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Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path

71.50.30.115
Posted on December 4, 2016 at 17:49:47
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



In my recently pictured new 2A3 DC SET amp build, I was horrified looking at the excessive lead lengths I used, from the Driver stage's cathode resistor ( Rk ) to the WIMA DC LINK film caps ( bypass caps for the Rk ) - - placed in either top chassis corner.

This afternoon, I corrected that by eliminating 18 full inches of that originally used blue Mil Spec wire. Each " positive " of the Rk now uses under 1 1/4 inches of ( blue ) lead length, to two newly-added WIMA film Rk bypass caps.

Besides a much shorter connection, I instituted two other changes :

(1) I added 1/4 inch thickness of cork, to the underside of each Rk film cap, so it will be elevated OFF the fields from the 12 gauge steel chassis, used 3M Industrial Contact Cement to bond it all.

(2) I purposely orientated the two WIMA Rk bypass caps' terminals so they were positioned in the chassis HORIZONATLLY. This puts the cap's terminal in much closer proximity to the Cathode Resistor, allowing for a shorter leads.

One still can easily see how to shorten the Green 12 AWG ground wire, by maybe two more inches, and I will do that next, tomorrow.

--------------------------------------------------------


SO the question is this : what did 18 inches less of Rk bypass wire ( the blue 14 AWG Mil Spec wire ) in the two photos ACTUALLY DO ??


ITS LOVELY !! Amp sounds at least 7-10% better, subjectively.

Plays more powerfully, with even greater DYNAMIC contrasting, at least 10% better, which BLOWS me away.

Plays with more FOCUS.

Plays complex background choruses with more resolution and presence.

Plays with better, richer HARMONIC structures, of all instruments, piano, voice, ..... all more complete and more honest sounding.

Plays in a more musically involving manner.

Doing and HEARING all these sonic differences was a BIG lesson to me today.

Don't assume and make a similar mistake as me....an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience.

Jeff Medwin

 

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RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 4, 2016 at 18:45:04
FenderLover
 Very, very neat layout and solder work. Esp, for all the wiring.

How do you keep all the connecting wires to the center grounding post at the same potential? Resistance-wise? Do you run a grounding strap across all the connections and solder it to the connectors?

Thanks!

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 4, 2016 at 19:28:29
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Good question. Thanks.

I do it in a very UN-approved, unconventional way.

I run a single 6/32nd brass bolt, maybe 1 3/4s inch long, through the chassis as a single-point star ground, and attach ring ( not spade ) terminals for all the ground returns to the brass bolt. I will often have to use two ( 12 AWG Mil Spec ) ground leads, into each ferrule, to get it all to fit. Tighten it down with a brass 6/32nd nut, brass washer, and lock washer.

You can see it very clearly by clicking on the URL below. Two good photos of it.

Jeff

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 4, 2016 at 19:45:45
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 Still looks real good there Jeffery! and like I suggested for your next build, Do a dual Chassis no shared common or signal grounds! could be another 10% improvement possibly much more one of your fav mentors Dennis does not use single chassis I wonder why!? :)


Still waiting for your Invite I want to hear some fmi records!!


Lawrence

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 4, 2016 at 21:17:31
elblanco
Audiophile

Posts: 3486
Joined: August 20, 2004
 do you know what the conductivity of brass is?

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 4, 2016 at 23:10:24
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hello Elblanco,

No. Do you ? And also, does it matter?

When ten ring terminals are stacked over the 6/32nd bolt, is the surface area and conductivity of the stacked ring terminals more of a dominating factor, than the conductivity of the brass??

For each channel's main ground, I use DOUBLED-UP 12 AWG Mil Spec wire, which equals about 9 AWG, as well as for the primaries of both power transformers, instead of the stock power transformer's typical 22 AWG primary wire.

If someone has well thought out suggestions on an alternate way to execute a single point ground, with multiple 9 and 12 AWG ground wires, show this to us all for us to ponder, and possibly adapt. Some may have a fabulous idea. I'll adapt it if I think I like it better.


Jeff

 

In order of Conductivity..., posted on December 5, 2016 at 11:39:16
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 Conductivity & Resistivity in Metals
Material

Resistivity
p(Ωm) at 20°C

Conductivity
σ(S/m) at 20°C
Silver 1.59x10-8 6.30x107
Copper 1.68x10-8 5.98x107
Annealed Copper 1.72x10-8 5.80x107
Gold 2.44x10-8 4.52x107
Aluminum 2.82x10-8 3.5x107
Calcium 3.36x10-8 2.82x107
Beryllium 4.00x10-8 2.500x107
Rhodium 4.49x10-8 2.23x107
Magnesium 4.66x10-8 2.15x107
Molybdenum 5.225x10-8 1.914x107
Iridium 5.289x10-8 1.891x107
Tungsten 5.49x10-8 1.82x107
Zinc 5.945x10-8 1.682x107
Cobalt 6.25x10-8 1.60x107
Cadmium 6.84x10-8 1.467
Nickel (electrolytic) 6.84x10-8 1.46x107
Ruthenium 7.595x10-8 1.31x107
Lithium 8.54x10-8 1.17x107
Iron 9.58x10-8 1.04x107
Platinum 1.06x10-7 9.44x106
Palladium 1.08x10-7 9.28x106
Tin 1.15x10-7 8.7x106
Selenium 1.197x10-7 8.35x106
Tantalum 1.24x10-7 8.06x106
Niobium 1.31x10-7 7.66x106
Steel (Cast) 1.61x10-7 6.21x106
Chromium 1.96x10-7 5.10x106
Lead 2.05x10-7 4.87x106
Vanadium 2.61x10-7 3.83x106
Uranium 2.87x10-7 3.48x106
Antimony* 3.92x10-7 2.55x106
Zirconium 4.105x10-7 2.44x106
Titanium 5.56x10-7 1.798x106
Mercury 9.58x10-7 1.044x106
Germanium* 4.6x10-1 2.17
Silicon* 6.40x102 1.56x10-3

