Tube DIY Asylum

Do It Yourself (DIY) paradise for tube and SET project builders.

Return to Tube DIY Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS

71.50.25.20
Posted on August 28, 2016 at 17:32:49
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005









Modding the Dynami Cap 4.0 E's usual stock lead - Wonder Wire 19 AWG - to TWO 12 AWG lead outs, made a really NEAT audible difference on my ALTEC VOTT 515B woofers !! On the 802D tweeters' 4.0 uF film caps, I used doubled up 14 AWG as lead outs, same technique.

In my Type 45 SET amp rebuild, for a 12AX7 input stage drawing 0.6 mA. , I found the DynamiCap 4.0 E was NOT cutting it with TWO 14 AWG leads, one inch long, so, I will go to tripled-up 14 AWG or doubled-up 12 AWG on the 12AX7 - and LISTEN next to those two possibilities.

Guys - in both positions, the clip lead, added to the existing doubled-up 14 AWG lead outs, " told me " easily, MORE wire was needed to get the best sound !! Very helpful, dem-there high tech clip leads, when designing by EAR !!!!

Mr. Robert W. Fulton was SO right... " an inch of bad wire can RUIN the musical experience ".

Jeff Medwin

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 07:18:13
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 If you've done that without destroying the capacitor, you must have some skill with a soldering iron. Like I wrote earlier, Dynamicaps, like their Infinicap forebears, are very fragile where the lead joins the body of the capacitor. I know this from sad experience especially with Infinicaps. Messing with the joint is a path down which I would not follow, even if I believed even remotely that it would do some audible good.

I think by now you can stop quoting that line from Robert Fulton. We know.

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 08:53:15
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 I understand that you do a lot of experimenting with things but in all honesty how can there be any audible difference in changing a small piece of lead wire when there is still the weak link(according to you) going into the cap? I don't hear what you hear but in all honesty neither will most.

People that have FIOS don't have optical going into their modem. Fiber Optics only goes to the box wherever the box is mounted. There is still coax going from the box to the modem or TV. So that kills whatever fiber optics does. Maybe not entirely but to some degree.

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 10:07:11
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I am soldered RIGHT up to the sides of the DynamiCap, so the stock wire is not critical, the distance is no more than 1/32nd an inch.

ANYONE would hear it !!


Jeff

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 10:33:07
mcgjohn@yahoo.com
Industry Professional

Posts: 501
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 5, 2008
 drlowmu is correct. The cap leads make a huge difference, would 50% of what the film and foil types do. Did this experiment several years ago with film and foil Solen caps. Was so shocked at the difference those short leads provided, I had to repeat the test twice, then do a blind listening test with a few friends, to make sure I was not off my rocker. Blind testing showed the experimental leads were better.

Having said that, it is a bit of a PITA to solder the new leads on and not wreck the cap.

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 11:08:03
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 So some how the manufacturers of these caps never noticed that the leads they use make them sound worse, even during the R&D stages of producing them? I find that pretty hard to believe.

 

There is a difference, posted on August 29, 2016 at 11:34:55
elblanco
Audiophile

Posts: 3486
Joined: August 20, 2004
 Heat from soldering gun causes a parameter change, in this case capacitance, which causes audible difference.

 

No audio manufacturer has ever done such a thing, posted on August 29, 2016 at 12:30:28
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 We would have to believe companies in the high end audio business don't care how their equipment sounds, else they wouldn't overlook such a massively important and extraordinarily cheap improvement.

Seriously, this nonsense gets really tiresome after a while. Give it a rest, eh?



 

RE: No audio manufacturer has ever done such a thing, posted on August 29, 2016 at 15:59:14
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 Jeff, do you never pause to wonder about the fact that seemingly every single thing you ever try modding leads to some dramatic change, usually for the better? You replace the leads on a transformer, and it sounds better; you replace the leads on a capacitor, and it sounds better; you replace one resistor by two in parallel (with resistances matched to N decimal places) and it sounds better; you replace one capacitor by umpteen in parallel and it sounds better; you reverse the direction of a capacitor and it sounds better; and so the list goes on, and on, and on...

And meanwhile, all the manufacturers and designers over all these years have been doing everything wrong, using the wrong wire, the wrong this, and the wrong that. In all the applications that are so much more demanding than home stereos - like high-frequency equipment, high-current equipment, precision scientific measuring apparatus, and so on - everyone else has apparently been doing so much that is wrong, and failing to discover the huge improvements that would result from some of your amazing modifications.

it is just not plausible or believable that such important breakthroughs in electrical engineering principles as you are allegedly achieving would be discovered by playing around with a dinky little stereo system in a home living room.

Chris


 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 29, 2016 at 21:34:29
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Jeff
I get it on the wire and the films on the woofers but use these on the 802 compression drivers..I have Dynamic caps as well but they don't touch these on the mids and highs.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: No audio manufacturer has ever done such a thing, posted on August 30, 2016 at 05:58:06
Alpha Al
Industry Professional

Posts: 2958
Location: N. Carolina
Joined: February 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 3, 2015
 Auricaps had leads made of finely stranded OFC. I think they understood the difference.

They were also marked for directionality. One lead was red, the other black. I forget which lead was which.

 

The Black lead was the input for...., posted on August 30, 2016 at 07:36:10
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4574
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 audio signals and the Red was for the output for audio signals. In bypassing for power supplies it's the normal way, Red for + and Black for -.

The Auricaps have go up on price but the new XO are great.

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:02:34
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I will try them. Cheap enough. Usually, I find what I do for the woofer needs to be done likewise for the tweeter, on ALTEC VOTTS, with my wiring and amps, so different cap types may not cut it - will see and hear !!

