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AMP Orientation - allows for testing film Caps' Orientation

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Posted on August 11, 2016 at 09:12:49
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



Figured it out, my DIY adjustable equipment rack can make a nice amplifier holder, to test the many caps ( with the newly-made clip leads ), for all the film caps' proper 180 degree orientations.

All the amp's voltages tested " spot - on ", so I am ready to embark. I really anticipate a good result. The FIRST test, last night, just blew me away !!

ALTEC drivers are so glorious to use when doing tube amp design. The DGG LP in the right hand corner is Wilhelm Kempff, doing Beethoven Sonatas DGG 2830 151. See guys, I listen to classy music when I pick my nose.

Besides the film cap's proper ( best sounding ) 180 degree orientation in the circuit, I find that the WIRE connecting the cap to the circuit, the lead wire, has a MAJOR effect on the ALTECS, and that wire HAS to be optimized also. As Bob Fulton ( 1925-1988 ) used to say to us in 1978, " an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience ". You BETCHA !!!

Amp shown is my own DIY build, a direct coupled, two stage Type 45 stereo unit.

Jeff Medwin

 

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RE: AMP Orientation - allows for testing film Caps' Orientation, posted on August 11, 2016 at 11:23:36
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Quite ingenious Jeff but can you sit in a chair as you work at that level?..That would suck sitting on the floor as I have done that at different times and it's no fun.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 11, 2016 at 18:00:14
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
 Jeff, I thought horizontal operation of DHT's was a no no in that it could lead to grid wire sag thus plate to grid shorts ie potential firecracker ? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Cheers Johno

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 11, 2016 at 20:21:32
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 It's the filaments that can sag - they have by far the greatest thermal expansion issues. The 300B spec sheets indicate the filament plane as pins 1 and 2, which must be vertical if the tube is horizontal. The 1939 Tung-Sol 2A3 sheet shows the same, but the RCA sheets (I have 1933 and 1945) don't say anything. Probably the biplates are different from the monoplates. The 45 data sheets also call for a vertical filament plane of the tube is lying down.

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 11, 2016 at 20:52:34
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
 Thanks for the clarification Paul
Cheers Johno

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 12, 2016 at 04:32:43
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 2454
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
 FWIW, I've lost a 300b by having it set on its (wrong) side. Now if I need to work on DHT live I find a way to turn it upside down.

 

RE: AMP Orientation - allows for testing film Caps' Orientation, posted on August 12, 2016 at 09:15:39
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 No chair. Possibly 80% of my DIY building I do on a rug, legs crossed in yoga position.

Everyone's different !!

Jeff

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 12, 2016 at 12:49:33
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Johno,

Well, the driver tube is a 12AX7, so that can go any way, The Type 45 ST tube, IF it does develop a problem, can be replaced for $30.00 or less on eBay, if one is careful and patient. Last week, I bought one 45 ST, tested at 79 on a TV-7 ( 82 is new ) and it was about $25 with shipping.

What concerns me the most now is owning an amp where the film caps are not optimized, in two areas:

(1) Their 180 degree orientation, as to how they were wound, and thus sound different, with each orientation

(2) The cap's OPTIMUM lead out material, in terms of AWG, and wire type, so as not to lose energy, dynamics, and wide bandwidth.

I figure this Johno, I can always replace a 45 ST tube, but the cap being optimized or not in the amp, is a permanent degrade or enhancement. Addressing that is up to the listener / user of the amp.

I am most curious to hear what happens once I try to optimize the film caps in the amp, and the overall listening result on my VOTTs !!

I TRIED out the Mueller BU-60C all copper alligator clips yesterday, ( Alpha Al's suggestion ) and used Mueller's ( entire clip ) insulators, BU-62-0 and 62-2 and was able to easily hear their superiority over the cheapo alligators I was initially using. Ordered more Mueller parts from Mouser today, so I can do this A-B work less impeded.

Fun.

Jeff

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 12, 2016 at 17:45:46
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
 Hi Jeff,
always a dilemma for DIY builders testing equipment under the bonnet post build. Avoiding a hernia from lifting is a personal priority.

I destroyed a pair of expensive KR300B's back in 2000 testing amp in H plane. So today I test my completed builds using a adjustable wood cutting horse sitting on a work bench with the amp on top, amp sits vertical & relatively comfortable to work under.

