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The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing

67.234.160.19
Posted on June 19, 2010 at 17:27:14
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 after I hooked them up and used some test tones from the Stereophile discs to check and see if any of the drivers were not working. I used Stereophile Discs 1 and 3 to play test tones, warble tones and decay tones and all three drivers in each speaker seem to be OK.

I was playing them with both levels set at the highest. Just set them at their lowest...heck I have no idea where I'd set them! They sure don't have the pure mids of the speakers I have had in that system. They are "interesting," however.

I don't know what I'll do with them, but it's nice knowing the guy who'd bought them at the PO as a young kid in the Army took good care of them all these years. The grills were ugly and stained, apparently the only thing wrong with them. I removed the cloth and bought some new cloth to staple onto the particle board frames.

I'll post some pics when I'm done with them.

I've had the Norman Grantz Jam Sessions playing all evening. Nice discs. I'll play some LPs tomorrow.
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

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RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 19, 2010 at 20:24:47
sober1
Audiophile

Posts: 1536
Location: Chicagoland
Joined: August 9, 2000
 Hey Mike - you might want to replace the caps in the xo with like-value but new. This should improve the mids & highs. also clean the pots if you haven't done so yet. I have a set of Dynaco a-40 XLs I reworked and tried them on quite a few tube amps and was not overly-impressed. Tried them with a tube pre and Onkyo M-282 sand amp and WOW! some serious-ass synergy!
have fun!

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and well-preserved piece, but to slide across the finish line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, and shouting GERONIMO!

 

Then I could say I actually did something instead of, posted on June 20, 2010 at 06:47:48
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 just listening FOR something.

I'm sure, after 40-50 years, the caps have to be dried out...even though the guy apparently took good care of the speakers. I'll do some research and find out the minimal amount of work I'd need to do to get at the xo. Since I never pulled the drivers, I may find I want to stuff new stuff into the internal cavity that may be filled with stuff, as the old stuff may be really icky stuff, and I wouldn't want that stuff in my stuffy house.
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

Restoring the AR 3a PDF, posted on June 20, 2010 at 07:22:15
JonM


 
I can't recommend this document highly enough. Brought to you by the fine AR fanatics at the Classic Speaker Pages:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/

 

You're a king in my book!, posted on June 20, 2010 at 09:04:48
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 Thank you, I hadn't run across that in the research I'd started doing. I'm sure if I decide (and of course the info here will help me decide) to do a full restoration or if I only do the most necessary things, this will be a godsend.

The "office" system is a constantly changing system concerning speakers and speaker wire. As for sources, the surprisingly good sounding AMC CD6b CD player; A beautiful Kenwood KD500 is in perfect working order, the Pioneer PA1000 arm has just been rewired with silver. Hung on the arm is my "Frankencartridge" which is a Win Labs SMC10 in a Monster Alpha body and a Soundsmith ruby cantilever and stylus. I use a Dynavector P75 Mk. II phono stage with the low output carts on the Cary SLP70 preamp and the newly changed from an Omega, Audio by Van Alstine Insight 240 plus.

I am very surprised it has evolved into as good sounding as my "big" system. I wanted "something" that I could listen to music and not really pay attention...too bad, it sounds too good not to pay attention!

The point is that the ARs, hopefully, will be another strength for that system. Thanks for the information!
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 20, 2010 at 09:48:56
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 They sure don't have the pure mids of the speakers I have had in that system. They are "interesting," however.

If you are comparing them to set of quad esls,or maggies,or a voice of theater system of the day,I would say you are right however,if you upgrade the AR3s with new high quality caps in the crossover,and replace the mid and treble pots,that midrange will be fabulous for a dynamic speaker.The dome mids in the AR3s are some of the best ever made for that type.Mike,if you tweak and play with those 3A's a bit,you will be amazed.The bass is the AR3s strong point.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Michael, all of you guys have me wanting to do, posted on June 20, 2010 at 10:38:47
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 whatever needs to be done. Even to the point of replacing some drivers (or God forbid all), although I'd rather not get into any big money spent on them (too many other audio toys I want).

I am putting them on some very solid stands I had built for my old Mirage 750's (1st born has those). I just did a quick search and found someone using the same height, so I had to go into the audio closet and bring out my big 10 inch...speaker stands.

Stand them up or on their side? Tweeter toward the top, I'd imagine if placed on the side?

I'll post a pic of them set up to play in just a few minutes (maybe PLAYING, if nothing gets hooked up incorrectly).


******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 20, 2010 at 11:07:30
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5910
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
 When you redo them, either run the tweeter pot wide open or bypass it entirely. Set the midrange pot at the factory setting (the arrowhead).

Bypassing the tweeter pot gives you about 1 db more energy than with the pot wide open.

