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Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin

173.70.213.126
Posted on March 25, 2012 at 15:36:41
mitchs


 
I have bought a pair of Altec Flamenco's which generally sound terrific with a bunch of tube amps and preamps that I have paired it with. I have noticed, however, that compared to a pair of Tannoy Kensington's I had that horns (trumpets, etc) sound somewhat thin. Can anyone help me understand why that might be. I will be upgrading the crossover shortly as it is my understanding that Great Plains Audio is working on creating a new crossover. Cables are Cardas SE9.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks.

 

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RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on March 25, 2012 at 19:32:47
Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008
 It is not hard to improve Altec speakers that use the 811 horn.

First remove the bug screen on the gasket that separates the horn from the driver. Just lift it off with an exacto blade. Second cover the horn with Dynamat. Third replace the crossover with the same circuit but using good quality air core inductors and capacitors such as he Russian MBGO-2 military grade aluminum foil & waxed paper. Get the part number off of the crossover in the speaker and then search on the internet for the schematic using that part number.

These changes will transform these speakers and it should only cost a few hundred dollars for the best parts. I would leave the original crossovers in place and rewire the speakers with your favorite wire. Leave the new crossover box outside the speaker. I bi-wire the tweeter and woofer each with its own cable from amp through the crossover to driver.

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on March 25, 2012 at 20:53:27
Tom Brennan
Audiophile

Posts: 5854
Joined: January 2, 2000
 It could simply be the nature of the speaker doesn't please you on trumpets. I used various Altecs for a long time and found that most tweaks (those that actually did something, many don't) were more useful in extending the range of the speaker on either end than in changing it's midrange and basic nature.

IME&O cutting out the bug screens doesn't do a damned thing and I think people do it for the same reason a dog licks his balls: because they're able to.

The 811 horn is easily damped by putting non hardening modeling clay inside the upper and lower "lips" outside the flange. But while this reduces ringing of an unmounted horn struck with a hammer I'm skeptical it has meaningful effect on a horn solidly mounted to a baffle and excited only by the sound moving through it, not a hammer strike. But the damping can't hurt so why not?

IMO the best thing you can do is build a Model 19 type compensated crossover which incorporates EQ to extend the highs considerably. Some people think this lessens midrange "shout" and it certainly adds a little sparkle.

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on March 26, 2012 at 08:49:08
bean
 I think Tom nailed it - you just don't find the 811's presentation of timbre for upper brass appealing. I hear the same thing with them.

Updating the compression driver to a later manufacture version with a "tangerine" phase plug will probably help some - but might not, or not enough. Model 19 compensated crossover may help, it was a big step up for Altec. Damping the horn maybe makes a subtle difference. None of these will change the 811's character. Your ears are probably objecting to internal reflections inside the horn (others may disagree).

I could be happy with 811's - they get 99% of it right. I nearly bought Flamenco's, the guy just wanted too much for them. I ended up with round tractrix horns - they get the timbre right - for me. At the expense of other things (more narrow sweet spot).

It's all about compromises, and it all depends on what YOU are listening for.


btw, leave the bug screens in, here in farm country I watched an oriental labybug crawl up one of my horns, while playing at LOUD level.

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on March 26, 2012 at 18:11:09
Inmate51
 "It could simply be the nature of the speaker doesn't please you on trumpets."

Or, it could be that an old 15" 2-way honky-horn design doesn't reproduce sound as well as some people like to think it does.

Or, it could be that the recordings don't accurately reproduce the sound of a trumpet, whichever trumpet recording might be the subject - not that there's any variation - and some of them sound better on some speakers than others.

Or, the listener actually has a good understanding of the sound of a trumpet and of trumpet recordings, and these speakers really do suck.

Or, 15" woofers really aren't good for reproducing 1000 Hz.

Or, or, or, ...

Audio waveforms are audio waveforms, whether it's a trumpet, a sax, a violin, piano, etc.

A speaker either reproduces a waveform more-or-less accurately, or it doesn't.

Nostalgia, being the very strong influence that it is, it can be hard to accept the fact that, as good as some of these old designs were back in the day, many of them have glaring shortcomings when compared to today's standards of "high fidelity".


 

I subscribe to the dog ball theory....nt, posted on March 28, 2012 at 17:15:54
Conductor
Audiophile

Posts: 841
Joined: July 24, 2000
 nt



 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on April 1, 2012 at 19:07:09
DuaneBusa@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Coconut Grove, Fl
Joined: August 5, 2007
 I recently picked up a pair of Seeburg DS1s and they use the 811B horn. Over at audiokarma they also recommend rebuilding the crossover and adding an l-pad also.

Regards,

Duane in Coconut Grove(hot as hell down here-tomorrow maybe 90 degrees!)

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on April 4, 2012 at 16:22:49
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Undoubtedly the crossover caps need replacement after so many years. Since you are sending the crossover to be updated, just wait till you do so and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


Stu

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:30:25
junker
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: California
Joined: November 23, 2014



1) Rebuild the stock crossover with good parts. The 4uF cap and R on the horn are the most important there, and replace the inductor with an air-core on the LF side - I'm still waiting for my order.

2) Use brass mounting hardware on the horn

3) replace the internal wire in the horn (4")

4) Mount on 22-25" stands to bring the horn up to ear level

5) remove the plastic casters to directly couple to table in 4)

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:32:03
junker
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: California
Joined: November 23, 2014



Mounting in cabinet.

External is preferred and I will explore best way to route wires through rear panel.

 

RE: Altec Flamenco's - Trumpets sound thin, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:34:56
junker
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: California
Joined: November 23, 2014



Brass mounting hardware

 

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