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Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch

206.58.127.76

Posted on March 24, 1999 at 20:08:16
Ardy


 
While contemplating on my first bi-wire,I saw an old post by you.(out of context)

The situation is such that when the full range musical signal is applied
to the terminals of a full-range speaker system, the woofer only
gets sent low frequency signals, and the tweeter only gets sent high
frequency signals. Once the crossover networks have been electrically
separated, they still continue to function in the same manner, having a
low impedance in their passband of application. This means that if
separate speaker cables are hooked up for the woofer and it's portion of
the network, and the tweeter, and it's portion of the network, not
only have the speakers and the frequency's directed and divided for
them, but the two separate speaker cables will now also carry
different signals, the woofer cable mostly the lows, and the tweeter
cable mostly the highs.

My question is how the "two seperate speaker cables will now also carry different sigals"?
If the cables come out of the amp at the same place,how do they know which signals to carry? If the crossover was in front of the cables I would understand,but from the amp to the binding posts,how does the cable differentiat what signals are going through it?
Also if you Y the cables at the amp to bi-wire,don't they Y back to one at the crossover?
Trying to learn the mystics.Best Regards.
Ardy

 

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Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 25, 1999 at 10:18:50
Q


 
Imagine you and your neighbor are connected at the end of many miles of one power line. Now your neighbor turns on every appliance in his house. Your lights dim, right? Now imagine the power company ran separate wires from the plant to your house and the neighbor's house. Your neighbor turns on all the appliances...what happens? The lights to not correspondingly dim. Why? His line losses do not affect your voltages! One can argue that there are other frequency and EMF dependent factors involved, but this metaphore describes what I feel to be the most significant.

And, no the crossovers in a speaker set up to handle bi-wire are independent...thus the connection is made *outside* your speaker from binding post to binding post.

 

Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 25, 1999 at 21:39:27
Ardy


 
It makes sense about the crossover indepedence,but the power line anology doesn't.A power co.uses different power sources for different runs.(transformers ect.)Try a simple test.Take a D cell battery,and run two sets of cables from it.Two wires from each cable to the pos. and two to the neg.Hook up a flashlight bulb to one set and check the brightness.Then hook a bulb up to the second set.The first bulb will dim,even when not run in series,becauce it's all coming from the same power source.
I still don't see how cables running from the amp can select the frequencies that they carry.Must be a memory chip thing.
Ardy

 

Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 26, 1999 at 10:21:03
Ardy,

Q is more or less correct with his power line analogy, as the distances and impedances involved scale closer to the power amp/speaker cable situatio than your battery and light bulbs. Most D cells or whatever, have a distinct output impedance, so the source voltage will drop at the batteries termianls, the short run of wire has the battery drop swamping the wire drops.

When you talk about the audio signal, it is compsoed of two parts, voltage and current. Dynamic (and other types) operate on the current passed through the voice coils in order to produce sound. Without the current,. there is no sound. If you look at the voltage in each cable, there are slight differences between what the woofer cable carries, and what the tweeter cable carries, due to the impedances of the cables themselves. These voltage changes are down around -48 dB from nominal (for a 14 gauge wire, approx. 10 feet long at drive levels of approx. 10W into 8 ohms), and represent IM distortion. Voltage fluctuations in the HF's can easily be two or three times that level, or 6 to 10 dB higher levels of IM distortion.

The current flow is very definitive, and the product of the voltage and the current, which is power, varies from the woofer cable to the tweeter cable.

See my web site, the specific page at:
http://members.xoom.com/Jon_Risch/page9.htm

There are two diagrams on this page, one is the single cable current flow through the wires, andnthe other shows the current flow through the separate bi-wired cables.

Note the distinctly different current flows in the two wires. Much more current is flowing at LF in the woofer cable than in the tweeter cable. This is due to the crossover input impedances, and is the reason that bi-wiring does do something.

Aside from the voltage drops, there are the magnetic fields to consider. By separating the LF currents from the HF currents, any tendency for the LF magnetic field to modualte the HF magnetic fields is reduced. How could a magnetic field of one frequency modulate another's? The cable effect commonly known erroneously as magnetostriction, or the action and reaction of the cable wires to transient magnetic fields causing the wires themselves to move, and hence intermodulate the signal, is responsible. High end cable manufacturers refer tot he resoancne, or lack of it, for there various cable designs,a nd this is where it comes into play.

Separate the LF and HF into flowing in two different cables, and the amount of this magnetically induced sign-song is also reduced. WHile this effect can still occur within each cable, it has been reduced by dividing the current load between them. Each bi-wire cable will now "sing" to it's own song that much less.

I would suggest you read the entire section on bi-wiring at my web site, and then if you have any questions, post them.

Jon Risch

 

Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 26, 1999 at 10:29:46
If you take the crossover in to account it would work this way. The crossover isolates the different the paths from each other. The oppisite path is in most cases a high impeadence path to the signal isolating it to the correct path. In general in other electonics a 10 to 1 ratio is enough to consider it neglible. So each path is an independent tranmission line. You are correct that the source still has to capable sinking both loads.

 

Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 26, 1999 at 13:56:48
Q


 
Nope, nothing to do with memory chips...Jon's technical description, although thorough, may not help the average Ardy much. You must remember that a wire is not that "line" drawn on a schematic....it is in fact a resistive, capacitive, and inductive device. Resistance, IMHO, being the most significant factor for this discussion. Add some low value resistors to your battery analogy, or some LONG thin wire, and see what happens when you run the bulbs in parallel (using a low impedance source this time, thank you, one that will not drop in voltage when the bulb load is placed.)

I will tell you that if you quarter the length of your current wire, you will probably notice a difference, even not bi-wired. This is the simplest/cheapest tweak you can do

 

Re: Bi Wiring?/co/Jon Risch, posted on March 27, 1999 at 11:36:05
Ardy


 
Thank you for your excellent answers!!

 

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