A new capacitor shootout

74.232.8.230

Posted on April 22, 2008 at 20:18:15

bevo
Audiophile

Posts: 453
Joined: December 27, 2004

I know what you are thinking - same thing I thought as well. But this one appears to be very methodical in isolating only the caps in the listening AND burning them in before testing them. Check it out. Perhaps the most interesing thing I got out of this was that PIOs really did poorly in XO applications. Since I am working on a couple different XOs right now, I may start looking for the Duelunds.

http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm

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RE: A new capacitor shootout

Toto

07:52:22 05/16/08

SEC

wheezer

13:56:22 05/03/08

4

RE: SEC

Toto

07:27:05 05/18/08

3

...

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RE: A new capacitor shootout

Toto

07:52:22 05/16/08

SEC

wheezer

13:56:22 05/03/08

4

RE: SEC

Toto

07:27:05 05/18/08

3

RE: SEC

wheezer

14:47:52 05/18/08

RE: SEC

Toto

06:30:33 05/20/08

RE: SEC

wheezer

10:35:28 05/20/08

RE: A new capacitor shootout

Old nuff 2 no better

21:02:38 04/24/08

RE: i'd rate this report a c+

reb

14:49:18 04/23/08

8

Just curious...

bevo

16:38:36 04/23/08

7

The "A" Comparison

Jon L

19:50:05 04/23/08

6

RE: solen sm/mundorf zn- your impressions)?

reb

04:09:54 04/24/08

Mundor Zn impressions were added

Jon L

14:38:14 04/24/08

RE: I find that caps like Mundorf ZN and even

reb

07:41:45 04/25/08

RE: The "A" Comparison

ACE_Vagi

01:49:35 04/24/08

Where did you order the Jupiters from?

Jon L

14:34:32 04/24/08

RE: Where did you order the Jupiters from?

ACE_Vagi

04:27:31 04/25/08

Thanks

Cpk

20:38:56 04/22/08

Thanks, posted on April 22, 2008 at 20:38:56
Cpk Audiophile Posts: 1518 Location: PA Joined: May 13, 2005	seems well done

RE: i'd rate this report a c+, posted on April 23, 2008 at 14:49:18

reb
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: NY
Joined: January 28, 2002

for incomplete

and some blunders

Just curious..., posted on April 23, 2008 at 16:38:36
bevo Audiophile Posts: 453 Joined: December 27, 2004	Can you direct me to one that you would rate an "A"? Thanks.

The "A" Comparison, posted on April 23, 2008 at 19:50:05

Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6062
Joined: April 6, 2000

is of course the one you do yourself with your own system, given your tastes and prejudices. Seems like a cop-out, I know, but it is *completely* true. I for one am doing it myself and chronicling my findings (see link).

This way, at least you know the results will be valid for your own use :)

Orgy of Capacitors

RE: The "A" Comparison, posted on April 24, 2008 at 01:49:35

ACE_Vagi
Audiophile

Posts: 64
Location: London
Joined: August 1, 2007

Your post on Head-fi seems a good review of a good few popular caps. I was a bit dismayed having read the other two reviews on their impression of the Jupiters, which I currently have on order to use as bypasses (for Ansar Supersounds) in my maggie speaker X-over upgrade.

What I have heard other sources other than these two reviews were similar to your impressions of the Jupiter sound - lush but still detailed. I also think that they are better suited to X-over applications rather than in amps - esp. phono stages with high gain or where any sonic attributes may be amplified by later stages and interactions with other parts.

Hence the reason I'm using them in the X-over just to 'flesh out' the top end a bit in the X-over. BTW the only reason I went for ansars is I need a 75uF for the bass panel and a 30uF for the tweeter - and that could be seriously pricey in most other polypropylenes!! FYI - I'm using North Creek inductors (12awg) for bass and Alpha core 12awg foils for the tweeter.

Anyway, thanks for the review link, I'll be posting my results on the X-over once it is complete (ie. once my inductors turn up from NC). My next upgrade will probably be to swap out the Jupiters for Mundorf silver/oils, & duelunds at the top end :D ....when I get the cash that is.

RE: solen sm/mundorf zn- your impressions)?, posted on April 24, 2008 at 04:09:54
reb Audiophile Posts: 1867 Location: NY Joined: January 28, 2002	you were going to post your results. anything to report yet?

Where did you order the Jupiters from?, posted on April 24, 2008 at 14:34:32
Jon L Audiophile Posts: 6062 Joined: April 6, 2000	I want to order some more, but I was waiting for the "latest revision" with supposedly better heat tolerance. And I wouldn't worry about your Jupiters. It's one of my "secret" caps I want to kind of keep under cover so the prices don't hike. Other than the heat issue, it's a great cap..

Mundor Zn impressions were added, posted on April 24, 2008 at 14:38:14

Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6062
Joined: April 6, 2000

It's the last entry on my thread. I added that a few weeks ago with *some* reservations about the cap, but you know what, I still haven't taken them out!

Every time it occurs to me I need to try the other caps laying on my floor (Sonicap Platinum, another pair of Mundorf Gold/Silver, etc), the music sounds so darn compelling I haven't been able to bring myself to "change anything," if you know what I mean :)

RE: A new capacitor shootout, posted on April 24, 2008 at 21:02:38

Old nuff 2 no better
Audiophile

Posts: 516
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: September 3, 2007

Why don't these tests ever include well known and commonly available parts that any knowledgeable designer would consider first, before looking at the high priced specialty parts? Example- Illinois Capacitor has a full line of very hi-spec polypropylene caps, including some high voltage types (PPA series). Good or bad? I dunno, but it seems foolish not to test them. Ditto for about five other mainstream brands. I will give them credit for including Electrocube and ASC, though they both offer many more types of parts than were mentioned.

