Alright, I'm sick of this stuff, get it straight on the 6P3S-E and read this post!

70.113.114.93

Posted on February 4, 2010 at 22:40:21

twystd
Audiophile

Posts: 2723
Location: Austin,Texas
Joined: December 9, 2000

First point, lets call it by a consistent western name, which is the 6P3S-E, not the 6N3CE. One reason, all the ebay sellers use that name, as Victor Khomenko pointed out, it is the transliteration of the Cyrillic, and after all, we are using what passes for English. PLEASE don't don't bastardize with a combination of the two, things are confusing enough. We don't seem to have this problem with other Russian tubes like the 6N1P, 6N6P, or the 6N23P.

Second, if you don't bias these tubes at 45ma or better they ARE going to sound thin. If you just drop these things into an amp and not bias them correctly, they won't sound their best. If you bias them right, and they sound thin, that's one thing, but if you just drop them into your Whiz-Bang 2000 commercial amp, and call it good, it ain't.

Third, although these things do look exactly, I know because I've compared them close up, like Sovtek 5881s, looks can be deceiving. I've removed these dry thin sounding pieces of crap 5881s out of my friends guitar amps, and replaced them with the mil spec 6P3S-Es. Smiles all around, even without break in, they sounded so much richer, had more sustain, and better attack. To make a long story short, they may look the same, but they SURE don't sound the same.

If you've already taken into account what I've just said, and they still sound thin, then they just didn't work out, or the synergy is bad with your system. If you haven't taken into account what I've said, then you haven't really heard a 6P3S-E.

So to sum up, lets call them what they are, know what the hell you're doing and bias them correctly, and finally don't confuse them with Sovtek 5881s. I can't believe I've gone through the trouble I have to let people in on one of the best deals in audio. Hell, I don't even like pentodes, and don't use them in my audio equipment. I'm a made member of the triode mafia!;-) Consider this to be my last post about these tubes.

twystd

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RE: Alright, I'm sick of this stuff, get it straight on the 6P3S-E and read this post!

Detune

20:12:24 02/23/17

It is too bad...

Valva Actual

14:55:56 02/07/10

Not EL34 Replacements

Triode_Kingdom

05:42:50 02/09/10

...

Show full thread outline!

RE: Alright, I'm sick of this stuff, get it straight on the 6P3S-E and read this post!

Detune

20:12:24 02/23/17

It is too bad...

Valva Actual

14:55:56 02/07/10

Not EL34 Replacements

Triode_Kingdom

05:42:50 02/09/10

Just my way of getting everyones attention.

twystd

10:55:45 02/08/10

Another thing to note, they do require a long-ish break- in period, IME. (n/t)

Cory M.

16:18:18 02/08/10

RE: It is too bad...

drlowmu

18:00:21 02/07/10

Agreed Twystd. These people that want to say that these are the same 5881 sovtek

Michael Samra

04:15:16 02/06/10

Am I disagreeing?

Frihed89

00:43:58 02/05/10

In a Push Pull amp

drlowmu

09:47:26 02/05/10

Why? They work great as is.

Frihed89

12:17:27 02/05/10

WHACK !!!

drlowmu

12:55:45 02/05/10

Think positive Nt

Frihed89

15:15:09 02/05/10

heh-heh-heh...

PakProtector

04:05:08 02/06/10

So which sounds better - 6P3S-E or 6N3CE ?

Triode_Kingdom

22:59:46 02/04/10

RE: So which sounds better - 6P3S-E or 6N3CE ?

Michael Samra

03:44:44 02/06/10

ARRHHGG!;-) (nt)

twystd

00:16:54 02/05/10

RE: ARRHHGG!;-) (nt)

Mendel

05:48:03 02/05/10

Yeah there's more to it than 45ma.

twystd

08:37:27 02/05/10

that 5881 guitar amp

FenderLover

11:51:20 02/05/10

RE: that 5881 guitar amp

twystd

15:23:51 02/05/10

RE: that 5881 guitar amp

FenderLover

15:51:16 02/05/10

So which sounds better - 6P3S-E or 6N3CE ?, posted on February 4, 2010 at 22:59:46
Triode_Kingdom Audiophile Posts: 10047 Location: Central Texas Joined: September 24, 2006	Ha, ha, ha. Thanks for the info!

ARRHHGG!;-) (nt), posted on February 5, 2010 at 00:16:54
twystd Audiophile Posts: 2723 Location: Austin,Texas Joined: December 9, 2000	.