*Note: The resistivity of semiconductors (metalloids) is heavily dependent on the presence of impurities in the material.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

"does it matter?" Now you are just being silly, "one inch of wire can ruin ..."~nT, posted on December 5, 2016 at 11:40:49
Cleantimestream
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Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: In order of Conductivity..., posted on December 5, 2016 at 12:33:15
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 ;>) Don't you know that ALL equipment sounds bad, as electric power is carried cross country on steel cored aluminum cables? ;>)

Hard facts ascertained in the laboratory mean nothing to "True Believers". :>(( "Don't bother me with facts. I know the 'TRUTH'."


Eli D.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 5, 2016 at 18:30:27
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 I used a very small diameter(1/4 inch) piece of copper tubing across the entire chassis mounted to the chassis on one side of the copper only floating the other side. Or you can use Goop and put a few thick dots of it on the chassis and press lightly the copper tubing so it sets into the Goop but remains off the chassis itself. Then connect a small piece of wire soldered to the tubing and attached to the chassis in one spot. All your ground connections can now go to the copper tubing and it will act as a star ground. Very neat and you can use as much tubing as you want as long as if you make any turns that the tubing is soldered together but remains off the chassis except in one spot.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 5, 2016 at 18:35:42
xaudiomanx
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Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004






This isn't the neatest I ever did but I'm sure you can see the copper tubing and get the idea.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 5, 2016 at 18:48:48
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Jeff,

What is the difference between an eyelet and a spade? And why is one better than another? At the point of the soldering terminal(I guess it's to hold the wire neatly) are they one solid length with the insulation stripped(for soldering purposes) or is the terminal a meeting place for two separate ground wires to meet?

I've always heard that one long wire length is better than connecting two separate ones with solder when it comes to grounding. Don't know why but this is what was told to me by what I feel are qualified builders and techs.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 02:32:32
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 Hi Jeff,

That is some neat implementation. Looks sweet. Looks like you have also reduced the use of those tags - fewer connections/ intermediate materials.

Also great to see you are starting to recognise the deleterious effects of unwanted capacitive coupling between components and chassis; a ways to go, but you are getting there! Component-to-component coupling is also an issues, especially capacitors...

I like a short/ direct current loop from the cathode to the PSU cap. This is one of my issues with a single star ground - the current loops are long. Sure, you are direct to the 0v ground reference, but the current (signal) continues all the way back to the PS caps and power transformer.

Nice work Jeff - your efforts are clearly delivering some very real benefits for your efforts.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 10:28:07
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Nice to hear from you. Thanks for your kindness.

I intend to re-do the Rk bypass yet another time, and have figured out a really decent approach. MAY post a photo if I do it as I have planned.

The general goal for me, from now ON, is to have 1 inch , 1 1/4 inch from Rk to the positive voltage terminal on the Rk bypass ( main ) cap. But NEXT, I wanna add film bypasses to the main Film Cap.

Live and learn.

Jeff

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 10:39:34
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi,

I edited the above post. I was using the wrong word - for sure. Apologies.

I use ( not eyelet) but a RING terminals over the central bolt, not SPADE terminals. The ring terminal stays captive, and the spade could be " less permanent" and slip OFF the bolt.

Both the ring and spade terminal DO have an eyelet on their " other " end. And, I generally use a separate ground return for each function, but I will sometime combine two 12 AWG Mil Spec wires into a single ring terminal's eyelet, so everything all " fits " on the one star bolt.

Is that a clearer description, Hope So !!

Thanks for putting up with me.

Jeff

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 10:44:43
drlowmu
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Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Thanks, so much, for posting that. I need to THINK about that for the next couple of days.

ONE of the things I am wondering about is this : Would the bandwidth of that Copper Pipe come into play, from one end, to the other? I think it would, off the top of my head.

In which case, I would tend to want to use some Mil Spec wire, copper stranded, individually silver-plated strands, to have a wide-band ground, suitable for audio " returns ". Maybe, instead of the pipe, a beefy 10 AWG length of M22759/11 10 . Just thinking out loud.

Jeff

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 13:54:33
Lew
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Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I've used the solid core 12-ga copper ground conductor, removed from 12-ga, 3-conductor Romex, as a ground much as Xaudio has used the copper pipe. I ran it from the ground side of the female RCA input jack straight across the chassis, terminated in a stand-off to isolate the other end from the chassis. But why do you think the pipe would be inferior to solid copper, except for the possibility that the quality of the copper used to make plumbing pipe these days is likely to be the lowest possible? The amount of copper per unit of length is likely to be higher in the pipe vs even 10-ga solid core. (I am guessing of course.) In your case, you could use two runs of 12-ga, for a net of 9-ga.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 15:48:29
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Lew !!