Specific Question Please,

Do you have direct experience with the 4.0 "E" Dynami Cap, that VALUE ??

Thanks Mikey.

Jeff

 

RE: There is a difference, posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:06:37
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I have a Sencore LCR meter and I check those parameters, and leakage before and after adding leads, to each 4 .0 uF cap. Never " lost " one, or saw a shift.

Jeff

 

Weller Soldering GUN, not iron., posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:16:30
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 TRY THIS : I use a Weller ( old ) D-250 Soldering GUN, and build up a head of " steam " or actually, heat in the tip, and the Wonder Solder melts beautifully.

With such a powerful heat source, I am only on the joint for a matter of SECONDS. Prior to re-installation, after modding each cap, I check the finished cap on my Sencore LCR instrument.

Weller now-a-days makes a D-550 and D-650 GUN, as I recall. Useful as all get out, in my point-to-point tube amp and crossover building.

Jeff

 

Not TRUE - at all !!!, posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:30:50
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Moore Franklin and Associates, in their lovely State of the Art phono, the MFA Luminescense preamp, was likely the first manufacturer to use large paralleled resistors in key places. They likely tried single ones, later, and went back to doubles because it SOUNDED better to them.

I have two friends, who are high-level audio builders, who use doubled-up and matched Rs in key spots, both are respectable individuals for sure !!

None of these improvements are " huge ", but they are all audible, and added together, make for a better sounding DIY result.

Yes, it is possible, and probable, that ALL I post will be a small but positive difference, for the better. And certainly YES, it is possible, highly PROBABLE, that the average trained E.E. will miss the boat entirely, due to their rigid, often non-imaginative, training !! I can lead a horse to water, but I can['t make it drink. YOU are a good example.

FYI, I know of one audio manufacturer who uses doubled up 12 AWG leads on power transformers.

Have fun. Cheers.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on August 30, 2016 at 09:58:49
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Lew,

See my recent post on HOW to mod the large 4.0 "E" .

From your posted words, you don't know yet at all !!

"Messing with the joint is a path down which I would not follow, even if I believed even remotely that it would do some audible good."

Jeff

 

RE: Not TRUE - at all !!!, posted on August 30, 2016 at 11:41:05
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 I wasn't speaking of the "high-end audiophile" market, which is significantly influenced by fads, fashions and myths. I was speaking of the market for serious test equipment, scientific instruments, cutting-edge technology and so on. Applications where getting the best possible performance really matters, where the conditions are much more technically demanding than in home stereo systems, and where true experts and specialists are engaged on research and development in order to meet the performance goals.

I somehow doubt that they are modifying leads on transformers, capacitors, etc. Personally, I would put more trust in these professional designers than in boutique manufacturers of overpriced audiophile gear.

Chris

 

I am happy for you, but I don't much care for Dynamicaps,..., posted on August 30, 2016 at 13:49:07
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 compared to some other types. I notice that you used stranded wire as your new lead wires. I know that you "believe in" using a lot of wire, in terms of current carrying capacity, but have you compared stranded to solid core, better yet, multiple strands of individually insulated solid core wire? When and where current is important, I tend to favor the latter solution vs conventional stranded wire.

 

RE: Not TRUE - at all !!!, posted on August 30, 2016 at 14:05:41
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "I would put more trust in these professional designers than in boutique manufacturers of overpriced audiophile gear."

I absolutely agree, but have you seen even the audiophile manufacturers modify lead-out wires like this?




 

RE: Not TRUE - at all !!!, posted on August 30, 2016 at 16:11:14
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "I absolutely agree, but have you seen even the audiophile manufacturers modify lead-out wires like this?"

No, you are right. I had inadvertently left out part of the sentence I was intending to construct, because I was trying to juggle writing my response and getting on with some work at the same time. I had intended to to say something more along the lines of

"I would put more trust in these professional designers than in enthusiastic amateurs with misguided ideas about how electronic circuits function, or in boutique manufacturers of overpriced audiophile gear."

Chris

 

Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 30, 2016 at 20:33:22
FenderLover
 Wonder if multiple parallel routes can cause any significant problems to the circuitry?

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 05:27:04
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Wonder if multiple parallel routes can cause any significant problems to the circuitry?"

Probably not. The frequencies involved are so low in audio. I would view it as harmless, but mostly pointless.

Chris

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 09:44:49
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Chris,

You ( and T.K ) are just hypothesizing. You have no experience with what I report on. I actually DO THINGS and LISTEN.

You are pretty biased in your view. I report yo others up here from direct experience, not a theoretical bias.

The proof of the Pudding - IS in the EATING.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 12:11:06
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "You ( and T.K ) are just hypothesizing. You have no experience with what I report on. I actually DO THINGS and LISTEN.

You are pretty biased in your view. I report yo others up here from direct experience, not a theoretical bias."

Actually no. I have plenty of direct experience from having been playing with electronics and constructing things for probably more than 50 years. I also have a fair background of understanding of the underlying theory.

My own experience has been that, for example, a capacitor is really just a capacitor (unless there is something grossly wrong with it). I have tried listening for some of the effects that people such as yourself claim, and I simply don't hear the differences. If I do hear differences when I change something, I tend to find it correlates pretty well with changes I can measure, and with clear electrical-engineering reasons for why the change should be audible.

So when I see people talking of subtle changes that are completely inaudible to my ears, I have to conclude either that my hearing is amazingly deficient, or else that the effects that are being claimed are perhaps more in the imagination than real. When I am told that the effects are too subtle to be measurable by any test apparatus, the alarm bells begin to ring in my mind and I start to favour the explanation that the alleged effect may be imagined.