Am I disagreeing?, posted on February 5, 2010 at 00:43:58

Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005

I bought these 6Π3S-E when they first became popular. They were unmatched and untested. I use them in an amp with cathode-bias. I have no idea what they bias at. They do not sound thin. I got three bunches of them. I kept 1 bunch and gave the other two away to a guitar-playing friend who was paying insane danish prices for 5881 tubes. He biases them "by ear" only. The first time we biased them, they sounded good over a pretty wide range - maybe a whole turn of a screw driver. The first ones haven't died yet after about 3 years of use.

RE: ARRHHGG!;-) (nt), posted on February 5, 2010 at 05:48:03

Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009

Hi Twystd:
Just a note on biasing. I dont think you can say universally to bias at 45ma--it depends on the amp. In my Rogue, I dont even bias KT88 that high. The recommended bias for KT88 is 40ma, and I bias the 6P3S-E at 35ma. No thin sound here! In fact, after 15 hours I can say that these are amoung the best power tubes I have used in the amp and I have most of the "legendary" power tubes available here.

Yeah there's more to it than 45ma., posted on February 5, 2010 at 08:37:27

twystd
Audiophile

Posts: 2723
Location: Austin,Texas
Joined: December 9, 2000

Watts of dissipation is probably more key, but didn't want to get into a dissertation on all that. Just wanted to point out that if they sound thin you probably aren't running them hard enough. In the audio amps I've set up, I try for the max rating of 21 watts of dissipation, and in most of the audio amps I've worked on, this worked out to be about 45ma. Of course that will vary depending on how much B+ the supply has.

twystd

In a Push Pull amp, posted on February 5, 2010 at 09:47:26

drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005

Hi,

You report:

"I bought these 6Π3S-E when they first became popular. They were unmatched and untested. I use them in an amp with cathode-bias. I have no idea what they bias at."

Measure the VDC at the top of the Rk (cathode bias resistor), and use Ohm's Law to compute current.

However, you need to FIRST match these output tubes, if used in a Push-Pull amp.

In a group of 16, I got wide-spaced readings, at actual operating voltages, of current draw (440 vdc p-k, MINUS 41.5 vdc Fixed Bias), gave the following current draws :

40.2, 43.4, 46.0, 46.3, 47.2, 47.5, 48.2, 48.3, 49.0, 53.4, 54.3, 58.1, 62.0, 62.2, 63.6, 66.7 mA.

It is impossible to get matches by "looking" at these Ruskie tubes intently. :-)

One should measure them, at actual operating voltages, and not in the typical (low voltage) tube tester, to be sure.

I devised a resistor-mod to the Fixed Bias network, on a friend's Dyna ST-70, to get the tubes to bias at conservative plate dissipations.

Jeff Medwin

that 5881 guitar amp, posted on February 5, 2010 at 11:51:20
FenderLover	I haven't heard of a new model 5881 OEM guitar amp. Was it a Bassman Re-issue? Any was it running about 415-425 VDC onto the plates? Thanks!

Why? They work great as is., posted on February 5, 2010 at 12:17:27
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	They are among the tubes I like best. Yes it is PP-UL.

WHACK !!!, posted on February 5, 2010 at 12:55:45
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	If one pulls 60 mA., and the other is 42 MA., you have 18 mA. of unbalanced current in the output trannie. Also, they are dynamically unbalanced !! Jeff

Think positive Nt, posted on February 5, 2010 at 15:15:09
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	Nt

RE: that 5881 guitar amp, posted on February 5, 2010 at 15:23:51
twystd Audiophile Posts: 2723 Location: Austin,Texas Joined: December 9, 2000	It was a mid 60s Bassman with the solid state rectifier. This is embarrassing, but to tell you the truth, I didn't even measure the voltage, just dropped them in and sounded great. twystd

RE: that 5881 guitar amp, posted on February 5, 2010 at 15:51:16
FenderLover	It's cool. Mid 1960's prolly makes it an AA165 circuit. Think that they ran around 450VDC on the plates. Thanks, again.

RE: So which sounds better - 6P3S-E or 6N3CE ?, posted on February 6, 2010 at 03:44:44
Michael Samra Dealer Posts: 36118 Location: saginaw michigan Joined: January 30, 2005	Jack I knew you were yankin our chains on that one. "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

heh-heh-heh..., posted on February 6, 2010 at 04:05:08
PakProtector Audiophile Posts: 12364 Joined: May 14, 2002	Frihed, if the amp sounds good then it is...:) measurements are meaningless...it is all in the ear. Now if it were me, it might be interesting to discover just why the amp sounds so good. Is it because the tubes are perfectly matched, or perhaps because they're not? cheers, Douglas Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