RE: Where did you order the Jupiters from?, posted on April 25, 2008 at 04:27:31

ACE_Vagi
Audiophile

Posts: 64
Location: London
Joined: August 1, 2007

I ordered them from Sonic Craft in the US & got them shipped over here to the UK.

BTW - Seems my comments regarding my inductors not having arrived from North Creek were misguided - it was parcelforce here in the UK that failed to both deliver the goods and inform me that they were available for collection.....just as well I managed to sort it out before they got sent back to the US :P

Anyway, I'm looking forward to putting it all together this weekend.

RE: I find that caps like Mundorf ZN and even, posted on April 25, 2008 at 07:41:45

reb
Audiophile

Posts: 1867
Location: NY
Joined: January 28, 2002

lower level caps like PPMFX make for a great base cap to which you then bypass. Its easy to imprint the harmonic overtones of styrene/teflon/oil etc. into the signal. On the other hand, if you use a base cap that is very rich and full of harmonic bloom. Its much harder to hear what a bypass cap is doing. I like the combination of ZN or SM bypassed with styrene+tinfoil. IME styrene+tinfoil has a 3 dimensional layered sound and tonal sweetness to the highs that is not often found in other types of caps.

SEC, posted on May 3, 2008 at 13:56:22
wheezer Audiophile Posts: 4309 Joined: January 24, 2001	The SEC/FDYNE MPP are metalized Polyprop and I believe they are alum. foil not tin. Same for their PST, styrene and alum. foil. Their PPT are polyprop and tin foil....of the finest I've heard for a plastic cap. PPT's bested the REL RTX by a long shot in both PS and coupling apps. Unfortunately, SEC are no longer available as Electrocube has bought them out.

RE: A new capacitor shootout, posted on May 16, 2008 at 07:52:22

Toto
Audiophile

Posts: 20
Location: New York
Joined: December 5, 2007

Greetings,

I was one of the members of the listening panel involved in this shoot-out and just want to reinforce a few points that may have been overlooked by those who skimmed the introduction and went right to the results.

First, it should have been clear from the beginning that all tests were done with a particular set of designs that were being developed as part of a specialized product line, with the stated goal of optimizing those designs. In an alternative set of circuits, the results might have been quite different and, in fact, a few examples were even mentioned. In large measure, the point of publishing this survey this was to suggest a method of testing on your own that was more consistent with the "scientific method." Of course, unlike in a lab, all "measurements" were made by ear and therefore subjective within the scope of these tests. Overall, however, the panelists were almost always unanimous in their assessment of the subject under scrutiny.

Also, because principal designer Arthur Loesch felt that capacitor bypasses tended to obscure detail and smear the image, this entire area of discussion was excluded. The panel shared this view and this was one reason why the MIT MultiCaps fared so poorly, here.

In addition, while these were not "blind" tests in the strictest sense (where the set-up was hidden behind a screen), JL played the role of techie, switching the subjects in and out, and the panel was generally unaware of which cap they were listening to at any given time. They were also unaware of the price point until the final pecking order was announced.

Finally, we knew that other candidates were out there, but they were either unavailable in the specified values, beyond the price point at which we set a ceiling, or were inadvertently overlooked. To address this, we plan to have another round in the Summer-Fall of 2008. We'll be pitting the caps on Tiers A and B against a new group of challengers, including the 630V Duelund, the VTV Silver, the new Audio Note Copper and Silver, the Sprague Orange drop, the original TRT WonderCap and a couple of others. Was a favorite of yours overlooked? Please let us know! There's an eMail link at the top and bottom of the shoot-out page and we'll try to include it in the updated sessions.

TIA,
Toto

RE: SEC, posted on May 18, 2008 at 07:27:05
Toto Audiophile Posts: 20 Location: New York Joined: December 5, 2007	Michael Tong, our contact at SEC, told us that they only used tin foil in our capacitor orders.

RE: SEC, posted on May 18, 2008 at 14:47:52
wheezer Audiophile Posts: 4309 Joined: January 24, 2001	John Strickland owned F-dyne/sec. Michael worked for John. John owned and sold SEC to Electrocube. Michael now works for Electrocube. Their PPT were tin foil. The standard MPP and PST were alum. foil. You could specify tin foil.....that's what I was told when I was purchasing caps from them.

RE: SEC, posted on May 20, 2008 at 06:30:33
Toto Audiophile Posts: 20 Location: New York Joined: December 5, 2007	The SEC / F-Dynes in the cap shoot-out were made-to-order with tin foil. Generally speaking, we didn't care for most caps made with aluminum foil (any brand). But, of course, your experience may vary.

RE: SEC, posted on May 20, 2008 at 10:35:28
wheezer Audiophile Posts: 4309 Joined: January 24, 2001	Neither did I. Their standard PST were not very good. The MPP were good. The PPT were exceptional. Now, considering their price, it was a no brainer. Approx. 5bucks a piece for the PPT. 0.47,400V. But that's history.

Tweakers' Asylum

A new capacitor shootout

74.232.8.230