I was NOT suggesting solid core copper at all. What is the band-width of solid copper 10 AWG, or 6 AWG for that matter??

Re-read my post please. I think you assumed solid core copper.

I suggested/mentioned as an example, 10 AWG Mil Spec STRANDED Copper, silver plated. PTFE insulated to 600 VDC, stranded 37/26, and about 0.14 inches O.D.

I have been computing power supplies for another DC two-stage amp, almost ALL day, and my mind is fried.

Cheers,

Jeff

 

stranded wire????, posted on December 6, 2016 at 20:21:27
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 From a pragmatic point of view, stranded copper is very flexible, and I personally have never seen it supplied as bare wire. As bare wire, it also might tend to fall apart into separate strands. You'd have to strip a long length of it, but I guess you would do that; I would not. I would worry that if it flexed it might come into contact with some part of the circuit that you don't want to be grounded. I like solid core for this, just because it is stiff, like the copper pipe.

I don't understand the reference to band-width; after all, you are grounding to the chassis. What is the "band-width" of the chassis? Anyway, I also don't see how ordinary stranded wire of a given gauge would be much different in band-width from solid core wire of similar gauge.

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 6, 2016 at 21:13:27
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 Live and learn - certainly, I am looking to learn more in this coming year. Easing back on the "busy work" and focussing on the important stuff - like building my next amp.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 6, 2016 at 22:02:47
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Lew,

Is solid copper 10 AWG good - as a speaker wire? Would we use it ??

I mentioned a couple of times, this is PTFE coated ( teflon ) Mil Spec wire.

Q1 : What do you think the surface area differences would be, between 10 AWG solid copper and 37/26 stranded copper?

Q2 : What do you think would be the high frequency bandwidth differences, when every strand of the 37/26 is individually silver plated??

These are the things I question, as to potential fidelity differences between the two.

In my simple way of thinking, there is a far greater surface area stranded, and also a far better conductivity of high frequencies due to the silver.

Could you acknowledge my simple thoughts, at all ??


Jeff

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 03:12:07
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Anyway, I also don't see how ordinary stranded wire of a given gauge would be much different in band-width from solid core wire of similar gauge."

You are absolutely right. The effects he is talking about are minuscule at audio frequencies. Unfortunately some "audiophiles" who lack technical understanding will latch on to fine technical points when it suits them, ignore the tiny magnitude of what is being talked about in comparison to other factors at play in the context under discussion, and then promote their particular "fad" as the true road to nirvana.

Intelligent discussions of the issues involved here, including the skin effect, the relative conductivity of stranded versus solid wires, etc., can be found in articles available on the internet. I came across this one near the top of the list when I googled for skin effect.

Chris

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:00:51
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Chris,

You are incorrect as you often are, on the finer points in audio.

One can see this right away, through your Moniker. The "OTL" in your cpotl Moniker, I believe, stands for OTL amps.

NO ONE I know in highest-end audio uses a OTL tube amp. The high end in tube audio is SET, with highly efficient speakers, of at least 98 dB, to capture DYNAMICS with an under 4 Watt SET amp, which is the limit on power versus performance / best sonics. But, alas, I contend very FEW ever know how to build the 2 or 3 Watt SET amp right.

You LOVE to criticize me, at every turn, and you will open your mouth in such a fashion whenever you possibly can.

But you ONLY talk theory, whereas I feel it is the SOUND and audible performance what matters. You miss the fine points, and you are LOST in audio - due to your use of low efficiency speakers and the complex/ugly tube amps that need to drive them.

Oh well, we must respectfully leave room for everyone to be able to comment and express their views. But what I wrote herein is how I have felt about you, for many years. Its really a shame that you have never ever experienced a top-notch stereo set up. It could possibly be educational for you.

About the ONLY low-efficiency set up I can tolerate, is the complete MBL system, with their omni speakers, AND, including their solid state amps. But it must cost $500 K, complete. Lovely to me, to hear at shows, each time they exhibit.

Continue on, my friend.

Jeff Medwin

PS : How many people do we all know, who use SOLID 10 AWG solid copper wire for speaker leads?

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:22:16
FenderLover
 FenderLover puts on funky moderator hat...

Can we keep the argument to implementation of wires? Per the original post. Pretty soon you two will be arguing about the cars you drive. Wine you drink. Women you feel are pretty & ugly.

Thanks!

Hat removed...


8^)

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:23:37
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 I never make any claim that OTL amps are the "highest end" end in audio. And certainly SET amps are not the "highest end" in audio either.

I criticise when I see people making pseudo-scientific technical claims that are either incorrect or that are misleading on the grounds of the insignificance of the alleged effect. I put many of your claims about wire into one or other of those categories.

I don't know where you get the idea that I use low-efficiency speakers, unless your idea of high efficiency is very different from mine. I use Lowther drivers, which are a little bit over 100dB efficiency. In my book, that would qualify as high efficiency.

Since you seem to think that the bandwidth capability of solid 10 AWG copper wire is significantly lower than for silver-plated 37/26 stranded wire, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all with a quantitative estimate of the differences that would be expected in an audio amplifier?