DO replace the 50 year old caps and be sure the pots are 100%. The inductors are top quality air core - leave them alone. Be sure the woofer surrounds are in top shape.

My source authority for this is my uncle Chuck McShane. He worked with Edgar Villchur, Roy Allison, and the crew at AR in the 70s. He was responsible for the AR-3a among other projects.

 

Some pics..., posted on June 20, 2010 at 12:15:00
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 other than doing the rebuild, they are playing and 10 inches off the floor the mids are much cleaner anyway. Jennifer Warnes on the Kenwood sounds beautiful. I need to do some "dressing" but for right this moment, the wires can remain where they are.











******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 20, 2010 at 16:49:14
JonM


 
I don't think those are 3a's. They look more like an early AR 2 of some sort, judging from the thin bezel, the smaller woofer, the midrange driver (not a dome), and a tweeter that reminds me of the AR 3's tweeter (not the 3a's). Also, the picture of the back side - if you look carefully, it looks like the white label says AR 2 in the upper left (though it's hard to make out clearly).

The 2's were fine speakers, and you'd do the same things to restore these as you would a pair of 3a's. The crossovers will be different, though, so if you replace the capacitors, you'll need to get the right values for this speaker.

 

RE: Not to spoil your fun . . ., posted on June 20, 2010 at 17:43:08
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 but I agree with JonM, those don't look like AR3as. Between pictures and cabinet dimensions found at Classic Speaker Pages, you should easily identify which model you do have. As they said on Seinfeld, "not that there's anything wrong with that". So I would encourage you to replace the caps and restore or replace the pots.

An audio buddy restored a pair of AR3as and could not believe the musical qualities when he inserted them into his main system driven by a pair of Halo JC-1s. We agreed that most of us never realized the potential of these AR speakers (and likely KLH, Advent, etc.) when driven originally by 25 to 50 watt tube amps, compared to modern high current designs.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

Those are definitely NOT AR MIDS!, posted on June 20, 2010 at 18:21:35
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 That could be why we were all puzzled when you said the mids were so so because I don't any of us here would think think the AR3s would have so so mids for what they are. The AR Mids should look like a big eyeball.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

The 2's were fine speakers, and you'd do the same things to restore these as you would a pair of 3a's. The cro, posted on June 20, 2010 at 18:23:22
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Agreed
Especially if you put the Realisic electrostat 3 add on tweeters with them. WOW!!!!!
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

This used to be the reference system at consumers, posted on June 20, 2010 at 18:41:10
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005

reports until 1986. THey also had realistic electrostat 3 on top of the janszen.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Those definitely look like......, posted on June 20, 2010 at 19:35:32
dadbar
Audiophile

Posts: 1675
Location: Portland OR
Joined: June 29, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 25, 2006
 early generation AR 2Ax. Orange tweeter & tissue attenuated midrange are the giveaway. 10" Woofer should have the cloth surround.

Later AR2Ax had the black dome tweeter and the shared foam surround woofer with the AR5.

You will need a 4uf and 6uf to recap those....

 

Hey, that's my picture!, posted on June 20, 2010 at 19:56:36
Otis


 
I remember taking it at my old place some six or seven years ago. I had quite a collection vintage speakers then, of which a few are visible.

On the far outsides are HPM100s, with cherry JBL L36's on top. Center, behind the ARs are either ADS L810s or Infinity 3000s, can't remember which.

Back to the ARs, the 1W woofer sounded waaay good -- better than I had imagined for its' age. Very articulate. The tweeter on top was non-functional, so I never did get hear it. Kinda wish I'd kept it all. Repaired it would have made a great mono setup!

Thanks for saving the photo, it brings back some interesting memories!

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 20, 2010 at 20:25:12
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I converted my AR2a speakers to AR2ax speakers(AR made a $10 kit with new midrange and grill) and those mid-range drivers look just like the new conversion drivers(the fiberglass in front of the driver is a dead give away).

By the way it's hard to call them mid-ranges with a 2 Khz crossover. It's more like a tweeter with super tweeter.

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 20, 2010 at 20:27:24
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I kind of recall that the factory published crves of the woofer/mid/tweeter settings at the middle of the controls and the mid was then a couple of Dbs down from the woofer with the tweeter another couple of Dbs down. For flat you needed to put both controls at max.

 

Thanks for the clarification, folks., posted on June 21, 2010 at 08:31:14
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 The labels on the back are too faded to have seen...I even took a magnifying glass to both papers and there wasn't any model number shown.

The two controls (???) do work, any tricks to getting things right; where they should be set? I had them both all the way up when sitting on the floor, I've had them all the way down when put on the stands...then left the mid low and turned the tweeter up high.

I totally confused myself. It is comforting to know that the AVA Insight 240+ is a better match than I'd thought. I listened to a lot of music with them yesterday.