When I am told that the effects are so subtle that they go away if one tries to verify them by double-blind testing, the alarm bells ring more strongly.

I am also very well aware of the susceptibility of the human mind to be deceived by optical illusions, and, I'm sure, aural illusions too.

One can read on the Tweakers' Forum of all sorts of alleged improvements that are brought about by sprinkling crystals, or turning on flashing LEDs, or using coloured pens on CDs, or whatever else the latest fad might me. Surely those kinds of postings ought to cause the alarm bells to ring in any rational person's mind. But they do also serve to show that apparently sincere people can seemingly genuinely believe that non-existent effects are actually audible.

I do have direct experience of my own and it disagrees considerably with with what some other people report. I try to keep an open mind, and evaluate claims for plausibility both by considering the theory behind them and, sometimes, by performing my own listening experiments and measurements. Everything that I have experienced myself leads me to conclude that the established principles of electrical engineering are reliable and provide the best guide as to how to design and build electronic equipment. If there were ever to be surprises and new things to be uncovered, they would surely be in rather extreme situations like very high frequencies, very high currents or very high voltages. By contrast, the comparatively low frequencies, low currents and low voltages of a home stereo system are so much less extreme that there doesn't seem to be room for many of the alleged subtle effects, which could be much more convincingly explained by foibles of the human brain, and expectation bias.

Chris

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 12:33:36
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 764
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Chris

Not being a smart ass here but you can not hear the differences in caps? Forget the money and marketing crap. The differences are sometimes quite large. What type of front end are you using C.D. or Phono? One more question can you hear the difference with say DHT's vs IDHT's.

I realize the numbers vs what it sound like debate will never end
But not being able to hear cap differences is not normally a stand even the number guys take.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

Foibles of the human brain, posted on August 31, 2016 at 12:53:13
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "...the alleged subtle effects, which could be much more convincingly explained by foibles of the human brain, and expectation bias."

One such foible is believing one can experience an objective audition with no reference unit after spending an hour or more replacing parts. When pigs fly.



 

Some things to consider!, posted on August 31, 2016 at 12:54:19
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Can changing out a cap change the sound? Yes of course it can. But lets look at the context here.

Was the value changed? And it's not as simple as replacing a 2.2uf electrolytic with a 2.2uf film. What about the ESR? what about the tolerance? Inductance?

Then one must consider the circuit. What are the impedance's at the nodes where the cap connects? I take out a generic film cap and replace it with a giant audiophile cap 20x the physical size. What about all the extra inductance from the lead length as well as the larger amount of foil?

These phenomenon will no doubt change the sound. but is it a change for the better specification wise? Meaning does it sound better to the listener just because it now sounds different and it's a new experience?

All this stuff can be measured electronically. Quite easily in fact and since the turn of the century, very accurately even with consumer grade measurement products.

I am certainly not saying any commercial product is engineering for the highest quality possible. However the popular audiophile practice of just slapping in boutique parts totally ignoring proper circuit analysis and pre/post measurements is simply hacking.

People who have careers in electronics are indeed highly trained and know better. That's why you have a computer to read this forum. That's why we have 4K UHDTV. That's why you have a cell phone. Where did all this technology come from if we can't according to some, even design a 1930s technology amplifier properly?

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 13:03:08
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Not being a smart ass here but you can not hear the differences in caps? Forget the money and marketing crap. The differences are sometimes quite large."

Well, maybe this is covered by my parenthetical qualification "unless it (the capacitor) is grossly deficient." To me, a capacitor is something that passes AC and blocks DC. I would think that a capacitor is "fit for purpose" if it passes the AC signal over the entire audio spectrum with a negligible AC signal developed across the capacitor. This is really just a truism, I suppose, since the extent to which a capacitor could adversely influence the audio output is determined by the extent to which it develops an AC signal across it. i.e., the extent to which it fails to be a sufficiently good conductor to AC.

So if one capacitor produced an audibly different result in contrast to another capacitor, then this would have to be because one of them had a different AC voltage drop across it, in comparison to the other. (Again, more or less a truism.) I guess I would classify a coupling capacitor that had a significant AC voltage drop at some frequencies as being "grossly deficient," and not fit for the purpose it was supposed to be serving.

I can well believe that some people's ears are better than other's at hearing fine distinctions of these kinds. But ultimately, any audible difference must have a rational explanation in terms of the transfer characteristics of the component in question. When I said that to me "a capacitor is just a capacitor," I guess I really meant that unless it was measurably deficient I would not hear a difference between it and another one.

Added: I agree with gusser's remarks too. Indeed, there could be other issues, to do with inductance, stray capacitance to ground, ESR, etc. The key point is that we live in a rational world where effects have rational explanations, and if capacitor A sounds different from capacitor B, it is because of some measurable differences.

Chris

 

RE: Foibles of the human brain, posted on August 31, 2016 at 13:59:14
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "One such foible is believing one can experience an objective audition with no reference unit after spending an hour or more replacing parts. When pigs fly."

Agreed. One would surely at least need to have the ability to switch back and forth at will between the two possible set-ups. It is hard to see how one could trust one's memory of how the other one sounded some considerable time previously.

Chris

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on August 31, 2016 at 18:24:16
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Surely though you can hear the differences between some of the different types of caps made with different materials? Teflon vs electrolytic vs film and so on? Having done the final voicing of quite a few amps by rolling coupling caps, I have learned that the types of materials used do make a difference.

 

Listening tests, posted on August 31, 2016 at 20:20:40
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "Surely though you can hear the differences between some of the different types of caps made with different materials?"

