I want to thank "Alpha Al " for suggesting the Mueller 60C all copper alligator clips. In conjunction with the Mil Spec wire, they were somewhat better sounding than "stock" alligator clips on the ends. The 60Cs allowed me to make better subjective decisions, easier. Way to go, Al !!

As of Wednesday, 8-16-16, I have had the time to evaluate all four main caps associated with my amp's B+ supply, and also the two main Rk caps that bypass my Type 45 tubes' cathode resistor. Six film caps in total - so far.

Out of these six film caps, ( I went back and forth listening very carefully, on each of the six film caps,) I discovered that 5 out of the 6 in my SET were installed 180 degrees wrong. That is some percentage !!! 83.33% backwards. WOW.

( Also helpful, using clip leads ) I find that with LSES ( Low Stored Energy Supply ) B+ filtering, the AMOUNT of WIRE in the B+ ( and ground ) systems plays a large roll in the SET's ultimate performance. I USED the newly made " good " clip leads to add wire, between each wired span of the power supply, and LISTENED to the effect, to find the OPTIMAL amount.

Speakers over 100 dB ( ALTEC, JBL, ALE ) are the needed tools for doing audio design by ear. In most cases, I added MORE wire than what was originally there. IF you add too much wire, you LOSE high end, and the music's pace and timing, so - one must trade-off intelligently.

The WIRE exercise was worth the time and effort.

I am HESITANT, its premature, to FULLY discuss what I heard, because the front end of this SET amp now " begs" to be both wire and cap optimized, as I just did to the supply and Type 45 Finals' Rks. When I finish this, I will know better what the overall result will sound like, and if I made any mistakes. So far, me thinks, so good.

One thing I am willing to bet, 99.99% of the people listening to SET amps, Push-Pull tube amps, etc., have NO CLUE as to if ALL their expensive, fancy smancy film caps, are installed in their optimal 180 degree position !! No one ( I know of ) has listened to EACH film cap, both positions, on well-wired / optimized high efficiency speakers.

For the record, in my DIY passive speaker crossovers ( ALTEC VOTT A7-800s ), the film caps - are ALL 180 degree optimized, eight film caps...YES !!

Get to it Dudes,....new audio playback pleasures might possibly await you !!

Have fun.

Jeff Medwin

PS, An old LA, CA friend, Enid Lumley would have really liked this !! She was "something else " !

 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - 91derlust 01:03:15 08/21/16 (0)
 100db speakers - like your A7 VOTTs?! You can't be serious. - Timbo in Oz 20:24:15 08/19/16 (8)
 RE: 100db speakers - like your A7 VOTTs?! You can't be serious. - PakProtector 17:59:24 08/23/16 (6)

...

Show full thread outline!

 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - 91derlust 01:03:15 08/21/16 (0)
 100db speakers - like your A7 VOTTs?! You can't be serious. - Timbo in Oz 20:24:15 08/19/16 (8)
 RE: 100db speakers - like your A7 VOTTs?! You can't be serious. - PakProtector 17:59:24 08/23/16 (6)
 I would certainly not expect to hear nuances and small changes. - Timbo in Oz 22:08:36 08/23/16 (5)
 RE: I would certainly not expect to hear nuances and small changes. - PakProtector 13:45:11 08/24/16 (4)
 The 63s will run off two modified LEAK Stereo 20s, strapped and high-pass filtered at 150Hz - Timbo in Oz 14:50:19 08/24/16 (3)
 KEF B139s in TL cabinets - Lew 11:10:00 08/27/16 (0)
 Tim, The system will only be as good as the modded Leak Amps - drlowmu 00:29:46 08/25/16 (1)
 Go away Geoff. - Timbo in Oz 03:19:38 08/25/16 (0)
 RE: 100db speakers - like your A7 VOTTs?! You can't be serious. - drlowmu 15:32:29 08/21/16 (0)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - Lew 10:54:08 08/18/16 (5)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - drlowmu 12:40:47 08/18/16 (4)
 "How the film cap is wound does not GUARANTEE what will sound best in the circuit." - Lew 14:29:39 08/20/16 (3)
 RE: "How the film cap is wound does not GUARANTEE what will sound best in the circuit." - drlowmu 07:02:46 08/21/16 (2)
 I know I'm getting old... - Lew 12:15:38 08/21/16 (1)
 RE: I know I'm getting old... - drlowmu 14:05:23 08/21/16 (0)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - hennfarm 09:11:31 08/18/16 (3)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - drlowmu 12:49:57 08/18/16 (2)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - 91derlust 15:12:57 08/18/16 (1)
 RE: Initial Report, Film Cap 180 degree orientation - Employing new-style Clip Leads - drlowmu 09:40:01 08/19/16 (0)

• http://what%20will%20sound%20best.%20%20yes,%20one%20has%20t

Hennfarm,

I am very sorry, when I posted that, that was the furthest thing from my mind. I did not seek to make a bad impression. 'Au contraire. So sorry.