Chris

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:45:12
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Dear Jeff,
You wrote, "NO ONE I know in highest-end audio uses a OTL tube amp. The high end in tube audio is SET, with highly efficient speakers, of at least 98 dB, to capture DYNAMICS with an under 4 Watt SET amp,..."

The part about "no one in highest-end audio" is preposterous. You really mean "no one with whom I closely associate myself and my work, and no one I deify". (Of course, I freely admit that I use OTL tube amps myself, so naturally I would be offended by your declamation.) Even assuming that Nirvana lies only in the direction of hyper-efficient speakers, who is to say that one could not use an OTL to drive such speakers. Such speakers are optimally high in impedance, which suits both SET amplifiers and OTL amplifiers just fine. I certainly do respect and am interested in SET amplifiers; why do you retreat behind such a gross generalization? It doesn't make you look good.

Now, I really do not give a rat's butt what you think about what I like in audio, so can you just go ahead and say what you meant by your allusion to bandwidth in a ground buss and how you think stranded wire might be superior to solid core in this regard? Thanks.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:46:17
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You are correct, 100%. I just got fed up at ten years of his nagging, and snapped a little. I am sure Chris gets fed up with my posting also. :-) Fun. I should ignore him.

I am re-doing the new 2A3 DC amp's driver stage shorter Rk wiring, for a third time, in the days and weeks ahead, to include proper multiple film cap bypassing, so the amp plays music linearly to my ear. THATs the next chore.... a big one. Executing the Rk bypass cap function PROPERLY and linearly. Its never one film cap, usually about six in parallel!!

Maybe I'll post a photo as it progresses some and gets interesting to view, or instructive.

Jeff

 

Thanks., posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:48:49
FenderLover
 Photos are always nice. Worth a thousand (or more) words.

8^)

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:58:34
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Q1: I don't know what the difference in surface area would be, but I don't think the calculation applies to this situation. Does it matter to you that all the strands in "stranded wire" are in contact with one another, throughout the length of the wire? Wouldn't this largely negate, in conducting terms, any benefit due to a larger surface area of the stranded wire, if one were to calculate the surface area of each strand and multiply by the number of strands, assuming your choice in stranded wire is similar in total gauge to 10-ga solid core? I am no EE, but I do not believe stranded wire behaves as if it were a bundle of separated conductors. For that you want Litz wire, where strands are insulated from one another along the length of the wire. OR, you could use several strands of thin gauge solid core in parallel.
Q2: See my response to Q1. In addition, my reading tells me that contact among strands in stranded wire, silver-coated or not, can create undesirable diodic effects along the wire. (This too is theory, so subject to criticism and analysis that I am not qualified to evaluate, but it makes sense.)

Teflon coated, you say. So, how are you going to use this wire in a fashion similar to what Xaudio did with the copper pipe? You'd need to strip away the teflon coat in order to solder your grounds to it. That was my point in my earlier post. This started out as a simple question; I did not mean to pick a fight.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 08:08:55
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Lew,

Its taken me a long time, the last ten years, and over 60 years of audio listening, to get BACK into the high efficiency camp. I use a 515B and 802D, in a modded VOTT enclosure.

The less we mess with the signal, the better of a chance we have to keep it intact.

As soon as you "split phase", we have a degrade in the tube amp. That rules out P-P and OTL amps from being the best possible. As soon as we parallel tubes we get a choir effect. So Lew, these are the things that come to my mind, (and to my ear), when I hear and aspire to obtain a proper system.

Amps, NOT SPEAKERS, are the biggest turkeys and weakest link in audio. Darn FEW SETs, BTW, are listenable / acceptable to me.

Lew, have you ever heard any 2A3 amp, over time, in a carefully set up system, that Mr. Dennis Fraker built? Probably not. THEN, you would understand, where I come from !!


It took ME ten years, of going to RMAF shows each year, and listening to Dennis' builds, to figure this all out. My new present amp, BTW, I feel will GET me where I wanna be. It IS Dennis' design ideas, and it replaces two sucked-out midrange SET DCed 45 amps I previously self-designed, built, and used for 2015-2016 !!

I am excited and pleased as punch.

Jeff

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 08:28:11
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 Hey,

I am with you on the skin effect being trivial at audio frequencies and I do prefer solid core wire. Unfortunately for many uses it becomes problematic. I don't use #10 solid for speaker wire due to its rigidity and when you get to the finer sizes it becomes quite fragile. A single #28 will eventually break if flexed however 4 twisted strands of #34 will be quite durable.

This leads into another issue with stranded wire and that is the strand to strand junctions that occur. Unless you are using Litz wire or wire in an oxygen free environment the copper will oxidize over time and copper oxide is a nasty conductor. Silver plating the copper helps this immensely since silver oxide is a much better conductor but now you have introduced dissimilar metal junctions which according to many are also bad for audio. (I also seem to recall some wire manufacturer claiming to remove all oxygen from the wire during the process of extruding the insulation over it to prevent the oxidation)

I am curious as to your thoughts on any of this.

dave

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 09:09:23
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 I would like to make a few comments if i may.


silver plated copper wire the silver oxidizes but still conducts to a certain extent but its not good ask the many many people who have a certain phono stage that uses silver plated contacts how there equipment sounds after cleaning them. Silver oxide is not good!

besides litz magnet wire the BEST would be tin plated copper! and IMO sounds better then silver plated wire.


just some thoughts


Lawrence

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 09:14:23
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 Jeff if what your saying is true about PP tube or SS why did Robert Fulton use it?

His best amplifier (locker amplfier) was a PP tube type!


I will also say that his knowledge and understanding was far greater then me you or most people agree?

Single ended does sound different not necessary better but different

best amp so far i used with my big fultons HK430!!!

I am almost done building a prototype of my gm70 pset driven by HK430's preamp


Lawrence

 

Bad for audio?, posted on December 7, 2016 at 09:45:18
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Does that mean it's not bad for video, RF, data streams?

This "micro diode" farce has been going on for years. yet to date nobody has modeled said diode. What for example is the forward voltage? Because we know that once the forward voltage is exceeded, the diode is basically just a small value resistor. Millions of analog audio, video, and RF switch circuits are based on this principle.

So if diodes can be made by wire strands touching each other, why has none of this been documented and quantified in accredited circles?

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 11:00:27
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Robert Fulton struggled mightily to find amps. He had me build a tube amp, just the two of us, all-out.

Robert and I agreed, had many conversations, that amps are the weakest link. If a Harmon Kardon 430 receiver is your current reference, so be it. Glad you are satisfied. I've had the dance and walked the walk with Fulton speakers, etc., and I am happier NOT using them in 2016.

With this November 2016 amp, I now get the best sound I've had, and am very pleased. It will get better as I refine the new circuit.

If you had my direct experience with Fulton, you may have come to my present conclusions. But no doubt - I still do LOVE Robert, to this day !!

Jeff


 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 11:29:24
megasat16
Audiophile

Posts: 207
Location: SoCal
Joined: April 15, 2015
 I have known people who use Romex 10AWG wires as the speaker wire and touted as the best $ spent.

Well, I usually leave them alone without any comment.

Actually, Romex 10AWG wire sounds as decent as any stranded speaker wire on a crappy system and can't find a fault of it's own.
.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 11:51:40
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 Hi Dave,

I must admit to being skeptical about most of the claims of noticeable effects resulting from diode junctions between dissimilar or oxidised surfaces, etc. Would there, for example, actually be any significant potential difference across the junction in any case? If not, it is hardly going to matter whether it is a diode, or non-linear in any other way. If we consider some poor contact between two adjacent strands in a multi-strand wire, then the potentials at side-by-side points on the two wires would in any case be essentially equal, and so no significant potential difference between them.

It seems to be a little bit like worrying about whether a diode connected in parallel with a piece of wire will affect the signal transmission properties of the wire. The answer is no, since the potential difference across the diode will be essentially zero, so it never has any possibility of injecting non-linearities into the signal.

And in a case like an interconnection wire between tube stages in an amplifier, the impedance of the wire is utterly insignificant compared to the input impedance of the stage it is connected to, and so things like the skin effect, the possibility of non-linearities from diode junctions, and so on, is even less important than in a higher-current application like a speaker cable.

If these alleged effects actually occurred then they would be measurable. As far as I know, there are no substantiated reports of such things occurring. Of course some audiophiles want to have it both ways; they will invoke the alleged "science" of diode junctions at oxidised surface interfaces in order to justify why they spend astronomical sums of money on super-pure cryogenically-treated wire or whatever, but will then instantly reject science when anyone suggests actually trying to measure the effects they are talking about...

I think some "high-end" manufacturers have perfected the art of pulling money from the audiophiles' wallets while they pull oxygen out of the wire.

Chris

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 12:55:50
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 >> Amps are the weakest link <<

Jeff,

What sources do you use and what is your preferred source material? Vinyl, CD, MP3, Reel to Reel? Does the front end not mean as much as the amplifier? I got out of vinyl because it can be a rabbit hole...just wondering about your thoughts on front end and whether it makes any real difference.

 

Well and good. Now, can we get to the question about bandwidth,..., posted on December 7, 2016 at 14:06:55
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 in a ground buss?

There is much to discuss with respect to PP, OTL, speakers vs amplifiers, but I know very well where you stand on those issues, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. Each of us has a bias, or several biases.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 16:43:32
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 Hi Jeff.
I've been reading some of your posts recently and I have to wonder why you are obsessed with an amps bandwidth when you use a speaker that has no low bass and not very extended highs. The VOTT is well known to be a great mid-range reproducer but no amplifier will squeeze sound out of those speakers that they aren't capable of reproducing. Piling extra weight on the box won't extend the bass in the 828 cab and choosing different caps and wiring won't let those highs come through the 802/811 combo.
Dynamics, yes. Full range sound, no. So what's the point?
Not that someone in our age bracket should be concerned about frequency extremes anyway.

 

Sometimes it's due to honest but backwards logic, posted on December 7, 2016 at 17:34:59
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 You mess around with wire. You decide based probably upon one or two experiences that you prefer solid core to stranded wire, all else being equal. You then wonder why that is. Then without any data you design and carry out what Einstein called a thought experiment, except we are not Einsteins. This method of deduction leads you to think up a possible explanation that may have no relevance at all to what you heard or thought you heard and may not even be happening in real life. Nevertheless, you write it down somewhere, and it gets read by other people. They tell their friends, and after a while, your pure conjecture based on no evidence and shaky theory becomes gospel truth.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 7, 2016 at 18:35:26
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 To be clear, I never mentioned diodes or micro diodes or suggested any technical reason as to why. I am more interested in thought into the "if"

I do know that I have some switch contacts here for an attenuator that are on bare copper circuit boards and after about three weeks they become noisy. (I presume from oxidation) If I disassemble and clean the contacts I am good for another three weeks. Obviously the potentials involved here are much higher than that in adjacent pieces of uninsulated wire but it is clear to me that a gold wiper on a copper pad can become noisy. This project was to test a circuit board layout prior to putting up the serious coin for the hard gold plating required for the contacts but it was the noise that got me "wondering"

And in a case like an interconnection wire between tube stages in an amplifier, the impedance of the wire is utterly insignificant compared to the input impedance of the stage it is connected to, and so things like the skin effect, the possibility of non-linearities from diode junctions, and so on, is even less important than in a higher-current application like a speaker cable.

I see this as a very slippery slope. If we adhere to the above thought, a piece of wire cut into 100 pieces and resoldered back together must also be inaudible in a high impedance circuit. I realize that is as extreme as saying an inch of wire.... but if we are going to explore we need to look at the extremes in order to find reality which typically lies somewhere in the middle.




 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 8, 2016 at 02:49:59
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "I see this as a very slippery slope. If we adhere to the above thought, a piece of wire cut into 100 pieces and resoldered back together must also be inaudible in a high impedance circuit."

Well, OK, let's consider this example further. I must admit I have a hard time thinking of any reason why the 100-segment soldered wire would be audible in this context (connecting to a high-impedance next stage). What kind of effects do you have in mind?

Are you thinking of something that could also be measured? If so, we could try to estimate the order of magnitude of the effect, and then try to decide whether it could be audible.

Chris

 

Amp being the most important part of the system, posted on December 8, 2016 at 05:23:11
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I replied to your post at the bottom but you may have missed it. I was wondering what you used for your source? Turntable, CD Player, Music Server, Reel to Reel etc and what are your thoughts on the importance of the front end relative to the amp, preamp and speakers and wire? Also, do you get hung up on cheap vinyl, versus 180g vinyl versus 200g vinyl? I got out of vinyl as it was a rabbit hole....Down to cleaning solutions....I can't remember what source you used and where you favored SACD to redbook or where you are on the different digital formats and which sounds better? Also, what DAC topography do you favor and what chips sound best? Not a debate....just wondering how you felt about these things and whether you think they are important?

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 8, 2016 at 07:51:28
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 Are you thinking of something that could also be measured? If so, we could try to estimate the order of magnitude of the effect, and then try to decide whether it could be audible.

I end up teetering from the middle to both of the extremes on this one where I say I'm not sure if it were measurable and as lew mentioned people are quick to hear a difference and then measure a difference and attach the two points with a very scientific looking crayon.

My guess is it would be audible and that would be the first thing I would look into determining. I don't want to fall off the ABX cliff nor do I want to dive into the chasm of we cannot measure everything we can hear. I am not interested in the black or white arguments since they never universally hold water I just like exploring the 80º azure grey waters inbetween a puddle in in Flint Michigan and the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

dave

 

RE: Amp being the most important part of the system, posted on December 8, 2016 at 11:24:18
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I had a decent phono unit, and have about 10,000 LPs at home, which I have collected since 1962.

My preamp, however, developed a problem, putting out pulses, so since mid 2016, I have NO phono capability. I hope, in 2017, to rectify that.

I also have been using, last two years, a Pioneer Elite BPD-09 Blue Ray player, and just Redbook CD s as a repeatable and reliable source.

For four decades, I find most fault with ( most ) amps, and feel that they are in need of most help, in the entire chain.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Amp being the most important part of the system, posted on December 8, 2016 at 11:47:42
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 OK. Just wondering. I have gone through a few turntable set ups / tone arms / cartridges and even digital players and DACs along with a bunch of amps and have come to the conclusion that it all matters to some degree. Nothing worse for me than bad source players. My guess is that if you could fiddle around with digital circuits, you may find that increasingly important if you listen to a lot of digital. Going to a transformer coupled DAC made a big difference for me. I also prefer the pioneer stable player drive to most others. A well built psu is also important in a DAC. As for phono stages, when I was listening to LPs, I preferred step up phono stages and liked the S&B nickel units over some others that I had. A lot of rabbit holes in audiophilia.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 8, 2016 at 11:59:23
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi,

No one, except ME so far, has ever heard a VOTT can do, with MY amp on it ! :-) I THINK I may have a " NEW Ball Game ", on hand here. But its difficult to be objective with your own builds. We will see, or hear in the near future !!!!

Its taken me three amp builds, last two years, to FINALLY become happy with my ALTECS. Two DC Type 45 amps, which had a broad, shallow mid range suck out, ( no one wants to acknowledge ), and now, this JJ 2A3-40 as a final and, at last, an enjoyable solution.

Kyle, even if we only hear narrow band, as we age, the amp has to be able to play the highs realistically and honestly, for us to hear the MIDRANGE properly.

I feel there are resultants on high, that come down the scale into the midrange. As we age, we hear those resultants, and judge easily what sounds real or canned.

I recall Bob Fulton, in about 1983 give or take, tell me about an 80+ year old woman on his Listening Panel, who couldn't hear a watch tick, and had 'nada above 5K. One day, Bob removed the fuse from is tweeter section's highest-playing driver, maybe, lets say, 32 K on up to 100K, and the Old Woman blurted out to Bob " What Happened To The Highs ".

See Kyle, we aging "experienced listeners" have hope !! :-)

Merry Christmas.


Jeff Medwin

 

I feel a sense of renewed optimism. Thank you. nt, posted on December 8, 2016 at 12:25:59
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 .

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 9, 2016 at 09:18:06
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
 It does seem rather useless to go into PP vs. SE. If you like SE, and are OK with the significant power limitations then go right on. One, I can't live with the power limitations, and 2, don't like the way it sounds...LOL Add to this all the silliness about it needing just the right PS to work well...it clearly is a lot more variable than Class A done with PP. I'll leave the religious fanatic objections, posed by folks who like SE presentation about 'splitting' phase where they belong, on the cutting room floor...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 9, 2016 at 10:50:16
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "My guess is it would be audible and that would be the first thing I would look into determining."

Hi Dave, your philosophy seems very reasonable and open-minded. But I am still curious; I cannot think of any particular reason why one might expect that a 100-fold snipped-up interconnect lead that has been resoldered together would be likely to behave audibly differently from an unbroken lead, provided it is feeding into a high-impedance following stage.

Can you give any pointers to what sort of effects you have in mind that might give rise to sonic differences? I can see how it might offend the eye, but why the ear?

Chris

 

It's the speaker!, posted on December 9, 2016 at 12:31:44
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I totally agree with you as regards the importance of a good HF response, even for those of us with old ears, but in the end, the speaker has to be able to reproduce those frequencies, not just the amplifier. Albeit, the amp has to be able to drive the speaker, of course. I am only saying that there are many discussions here, some led by yourself, that seem to pivot on the amplifier as the be all and end all.

 

RE: It's the speaker!, posted on December 9, 2016 at 12:46:39
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The Fulton Premiere speaker, depending upon year and model number, had a frequency response of 12HZ to 100 KHz, and it was likely one of the widest bandwidth speakers ever engineered.

The saying " amps are the weakest link ", is not originally mine, but was that of Robert W. Fulton, to me, in many conversations. Just as was " an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience ". In both cases, IMHO, RWF was right on.

Jeff

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 9, 2016 at 13:40:04
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I think it would be worse into a low impedance stage. A 100 soldered connection wire will probably have measurable higher resistance than a single wire the same length. A low input impedance will cause more voltage drop.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 9, 2016 at 13:57:17
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "I think it would be worse into a low impedance stage. A 100 soldered connection wire will probably have measurable higher resistance than a single wire the same length. A low input impedance will cause more voltage drop."

Agreed. But feeding into a high impedance, say 100K, it could be no more than about a 1 part in 10^5 effect, I suppose, at most. And even then, it could, I should have thought, be compensated, if need be, by a slight turn of the volume control. But what actual degradation of the sonic quality might occur? I can't think of anything that would be anywhere near being audible.

Chris

 

RE: It's the speaker!, posted on December 9, 2016 at 14:03:48
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 Right on jeffery!! thats why I am building gm70 to power my large fultons :)

 

RE: Short Lead lengths RULE the Day, for SET amp's Rk bypass path , posted on December 10, 2016 at 18:52:05
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 This copper waterpipe grounding system is an interesting idea.

I suspect it might be less susceptible to unwanted length-dependent tuning effects-- over wire, unless you do what I do and use heavy gauge wire, keep it short, and when you can't do that, don't be afraid to provide equal-length multiple paths-- if necessary.

EQUAL LENGTHS is the big deal here.

One thing that comes to mind when using the pipe:
don't build it out of soldered-on parts like plumbing.

Instead, make the whole thing from ONE PIECE of pipe.
Copper tubing can be used, so you can bend it where you please.

Totally pure copper will probably not be a big necessary factor here
because the hollow-center should at least partially compensate--
the hollow-center is a good idea for sure.

--Dennis--

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 10, 2016 at 19:16:35
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 Grounding systems are the other half of all of the audio circuits in the amp.

One can do two things:

(1) try to provide a ground with ZERO resistance. While this is impossible to do, the closer you come to this, the less
effects ground wire quality and bandwidth-- will have.

(2) Realize that no grounding system is perfect, and will not
actually have zero resistance, so you provide top-quality wiring for grounding also.

The sonic result is very gratifying....

Copper is best used as solid unless it is silver or tin-plated because copper corrodes and makes copper oxides, which are actually poorly-connected partial diodes-- which smear music. You don't want these "new" extra parts rubbing against each other! They are a distortion-generator.

Silver-plated copper in multistrand can deliver truly outstanding results
because as you noted, silver corrosion doesn't form a distortion generator-- instead it goes on conducting very well.

Silver plating over copper can exhibit distortions from the two
dissimilar metals, but if the wire maker is very good, this isn't a factor, as bonding can be excellent. It can also be bad-- it depends on the wiremaker.