I personally believe there's a legitimate sonic difference in roughly one out of 1,000 of the reports of same. Subjective listening tests must be scientifically performed to create a valid statistic. Most people don't bother. They simply report what they thought they heard following a meaningless audition with no real reference.





 

That was an improvement, posted on September 1, 2016 at 04:34:02
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
 My inability to speak to the audiophile in terms they 'understand' was one of the reasons I was able to convince myself that attempting to do this for profit of any sort was a bad idea...LOL

I suppose if I got a Ph.D in marketing it would have been easy.

It starts with me taking exception to the traditional audiofool notion that engineering is unimaginative, and that 'thinking outside the box' is the *ONLY* way forward, taken after throwing out all the basic, first principles.

The 'discussions' taken on which way a wire sounds best, and how there is always something wrong with the experimental set up if Glorious results are not obtained is laughable. Ooops, I guess I needed 2.3333333 runs of some special wire in parallel, not 3 and certainly not 2 leaves me laughing my head off sometimes...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 06:50:13
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Surely though you can hear the differences between some of the different types of caps made with different materials? Teflon vs electrolytic vs film and so on? Having done the final voicing of quite a few amps by rolling coupling caps, I have learned that the types of materials used do make a difference."

My general viewpoint is that there are many fascinating phenomena in the world, and I love to play around experimenting with ones that capture my attention. To be honest, listening for the alleged sonic differences between one capacitor type and another has never made it very high up my list of things I want to spend a lot of time on. In part, this is because the question simply isn't that important to me. Also, in part it is for reasons related to what TK has just been saying; the probability that any given assertion that capacitor X is audibly different (better?) than capacitor Y is actually a correct assertion seems to be rather small.

Any time I hear a claim of some phenomenon such as an audible difference between X and Y, I would generally first subject it to a kind of "plausibility test," based on general principles, estimates of the likely magnitude of any physical effect that might conceivably be able to account for the alleged phenomenon, and so on. I do this because my experience leads me to believe that the physical world operates in a rational way, according to physical principles which, at least for everyday purposes, are largely understood. It is necessary to apply some sort of a filter to weed out the wheat from the chaff, and to decide whether or not it might be worth investigating some claim in greater detail.

Thus, for example, most of the alleged effects claimed on the Tweakers' Forum would never make it anywhere onto my list of things worth spending time investigating; most of them are so obviously nonsensical claims with no conceivable physical basis, and the alleged phenomena exist only in the vivid imaginations of people who have deluded themselves into believing they hear things that are simply not there.

When it comes to capacitors, perhaps there are genuine physical reasons why there could be tiny but audible differences between two capacitors that naively might have been expected to sound the same. Obviously in an application like an RIAA network, where the capacitor is intended to drop a significant AC voltage - different at different frequencies - across its terminals, there is more room for such things as the different dielectric properties of different materials to manifest themselves audibly. In the case of a coupling capacitor, where ideally it would drop only a negligible AC voltage across the whole audio spectrum, it is harder to see why different capacitor types would make much difference (unless one of them was "grossly deficient" in some way). Conducting experiments to test whether I can hear such alleged differences is not something that really makes it onto my list of things I would spend much time investigating. I would be quite interested to read any accounts of any listening tests where such alleged differences are genuinely verified, and it would be interesting also to see how these correlated with measurements. On the other hand, anecdotal accounts, along the lines of "I changed the capacitors in my amplifier from type X to type Y, and now I like the sound more" really don't do much to capture my interest or attention.

Chris

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on September 1, 2016 at 09:00:10
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Believe. DynamiCap also makes a line for SPEAKERS, which have heavier lead outs Vinnie !!

Plus the URL below.

Jeff Medwin

 

Michael Samra, posted on September 1, 2016 at 09:23:28
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Have you ever experimented with the 4.0 uF "E" DynamiCap, specifically??


Jeff

 

Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 09:52:53
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Vinnie,

Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen, or hears "no differences", sorta like a portrait artist who is color blind ??

They make assumptions, like audio is low bandwidth, and that is is sinusoidal, and that the human ear and brain are flawed test instruments. That is pure rubbish !!

My first audio Mentor, Mr. Fulton, used to use a 2 GIG - hertz TEK scope to view audio. But in the end, he used his ear, he was a trumpet player and Choir Director.


Jeff

 

Good points!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 10:20:49
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 It's always about coupling and power supply capacitors in tube circuits.

You never read about DIYers rolling RIAA EQ caps or upgrading the caps in their FM tuner RF/IF circuits.

Why? Surely if a power supply caps or coupling cap can make such dramatic sonic improvements why not caps in other circuits where the audio signal travels. And yes the tuner RF/IF signal must contain all the audio information to be reproduced so lets not hear claims that RF is different and not affected by bad capacitors!

How about this: I am going to swap out ALL the 10% "crap" resistors in my vintage tuner for 1% metal films. Do you think it will sound better? LOL

Oh and one more thing. I don't see many DIY posts about upgrading the feedback compensation caps in a DC coupled transistor power amplifier. Wonder why? Those that have tried it without detailed circuit analysis end up with an amp full of silicon slag!

Yup the most important capacitors in electronics are tube amp power grid coupling capacitors and power supply filter caps. All other capacitors used in electronics are non critical and therefore there is no upgrade market to tap!

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 12:38:52
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Well if something you can hear isn't important to you, then you ought to just turn the volume down on your system and watch your instruments to your hearts content.
Seriously though, that is the whole point of what we do is the sound that we hear. If you had said "I have listened to many different types of caps under the same conditions and never heard a difference" that would be one thing, but you are saying you don't care what it sounds like as long as it measures ok. Can't follow the logic there.