I am pointing out something that was wrong 83 % in my build, so far, and I was showing others how to improve their own audio gear.

Also, this is something I never personally have seen addressed in a comprehensive manner.

The intent was to allow others, if so inclined, and encourage them to optimize their own systems

Designing BY EAR is a great way to go about things, assuming you have high efficiency speakers, which makes it easy to hear these things.

Jeff Medwin

Speed and waveform integrity does, which are orthogonal with timing. Minimally (distantly) miked music with as few mikes in coincident / other 'stereo' arrays, would also be essential.

After all, science has taught us that we get most information about music - the affective information, with an a Geoff, like you tell us you care about, from the starting transient of all acoustic instrument's notes.

Timbre, expression / intent, timing and interplay.

VOTT A7s were good speakers in their day, but yours still have most of their flaws. Poor FR, poor / inconsistent directivity, and early onset overload of the main driver, due to excursion problems.

{;-)!!!!!!!!

Confirmation bias, run riot.

Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

I MAY, in the future, go and gain SOLID experience measuring for the outer foil. Afterwards - I might disassemble the leads from this amp, and test for outer foil correlations. But if I did all this work, it would be so that I can build a second amp easier ( thinking JJ2A3 DC SET, stereo ).

I am not so sure I would give the information to others, who have done LITTLE or NO work at all. That would depend upon my intent, to be 100% amateur, or sell an item or two, every now and than. I don't know the answer to that.

I should measure the already - optimized Custom ALTEC crossovers' orientations too, may be easy to do, its a large unit, easy to parts-access.

BUT, I have forged a path here for others so inclined, a guy, say, like Nickel Core !! Others, using 100dB or higher speakers, can do this work, and document foil orientations, as we have discussed herein. If they ( or you ) wanna give out your findings, that is up to them.

Its sorta COOL when you do film cap orientations unprejudiced, 100% by ear. But its sorta smart IF you were to test for outer foil first, and NOT let that testing prejudice your listening determinations.

Lew. The adding of " more wire " within spans of this DC amp was a BIG thing, in terms of fleshing-out the music, and getting maximum dynamic contrasts. So EZ to hear on A7-800s !!! Warning !!! - too much wire SLOWS the pace, and loses the timing, and De Highs!!

I FINISHED wire and orientation of my right channel last night. I had the high gain ( 1/2 12AX7 ) Driver stage's Rk bypass cap 180 degrees BACKWARDS, and, being a dominant tube, with most of the amp's gain, it was EASY to A-B that. The presentation became " more real sounding " to me, guitar strings in the background became more realistic, when I reversed it and Wonder Soldered it in place.

I am getting WEARY of all this work. I have been " busting my chops " ( self-imposed) on building this ALTEC VOTT system, " as good as I can ", since I got the 825 VOTT enclosures last December. I spent all of 2015 listening to 515B woofers full range !! One night this week I had a wire-span idea while lying in bed, got up at 3 AM and listened till 4:20 AM !!

Right now, I wanna finish the Left channel, and hear music at home, maybe invite some of my friends from Church over to hear it. I am VERY impressed with this simple two-way ALTEC. Love the horn loading's effect on the 515B woofer.

So many ALTEC A7 VOTTs are done wrong !!! A shame.

Jeff Medwin

To retain the QUAD's impulse response the filters are high quality first order Passive Line Level inputs crossovers inside the amps.

I don't think the LEAKs will be working very hard.

I do not expect that system to clip. That's for the colder months.

And in Summer they will be driven by a nice big rebuilt Perreaux 6000C, again with passive 150Hz 1st High-Pass input filters.

Bass? 4 or 5 distributed DIY subs driven by a total of about 600 watts LP @ 150 Hz 3rd order, and analogue Eq'd - for now - by 2 to 4 1/3rd octave equalisers to get down to 20Hz if possible. ? Two big stereo power amps and two integrated amps.

Again, I don't expect much clipping, even though I do like to listen loud. :-)!

I'm not big into Rock music and not big into Mahler, I'm mostly into HIP classical.

I listen to live acoustical music about once a week, mostly choral with organ, and some chamber and chamber orchestra.

I used to record concerts for later broadcast on FM, and intend to go back to it.

As I'm a pensioner this has all taken time, a bit of money each month.

But we are now close to the first install, with an interim bass array of two boxes and 4 spherical encl. Giving 2 9" and 4 8" bass drivers - all getting down to 35Hz. That will keep us going and get my wife happy.

Yet to finish? two clam-shell P-P sealed subs (boxes are built), then build two TL subs with KEF B139s. I already have a large RB sub with a dedicated locally mfd long-throw 10inch ELF driver.

Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger