and say,why would want a Sherwood of all amps..Then,with the rebuilds you and I do on these and even before in a good running unit,people are amazed at how they sound..Then again,all Sherwood ever did was build integrated amps and receivers outside of the S-360.
Don,I haven't found many too separate amp and preamp combos within the power rating of the Sherwood run with the Sherwood once rebuilt..I'm speaking mostly of the Dynaco ST-70 and PAS3 as well a few others but definitely the Sherwood will outrun the Fisher 500c or Scott 299 sonically..I think the type of metal in the chassis,the ground scheme,and the one extra tube in the preamp line stage gives us a bit more flexibility to make these things sing.I also love the 7199 for driving 7189s...You couldn't ask for a better tube in an integrated amp of that size.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: $699.00, posted on July 30, 2014 at 13:23:35
colebearanimals
Audiophile

Posts: 270
Joined: February 13, 2010
 Congrats! Worth every penny IMO even if you pay someone to do a complete rebuild.
PaulB

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 13:50:58
The_Gief
Audiophile

Posts: 38
Location: North East
Joined: June 5, 2001
 all,

do we have an idea of how many S-5000's were approximately sold? do the serial numbers give any clue?

btw, one sold on 7-25-14 for $100 (BIN)! who's the lucky chap?

 

Check out his other items..., posted on July 30, 2014 at 14:00:19
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 This guy is setting on some seriously nice gear.
.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: Which Sherwood S-5000?, posted on July 30, 2014 at 20:59:44
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Tons and tons..They sold a lot of receivers as well..The The S-8000 receiver was priced 70 to 90 dollars less than the Fisher 500c and those as well as the integrated not only sounded better but they were so beautiful to look at and women just went nuts when they saw how beautiful it looked..I knew this because one of my old audio mentors that is now in his 80s used to sell them along with AR speakers and Fisher amps and Garrard and thorens tables..
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: $699.00, posted on August 3, 2014 at 06:33:45
geezerrocket
 Congratulations!

You got your for $100 cheaper than I did.

Now; get it off to Mike or Don to turn her into a swan.



 

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