 

RE: Listening tests, posted on September 1, 2016 at 12:46:25
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 If you have a setup where you can switch coupling caps on a bread board in a few seconds, and everything else is the same and you use the same source and it sounds different, then by golly the only thing that could have effected it is the cap. I do that every single time I finish out an amp on a bread board and I can certainly hear differences between them, though some more than others. Why do you think Samra is so hot on russkie caps in certain applications? Because they sound better that's why, and he has probably had more experience than anyone else here in listening to the difference parts can make.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 12:51:16
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Who knows all the different things that can effect the sound of a cap, there may be dozens. The important thing is that some do sound different and some sound better than others in a given application, and no instrument is a sensitive as the human ear for finding those differences.

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 12:56:03
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "...but you are saying you don't care what it sounds like as long as it measures ok. Can't follow the logic there."

That is not what I said. I was saying that I have not personally been able to notice the difference in sound between one capacitor and another (unless one of them has something obviously wrong with it). Maybe this is because my hearing is deficient; I really don't know. All I know is that my own listening experiences do not lead me to believe that it is a particularly worthwhile issue for me to expend my time and effort on.

Chris

 

Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:11:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I mean with test equipment?

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:12:33
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Well that is not what it appeared to me that you were saying, but if it is I can not argue with that, but I am quite sure others can and do hear a difference between some caps.

 

RE: Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:14:37
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Yes, with my ears, the final word in what I want an amp to sound like. If it measures good on them, it is good.

 

RE: Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:20:20
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I take it you don't have a career in any field of electronics?

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:25:09
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "They make assumptions, like audio is low bandwidth, and that is is sinusoidal, and that the human ear and brain are flawed test instruments. That is pure rubbish !!"

Compared to the things like microwave amplifiers, audio amplifiers do indeed operate at the low frequency end of the spectrum.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "they" make the assumption that audio is sinusoidal. Do you mean a single frequency sinusoid? I don't think anyone assumes that. If you mean multiple frequencies of sinusoids, then it is simply a mathematical fact that *any* waveform can be decomposed into a sum, or integral, over sinusoidal waves (Fourier analysis).

No device is perfect, whether it be ears, brains, spectrum analyzers or whatever. Of course ears and brains are in that sense flawed, just like anything else.

Chris

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:31:46
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 But it seems only simple amplifier hobbyists, like tube circuits and chips like LM3886 where all the engineering is done for you, where capacitors seem to have a "sound".

Outside of these circles there is absolutely no serious thought or discussion on this subject except where a cap may be defective or improperly specified for the circuit - as Chris explained.

In no formal field of electronics is this black magic given any consideration.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:32:29
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002





Many things influence what we "think" we hear.

We can't just simply "trust our ears".

Even a trained listener has to be very careful not to get fooled.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:36:00
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 No, and a professional carpenter doesn't have a career in architecture, but he can still tell when something is wrong just by looking at it. Same idea.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:39:56
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 "and no instrument is a sensitive as the human ear for finding those differences."

And what reference are you citing to back that statement up? How many db down is the average human ear in sensitivity. What medical reference have you researched to get a figure?

Then where are we at technology wise with test equipment. What is the noise floor of modern gear? How about older gear we can all afford on Ebay?

How do the numbers for the ear and selected test gear stack up?

You're statement quoted above has absolutely nothing to back it up as it stands.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:40:15
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Not quite the same thing as there is a battle between our eyes and ears in that example. If you are listening in a quiet room with no distractions you are much more likely to be able to trust your ears.

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:41:52
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 We are talking about the audio applications are we not? We are not going outside those circles.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:44:16
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Except that the bottom line is if it sounds good it is good, or none of us need to bother with any of this anymore. If I like what I am hearing that is the whole point of diy audio.

 

Poor analogy, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:48:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Your professional carpenter probably just uses an over-sized beam to carry a load - as speced out in some industry guide book prepared by an ENGINEER.

Now can that carpenter design an ultra light laminated beam with the same load capacity of that 12x6 timber?

Not without formal engineering training he can't.

Can you tell me ON PAPER the DC output voltage of an integrator circuit based on a complex input waveform? - Try to do that be ear!

This engineer bashing here is ridiculous!

 

RE: Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:49:39
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I don't think most people would pick the amplifier that is doing the best job as the amplifier that "sounds" the best to them.

I think this is mainly do to ignorance WRT how real instruments sound.

I think most people want a "happy, happy sound machine" rather than a reproduction system.

Distortion sounds good to most people.

So all bets are off.

It's a free for all with each individual having his/her own "tastes".

I stopped measuring thing years ago. I just build according to theory as best as I know how and call it good.

The cool thing is, whenever I make a change that is an improvement according to theory it sounds better to me (according to my trained ear).

Am I fooling myself? Could be.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:51:41
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Not quite the same thing as there is a battle between our eyes and ears in that example. If you are listening in a quiet room with no distractions you are much more likely to be able to trust your ears."

Well, there is maybe still the "distraction" of having invested time and money in acquiring and installing some special boutique component, with the hope and expectation that it will "improve the sound."

Chris

 

Audio Applications?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:54:25
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Recording studios
Radio Stations
Television Broadcast and production (my industry)
Motion Pictures (also my industry)
Medical
Sonar systems
Other Scientific Research
Acoustics (this is a big one)

No, audio engineering encompasses much more than home HiFi.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:55:09
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Vinnie, some people like 1970's Japanese SS amplifiers and Bose speakers.

"Liking" the sound of an amplifier proves nothing more than 'you like the sound of that amplifier'.

It doesn't mean that that amplifier is doing a good job of properly reproducing the signal.

Are you an expert on how instruments really sound?

Even experts can get fooled very easily unless they are very careful.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Poor analogy, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:56:41
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Who is bashing engineers? I am a registered Civil Engineer and have been for 40 years. I am just saying that measurements don't always tell the whole story. If they did all of us would be using solid state gear and not tubes. So, tell me what measurements tell you why tubes sound better? And please don't say the difference in distortion because it is more than just that.

 

RE: Have you measured anything?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 13:57:53
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.

 

Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:04:48
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 They do sound different. And if that difference is pleasing to you, then they sound better to you.

But there are well documented problems with tube amplifiers.

1) Distortion.
2) Uneven frequency response (OPT problem)
3) Noise
4) Dampning factor
5) Specification adherence over tube life
6) Power efficiency

Solid state betters tube amps in all these areas. And due to that you may not personally like the sound they produce.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:05:21
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 But that is my whole point Tre'. How many people who listen to music are experts? Damn few I'll wager. Does that mean they have to spend years getting that knowledge before they can listen to the Boston Pops? Of course not! What it means is everyone should decide what sounds good to them. Listen to as much live music as you can and as many systems as you can and decide which suits you best. Knowing the measurements of the equipment might help you weed out some of the gear, but it is a lot faster and more to the point to just listen!

 

RE: Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:06:49
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 So what in the heck are you doing on this forum if you don't think tubes sound better? Like I said, numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

RE: Audio Applications?, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:11:13
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 But this forum doesn't, does it? Read the tile, you are straying way afield in your desperate efforts to try and prove you are right.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:13:07
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Could be for some people, but not for me. I have never bought a high priced cap in my life. I get by just fine with ebay Russkies thank you, and I do hear a difference.

 

I am a registered Civil Engineer, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:13:57
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Well I am surprised then. Because you should have some fundamental understanding and appreciation for proper test and measurement procedure.

What kind of civil engineering do you do? Do you build a bridge without extensive analysis of the soil under it?

How about a storm drain? How many years of rainfall data do you analyze before submitting a design?

That's engineering! So why should electrical, that being audio in this case, be any different.

Designing an amplifier by ear may be a fun hobby but it's not the way electrical engineering is done in any branch of respectable electronics.

 

Well,, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:16:51
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Perhaps I too like the way they sound!

But at least strive to understand why. And the fact remains, it's not superior electrical performance.

 

RE: Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:18:33
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "So what in the heck are you doing on this forum if you don't think tubes sound better? Like I said, numbers don't tell the whole story."

I had not realised that one was supposed to believe that tubes have a better sound in order to participate in this forum.

What about a forum on vintage cars. Would one have to believe that vintage cars had a better performance than modern cars, in order to be entitled to belong to the forum?

I think there are all sorts of reasons why people like to play around with "vintage" things, without necessarily having to believe that they are superior. Such as nostalgia, preferring the appearance of the older product, and so on.

Personally, my own liking for tube equipment is a combination of nostalgia, simplicity of construction, liking the warm glow of the tubes on a winter evening, and a few other things like that. It had never occurred to me that I was supposed to believe that tube amplifiers had to sound better, in order to participate here.

Chris

 

RE: I am a registered Civil Engineer, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:19:46
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Once again you are ranging outside the field of discussion. We are talking about a fun hobby on this forum not a moon shot or other high tech application. And as I said, if the numbers are right but the sound is wrong, who the heck would want to listen to it?

 

RE: Well,, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:24:37
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 But what does that matter if it sounds good?

 

RE: Well,, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:26:50
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 To some it doesn't.

To some it does.

 

RE: Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:29:41
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 You are putting words in my mouth. The point is not that you are not "allowed", the point is that there are other places that would better suit your purposes, like collectors forums. And the "DIY" in the title does sort of indicate a hands on experience which I don't think most people would go through unless they liked the sound of tubes and wanted to build their own or could not afford to pay the sky high prices of custom amps.

 

RE: Well,, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:30:43
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
Sounds like a good place to stop.

 

RE: I am a registered Civil Engineer, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:42:26
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I worked as both a design and construction engineer on highways, bridges, tunnels and many other civil projects, and one of the things I remember the most was hearing the old timers say "design to the hundredth, stake to the tenth, and build to the foot." And that for a lot of it was they way it was. Plans come out with everything to the gnat's eyebrow, but by the time it is on the ground there is room for adjustment. Not true with everything, but true with more than most people realize. I think DIY audio fits in that category. There is wiggle room.

 

agreed! (nt), posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:42:27
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 .

 

RE: I am a registered Civil Engineer, posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:48:00
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Right, but in your example the true spec is down to the foot. But to get there you have to start with dimensions in the hundredths.

Just as in circuit design you also have to design for worst tolerances. So the prototype is often overbuilt.

Same in mechanical engineering.

Basic engineering practice which I would like to see a little more of on this forum, which used to be the way it was. This forum seems to have degraded into "TWEAKS-2"

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 14:57:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 You don't need to spend big money to have expectation bias.

"Experimenter's or expectation bias. The tendency for experimenters to believe, certify, and publish data that agree with their expectations for the outcome of an experiment, and to disbelieve, discard, or downgrade the corresponding weightings for data that appear to conflict with those expectations."

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 1, 2016 at 15:28:41
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "You are putting words in my mouth. The point is not that you are not "allowed", the point is that there are other places that would better suit your purposes, like collectors forums. And the "DIY" in the title does sort of indicate a hands on experience which I don't think most people would go through unless they liked the sound of tubes and wanted to build their own or could not afford to pay the sky high prices of custom amps."