******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

Definitely 2ax., posted on June 21, 2010 at 08:43:41
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 I, of course, had heard of the 3s, but never the 2ax.

Assumptions will get you every time!

I'll still do some upgrading, however. I hear enough good things (especially Jennifer Warnes' voice!) to warrant further "explorations."
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

RE: Those are definitely NOT AR MIDS!, posted on June 21, 2010 at 09:58:10
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The 2ax uses a cone.

Dave

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 21, 2010 at 11:26:23
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 That is asking a lot of a 12" woofer!

Dave

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 21, 2010 at 12:06:40
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5910
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
 No - don't put both at max - the mids are too strong wide open.

I'm passing along what the DESIGNER of the speaker said to do. This is not just my opinion. Of course you can do or recommend whatever you wish - I just wanted to be clear I was just passing on information, not "creating" it.

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 21, 2010 at 12:41:49
JonM


 
I used to own a pair of 2ax's - they were fine speakers. The 2 series had a 10" woofer, but your point is still an interesting one (a high crossover between woofer and midrange). However, there were no obvious issues (to my ears, anyway) at the woofer/mid crossover on mine.

 

RE: Hey, that's my picture!, posted on June 21, 2010 at 13:55:42
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Notta Problem Otis. Good picture btw.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 21, 2010 at 13:57:06
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I must have been confused by the talk of the 3a because I knew the 2ax had a 10" woofer. I have 2 pair! I would expect any problems to be audible only off axis.

Dave

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 21, 2010 at 20:06:17
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 the designer was responding to 50s recordings that he thought needed toning down so he deliberately rolled off the response at the 'middle' setting. I'd at least try the speakers flat with new electronics and some of the better recordings today.

 

RE: Some pics..., posted on June 21, 2010 at 20:10:01
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4310
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 first it was 10". second recall in the 50s and 60s the transition from large woofer to tweeter was not so critically listened to. third the AR2ax was an AR2a with tweeter added. so the AR2a was full range with what is being called a mid-range driver and 'no' tweeter. The mid-range is actually a tweeter and the dome a super tweeter like the Spendor BC1 as an example.

 

RE: Those are definitely NOT AR MIDS!, posted on June 21, 2010 at 23:23:39
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Dave
thats true but the one he posted was a dome without the eyeball.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

You have either late AR2a or early AR2ax speakers, posted on June 22, 2010 at 20:04:14
Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000
 You do not have a pair of AR3a.

Explore classicspeakerpages.org for more info than you can handle regarding the classic AR speaker line.

You may want to look into changing the caps. The level pots are a weak point, with many dead spots due to corrosion. It is possible to clean the pots, but the problem will come back. A controversial mod is to jumper the level pot so that it remains in circuit but the output is essentially fixed at maximum.

AR recommended that the pots should be set at the "dots". The speakers were designed for far field listening so that direct and off axis sound would combine for basically flat reproduction at the listening seat.

These are very nice sounding speakers.

Best, Ross

--proud owner of AR3a pr, AR5 pr, 3 x AR2ax pr. My father has AR3a pair, AR2 pr, AR98 pr.

 

Definitely 2ax., posted on June 22, 2010 at 20:19:50
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 Bright light, plus a high intensity flashlight, plus a magnifying glass determined that the faded label had AR2ax letters...barely legible, but there, none the less.
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 25, 2010 at 14:35:53
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5910
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
 The AR-3a was not a 50s speaker - it was introduced in 1968. There was some truly FINE stereo vinyl available in those days, the design had nothing to do with 50s vinyl.

The design had to to with tradeoffs, as they always do. Chuck & Roy Allison traded dispersion and improved durability for power handling. The result was a slightly shelved down tweeter. The midrange had plenty of energy.

AR used to receive tweeters (not necessarily the AR-3a tweeter) back under waranty with the ferrofluid BOILED out of them. Often this was due to early solid state amps that clipped far too often which means the tweeter sees HUGE amounts of energy. Heat dissipation in the voice coil was a real concern.

FYI, the midrange is not "flat" wide open.

 

RE: The AR3a speakers I found last year are playing, posted on June 24, 2016 at 04:25:09
jj208t@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Location: Arizona
Joined: June 24, 2016
 Hello everyone,

I just joined today, so this message is very late. I have a pair of AR 3a's and I must agree with Jim McShane. I have the 3a midrange controls set to halfway. More than that is too much for me. When I got the 3a's from Vintage AR I was surprised at how powerful the dome midranges are. I have no experience with the original tweeters. My pair has the HiVi Q1R tweeters with the required inductors. Those too are set to halfway.

Thank you,
John
PHXJOHN

 

RE: Not to spoil your fun . . ., posted on June 24, 2016 at 05:02:54
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 I think that's right. KLH Sixes can sound amazingly good when paired with modern amps and decent cables.

 

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