Pure silver in solid form has a slight H.F. lift- it isn't necessarily neutral. Adding somewhere between 1.5-to-3% gold into the hot-melt furnace
can effectively allow the gold atoms to fill-in spaces between the silver
atoms, making the wire a superior conductor even though gold is a lesser
conductor than silver. The finished wire is superior to either, and VERY linear.

This kind of wire absolutely outperforms everything out there-- in multistrand, it is at its very best.

Really good wiremakers exist today-- we're all very fortunate that
some people forged ahead and designed expensive, boutique wires for audio.

Some of them developed the best wire technology that ever existed. Today,
it's available to all of us. It's a large sonic advancement.

--Dennis--

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 10, 2016 at 19:58:19
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 I had an interesting front-end experience lately.

Just take this for what it's worth!:

I decided I wanted to do another audio show, but wanted to
this time, play vinyl. Since the forest fire out here wiped everything
out including all vinyl and associated gear, I was starting over.

AND-- I was short on dough, but wanted world class sound-- .

What to do! First, I had been collecting vinyl at thrift stores and
antique parlors. Got some great music-- even some LP's that were both
great music and in playable condition! I have been collecting vinyl.

I had to clean it up- so I got some record-wash solutions and pads from MO-Fi-- I could afford those and scrubbed the records clean using these tools, and clean, filtered water from my new well.

I didn't have time to build a great phono stage, so I went with a well-designed kit, and modified it as it was assembled. Better wire, better parts, and some parts re-locations.....

I needed a good Turntable, but wasn't into acting like a rich fool--, so
I bought Pioneer's reworked modern version of the old Technics Direct Drive. I knew I HAD to have Direct-Drive-- I preferred digital to my VPI setups because, compared to Hi-Res digital, they sounded nice, polite, and no fun at all.

I was playing with the Pioneer when The Vinyl Junkie came over. He has mega-bucks in his system, and likes it. He said only one thing about the stock Pioneer TT: "it sure plays right up-front!"

Ah, Hah! My sentiments exactly. The thing can ROCK!

So, I decided to modify it until I liked it. It had a "soup-can" slight coloration, so I sent the tonearm to SME for a tonearm wiring re-fit. I also scored an SME headshell that was out of its box (cheaper!), and I got a nice set of SilverSonic headshell wires for it. I got gold-plated litz in the tonearm.

I then set up the tonearm's bearings, and set up with a new Clearaudio V-2 Maestro cartridge, and I found an old granite slab which had been part of an old waterwheel powerplant's switchboard.. It fit right under the TT plinth, and gave it a solid platform.

Although this was a budget TT setup-- it really sounds very, very good!

Anyone can do this, and it's a great-sounding front-end that will bring
your music to life.

--Dennis--

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 11, 2016 at 05:47:10
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Interesting. I figure, if you had a great amp, those other things would not be that important.

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 11, 2016 at 18:54:58
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 The better the amp, the more obvious any other defects.....

Anyhow, good to see you're still here and still at it!

-Dennis--

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 13, 2016 at 05:45:04
dave slagle
Manufacturer

Posts: 5430
Location: NYC
Joined: April 27, 2001
 hey... was away from the weekend.

I cannot give a technical explanation but I think there are plenty of anecdotal reports. How much merit you give to those reports is another topic and we quickly get trapped between the all wire sounds the same of iy has the same L C and R.

I can give one anecdotal story about a "wire test" that I had full control over. A number of years ago I took two pair of identically wound SUT's to RMAF one pair wound with silver and the other pair wound with copper. The inductance of the two pair were identical as was the HF behavior out to 100Khz.. the first resonant node of the two may have been a few khz apart 150Khz vs. 155Khz but aside from the posiiton of that peak, the waveforms were identical. Due to the lower resistivity of silver, that unit did have slightly lower DCR and that was the only measuable difference.

We did the swap a number of times with various groups of people and nearly everyone voiced a difference. The preference for one or the other remained pretty consistent from one person to the next and it was split maybe 70-30 in favor of the silver. I was actually called a liar by one person because he insisted that I had the copper and silver mixed up and the thing that stuck with me was how clear the differences were independent of who liked what.

Now taking this little anecdotal and trying to pull something from it gets ugly since many people insist that the AB swaps were not controlled and the data not collected in an acceptable manner. Others simply look at the obvious difference in DCR and formulate their story as to why. I personally think the results were consistent and repeatable enough to stand and completely discount the possibility of the DCR difference (or transformer behavior at 150Khz) being the cause. So all I can take form it is a firm belief that silver sounds different than copper and I have no idea why.

dave

 

RE: stranded wire????, posted on December 13, 2016 at 11:34:53
Mahatma Kane Jeeves
Audiophile

Posts: 428
Location: Austin, TX
Joined: May 11, 2004
 Dave, re stranded wire, remember that, unless there's something pathological, the strands are equipotential, so the thing about "interstrand diodes" is not really significant.

 

...and!, posted on December 15, 2016 at 05:10:13
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
 Fulton's 'locker' amp was a rather mundane AB1 rig, right down to its global dose of NFB.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: ...and!, posted on December 15, 2016 at 09:19:34
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 Fulton: If it didn't play music I believe he would have never used this mundane lame amplifier like you say LOL

and you knew Robert how?

more interestingly, what would be your ideal amplifier? comparing to this lame ab1 amp Fulton used??.


Lawrence

 

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