Well in my case I have, in recent years, built five tube power amplifiers and a couple of tube preamps. Every tube amplifier I have ever owned has been my own DIY construction. Yes, I like the sound of the amplifiers I make, but that doesn't mean that I have any strong conviction that they must sound better than good amplifiers built using modern technology.

Chris

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 1, 2016 at 16:50:05
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 But I have no reason to want it to go either way Tre', I have a choice of which caps to use and all are relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain.

 

RE: Listening tests, posted on September 2, 2016 at 04:21:04
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
 Have played the 'listening test' game a few times. There is a lot going on, and it is remarkably easy to get fooled, even when some rather gross effects are being played with.

If I am supposed to believe that in order to see benefits of wiring type, in one particular circuit position I need to do 37 other things 'perfectly' and have just one set of speakers to show it, and one particular amplifier topology in place...and so on, I think I am OK calling BS and ignoring it.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 2, 2016 at 05:38:33
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "But I have no reason to want it to go either way Tre', I have a choice of which caps to use and all are relatively inexpensive and easy to obtain."

But you might perhaps still have a reason to want there to be *some* difference, simply because you have a belief that there should be audible differences between capacitors.

Let me again add the disclaimer: I am NOT saying that there can never be audible differences between capacitors (even though I myself have never heard any).

But expectation bias is an insidious and pervasive thing. If someone is expecting to be able hear differences between X and Y, the expectation bias may lead them to false conclusions when they try comparing X and Y.

Chris

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on September 2, 2016 at 08:59:18
rage
Audiophile

Posts: 793
Joined: December 17, 2010
 Jeff,

What about DFs preference of coiling the factory leadouts around a pencil and using silicon 2 to bond everything together?

Are there times where that would be superior to tacking on different leads?

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on September 2, 2016 at 09:19:15
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I would imagine so, since he does that. In the past, he has used two heavy runs of $$$$ Siltech ( LS-38 ?? ) off a 4 uF DynamiCap E, different caps require different implementations, depending upon where they are being used Rage.

Jeff

 

and so..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 09:31:29
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
 I wanted to play with something. No way I was going to learn enough SS craft to design my own at first. Get some sort of tube amp and start practicing. Build a linestage. Modify a circuit. It is kinda fun.

I do this with other things...it is not just tubes. Anybody have a green-lid tin of Sheridan pellets?
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 2, 2016 at 09:55:54
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Yes and you might get certain readings because you want them to be there and make a mistake in your measurements. It happens all the time in research labs. Remember the Cold Fusion fiasco? How many times have scientific facts been torn to shreds when new evidence comes to light? NUMBERS DON"T TELL THE WHOLE STORY!

 

RE: and so..., posted on September 2, 2016 at 10:04:19
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 And do you now think tubes are better, and is that why you stick around, or do you like both equally well?

 

Wrong! Tubes DO sound better!, posted on September 2, 2016 at 10:09:27
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 I've owned or auditioned more "audiophile" SS amps in the last 45 years than I can count. Phase Linear, GAS, Levinson, Yamaha, HK, Marantz, Pioneer, Dynaco, Luxman, McIntosh, etc. Only a few rose above mediocrity and are worth comparing. If those are the target, I can tell you that even an average tube amp is their equal, and a truly good tube amp has no peer. To be able to design and enjoy tube gear that costs $200-1,000, yet blows away commercial SS equipment at 10 times that price, is a major factor in favor of this technology. If that wasn't the case, I myself wouldn't be here.


 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 2, 2016 at 10:16:12
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 I have a piano, a tonewheel Hammond and a guitar in my livingroom. I'm not sure that makes me an expert, but I do know how instruments like those should sound. Nothing comes as close to reproducing their tone and nuance as vacuum tubes.

 

RE: Some things to consider!, posted on September 2, 2016 at 10:26:28
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I am quite sure that is true.

 

RE: Tubes don't sound better!, posted on September 2, 2016 at 10:58:08
geezerrocket
 Keep telling yourself solid state sounds better.

Some people think artificial sweeteners taste better than sugar, fat free tastes better than regular, and decaffeinated tastes better than real coffee - I don't happen to live in that world, but hey, to each his own.




 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 2, 2016 at 11:38:43
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Yes and you might get certain readings because you want them to be there and make a mistake in your measurements. It happens all the time in research labs."

I think this is just clutching at straws and making rather wild and unsubstantiated generalisations.

Chris

 

Cold Fusion - good analogy., posted on September 2, 2016 at 11:48:40
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 The cold fusion fiasco is more like the audiophool theories than a scientific example.

Those people came out with a statement without any research data to back it up. IIRC, they claimed patent issues as an excuse for not disclosing the data.

In the end it was peer review by accredited scientists that exposed the fraud.

Sounds like the capacitor debate to me. Let's just say different caps of identical specifications sound different. We won't allow any technical measurments because they are wrong. We will not allow any DBT as that upsets the mood of the listener.

Yup, cold fusion round 2.

 

RE: Cold Fusion - good analogy., posted on September 2, 2016 at 14:08:10
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Way to twist what I said all out of context. Do you seriously think they came up with all that work without looking at a lot of instruments that they thought were telling them they had found it? My point is it takes more than just instruments. I think the same thing could happen in any field when instruments are taken as the final solution and the other senses are not given there due.

 

RE: Is an audio design E.E. who doesn't listen....., posted on September 2, 2016 at 14:09:10
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Sorry, but that is exactly what you have been doing all along.