Agreed Twystd. These people that want to say that these are the same 5881 sovtek, posted on February 6, 2010 at 04:15:16

Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005

have just not heard this tube.Yes,they look alike at visual inspection but,the metal content is different as is the barium content and grid type and spacing. Also,these tubes don't carry the 5881 number because they are not a 5881 wxt.
Now, I have yet to find anyone that didn't love this tube and that was even putting them in EL34 Marantz amps.You do have to rebias them but let me ask you guys something.Have you ever known Jim or me or Twystd to lead you guys down a blind alley somewhere? It was the same with k40 pio caps or russian teflons of silver micas in that there was maybe 2 out of 100 people that didn't care for them but most of the time it was because they didn't give the caps enough time before evaluation.Once they revisited the caps,they found a happier scenario.
When we tell you these are not the same tubes as the Sovteks,please believe us as we are not going to put our fannies on the line if we can't back up what we say.
When you see two hot looking women that look somewhat a like because they have the same build,hair color, and complexion, and then you find out one has brains, and is good in the sack and can cook while the other one is lousy in the sack and maybe has bad breath and stupid as can be.Its the same issue with these tubes in that you can't assume they perform the same because look the same because they don't!!

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

It is too bad..., posted on February 7, 2010 at 14:55:56

Valva Actual
Audiophile

Posts: 183
Location: PNW, USA
Joined: December 19, 2009

that you feel aggravated enough to get your panties in a twist. I have appreciated your quality posting over the years.

I am afraid I may have contributed somewhat to your dyspeptis, as these tubes didn't work in my amp--which is essentially an EL34 amp. It simply does not work. I have biased it from the muddy lows of the Volga River to the lofty heights of St. Basil's Cathedral--I thought it was gonna blow, Captain!! ...and the music remained a gilded facsimile of the recording. Pretty, very pleasant, but not right.

Oh, well. Sorta makes me want to find a 6L6 amp to use, just to hear these in their proper element--which my circuit is not. Those who have implied that those who cannot get these tubes singing in their circuit are dimwits need to chill.

I am glad to have been steered toward a new tube, even if it was ultimately just an exercise.

RE: It is too bad..., posted on February 7, 2010 at 18:00:21
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	QUESTION: Your EL-34 amp: What was the driver tube, and its op point, in your amp to drive the Ruskie finals? (Bias changes alone can't make up for a weak driver stage.) Jeff

Just my way of getting everyones attention., posted on February 8, 2010 at 10:55:45

twystd
Audiophile

Posts: 2723
Location: Austin,Texas
Joined: December 9, 2000

Things were really out of control about these tubes, all kinds of folks jumping to erroneous conclusions (same as a Sovtek 5881). No telling what somebody was going to call the tube next, way too much confusion. I've had people email me and ask why they couldn't find that 6s3p-e tube on ebay.

Sorry it didn't work for you, like I posted, if you do bias it correctly and it still doesn't sound good, then that's one thing. Apparently the synergy isn't there for your system, that's legit. Running it at 30ma and 10 watts dissipation and saying it sounds thin is not. I read a post from someone who was running the tubes so low they were cool to the touch. He was amazed about their toughness, but said they sounded thin. I guess so, when biased at 21 watts dissipation, there is no way you want to touch them.

Anyway I never claimed these are the best tubes every, just sounded good in the apps I've tried. They do represent a great audio bargain.

twystd.

Another thing to note, they do require a long-ish break- in period, IME. (n/t), posted on February 8, 2010 at 16:18:18
Cory M. Audiophile Posts: 1172 Location: Midwest Joined: April 10, 2005	. Cory

Not EL34 Replacements, posted on February 9, 2010 at 05:42:50
Triode_Kingdom Audiophile Posts: 10047 Location: Central Texas Joined: September 24, 2006	Seems to me, these need a higher load Z than most EL34 amplifiers provide. Even if the difference in anode dissipation can be ignored, I don't think they're a viable sub.

RE: Alright, I'm sick of this stuff, get it straight on the 6P3S-E and read this post!, posted on February 23, 2017 at 20:12:24
Detune Audiophile Posts: 7 Location: Southeastern US Joined: February 23, 2017	The 50 watt+ Zinky amps and new Supro amps use the Sovtek 5881WXT, and some have plate voltages upward of 550 like my MOFO. I am curious how much better these 6P3S-E's are in a circuit designed around the Sovtek like the Zinky and Soldano units with the high B+. I bought some years ago but they may have been 90's, perhaps the 60's and 70's ones are the cat's pajamas?

Tubes Asylum

Alright, I'm sick of this stuff, get it straight on the 6P3S-E and read this post!

70.113.114.93