 

What work?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 14:46:55
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 That group was exposed as a bunch of frauds looking for venture capital money.

They had nothing to show.

 

RE: What work?, posted on September 2, 2016 at 15:09:25
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I do not remember having heard that it was a fraud, only that no one else was able to make it work. If it truly was, then I indeed chose the wrong example. I think you understood my point anyway, people can think they are getting good data from instruments only to find out later it was bogus.

 

RE: Modifying Film Cap Lead OUTS, posted on September 5, 2016 at 22:15:50
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 How you approach this depends on the immediate need...

Specifically, what does the circuit that the cap is being used in-- require in cap performance?

Does it need to sound clean and fast on a low-current use? Fine. Smaller wire, then. As in a signal coupling cap.

The only thing I use caps for is power supply filters, having eliminated every other use of them in favor of much better, more realistic sound.

In a power supply, fastest release of current without changing signal
bandwidth, speed or correct rhythm, pace and timing of music is what the capacitor must accomplish.

To this end, heavier leadouts are employed. That is why one can buy Dynamicaps with speaker leadouts (large), and with smaller WonderWire leadouts ("electronic").

Now, a little deduction and back-up experimentation will confirm exactly
what you might expect in this regard, should it be the exact same capacitor-- except for the leadouts..... in a power supply, the "speaker" cap with the heavy leads will smoke the "electronic" cap-- and badly, especially in musical dynamics and adherence to correct musical timing.

Remember, this is the exact same capacitor except for the leadouts.

So, why would I use the stock "electronic" leadouts as well, in a power supply?

That is because Dynamicaps are designed so that they can be paralleled and not smear the music. That is a rare quality in capacitors!

So, one can successfully parallel different values of Dynamicaps in order to achieve two things: (1) Much greater instantaneous release of current upon circuit demand, and (2) a wider operating bandwidth.

In this case, one can use the stock leadouts IF all lead lengths are kept absolutely equal to the cap's intended design lengths. It's easy-- just use all of the lead wires stock lengths.

Would you like to "float" capacitors in 3-dimensional space so they won't be dulled sonically by touching against something else-- anything else?

OK, that's excellent performance-wise, but how do you keep them in place physically? Easy again! Just glue them all together into a ball, which is suspended by all the coil springs that you've made out of the stock leads!

Now, the next question: won't gluing them together dull their sound also?
NOT if you place plenty of Silicone2 (G.E. bathtub caulk-- premium variety-- at Home Depot, etc.) between all of them-- so they cannot touch each other. Is this good? Well, it's better sonically than every other mounting method out there! Does it hold up physically? Seems to! I've had zero failures shipping amps all over the world.... so far-- that is!

I hope this answers some of your questions..

-Dennis-

 

RE: Weller Soldering GUN, not iron., posted on September 5, 2016 at 22:29:21
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 Get the 650 model. The smaller one is too slow on heatup.

Also, one has to tighten the tip screws often-- very often, if you
want perfect solder joints. Use ONLY the "silver" tips-- the pure
copper ones oxidize and cause problems.....

Remember-- solder guns can't be used on or near Solid-State devices.
The powerful magnetic fields and induced voltages will fry Solid-State
components.

--Dennis--

 

RE: Well, it is a role of DIY'ers to fiddle with things, posted on September 5, 2016 at 22:44:39
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 The audible differences are easy to measure.

Your assumption is that people DO measure them.

AND, I would agree! Audiophool caps are usually the best built,
and best measuring caps that the major cap makers build.

If you wish to pay for that-- the best of parts from each batch-- then
why shouldn't you have those over the near-failures (that barely passed standard factory tests) that are put
out for Industrial uses-- or for standard consumer electronics.

There's really nothing wrong with either approach-- do you wish a standard Yugo, or would you like a Porsche?

You can buy either, so depending on your proclivities, you can
have it your way in either case!

Hey! It's the Human Race again!

---Dennis---

 

I listen to live acoustic music on average more than once a week. , posted on September 8, 2016 at 23:04:29
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 I became a boy chorister in an Anglican (Episcopalian) cathedral when I was nine, that's 57 years ago.

I have made, edited and broadcast simple stereo recordings of such music. And hope to restart that part of this hobby.

I am not persuaded that I NEED a SET amp, nor $$$$$ caps, nor cables to hear and be affected by such music - recorded simply with a s few mikes as possible at a distance - reproduced well at home.

I am persuaded that I prefer a well thought out PP valve amp when listening. But that in Summer here that is impractical.

I am persuaded that I prefer a speaker which has good step and impulse response. And, that absolute polarity matters. FR dipoles.

I would not use any 'popular' multiple close-mono-miked mix-down recordings to assess my system, enjoy them though I do. Some of them.

Close miking alters timbre, Eq, compression ......

Here's a question for you. What do our affective/hearing systems pay most attention to in identifying 'any and all' instruments and getting expression? A hint, quite a lot of instruments can't do continuous tones, so it just can't be the harmonics on the continuous tone.

I agree with Gusser/Cpotl that the most critical roles for C and Rs are in feedback networks (including RIAA done using NFB) and in passive RIAA networks, audibly. For me the ROI from snake-oil film caps is vanishingly low.

In valve amps IME a doubling of the wattage of signal R's lowers noise.
All such are audible and measurable.

I am a skeptic about audio beliefs, yet also about most testing because few DBT / hypothesis tests in audio are conducted well, and very few have a low enough value for beta. To wit I understand hypothesis testing, very few people do, here as well as in the general population.

I also believe that expectation bias is omnipresent within humans and among human groups. It is a given.


Warmest

Tim Bailey
Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

Page processed in 0.059 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]