PS - The statement posted by Paul by 'WE'
"The 300B spec sheets indicate the filament plane as pins 1 and 2, which must be vertical if the tube is horizontal".

Question - How can a valve mounted in H plane & maintain V filament ?

Cheers Johno

 

Maybe some sort of DIY Rotisserie holder..., posted on August 12, 2016 at 18:35:46
FenderLover

like they have in auto restorations? Change angles to whatever is needed, at the moment.

8^)

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 12, 2016 at 19:03:41
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 So, you speak from direct experience. Sorry to hear about the loss. Thanks for sharing it with us all.

The difference in a cap being in and out 180 degrees in a circuit is a bigger fish to fry, IMHO.

The difference between me modding a lovely DynamiCap 4.0 E, using either one ( or using two runs, in parallel ) of 16 AWG Mil Spec wire as the cap's lead out, is totally HUGE on my " very well wired " high efficiency speaker crossovers, as it was in my 45 amp, with a 0.033 uF teflon...in each case, a single cap !!

And what is interesting is, few DIYers in audio has gone at this, full bore.

In the weeks ahead, I will gain first - hand doing and listening experience. Lovely....can't wait to hear the end result.

Jeff

 

RE: Is running DHT's in H plane Ok ?, posted on August 12, 2016 at 21:18:18
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 You probably use more Dynamicaps than I do, but I would warn you to be very careful if you are messing with the leads at or near where they enter into the body of the capacitor. Dynamicaps, like the Infinicaps that went before them, are very fragile where there is a glop of solder between the lead and the body.

Apart from that, I would be very interested to know whether there is any trend to your findings about capacitor orientation, using the listening method. Are you finding in general that what is considered electrically optimal (outer foil toward lowest impedance) is also optimal for your subjective evaluations? Or is there no consistent relationship? Thanks.

 

RE: Maybe some sort of DIY Rotisserie holder..., posted on August 13, 2016 at 02:31:46
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
 Wow never seen that before - ingenious.
Work smarter not harder.
Cheers Johno

 

Just don't open the doors on that 914,.., posted on August 13, 2016 at 10:48:24
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 while it's in that rotisserie, unless or until you weld in some braces, front to back on the inside of the car. Else, the car will flex and never be the same. Unfortunately, you cannot do that with a vacuum tube.

 

RE: Just don't open the doors on that 914,.., posted on August 13, 2016 at 10:52:55
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



' Been more fun to view, and contemplate, if it were a 1958 356A Speedster Carerra. Right Lew ?? !!

Jerry Seinfeld just sold his '58, this year, for 1.54 million. See, engine photo.

Jeff

 

RE: Just don't open the doors on that 914,.., posted on August 14, 2016 at 14:00:34
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 That's a plain Jane Carrera GS that sold for a high price because of its owner. In the 90s, I owned and restored a 59 Carrera GT Speedster, with alu doors, hood, and deck lid and many other trick options to lighten the car. One of only 27 made, would probably be worth at least $2-3 million now, no matter who owns it.

 

RE: Just don't open the doors on that 914,.., posted on August 14, 2016 at 18:55:31
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 I'm not as high a roller as you. We two HAVE similar interests though.

In 1967 I bought a 1957 1600 CC Speedster, minus engine, with rusted floor panels. $700.00 We restored the floor, body, and swapped the 1600 Super engine from my '61 356B Roadster into it.

I would have LOVED to have seen and driven that GT Speedster of yours, just one time !! Wow, Lou !!

BTW, with the SET 45 amp now vertical, and double 16 AWG clip leads with copper alligators, I have made "discoveries" last week. Have gotten my audio system quickly sorted out, to a new and higher level, and am very pleased.

Worked MOSTLY on amp and my A7-800 custom passive crossovers, listening to caps and wiring, wiring amounts, in some cases.

Jeff

 

So, since we are kindred car guys,..., posted on August 15, 2016 at 07:24:25
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 can you respond to my question about capacitor orientation? Which was: When you orient capacitors according to "best sound", is there a trend with respect to the location of the lead that is connected to the outer foil, i.e., is it usually toward the node with the lowest impedance, which "good practice" dictates? Thanks.

I am relegated to an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider Veloce, these days. 1959.

 

You guys a a couple levels above me., posted on August 16, 2016 at 07:13:08
FenderLover
 Most precious cars I ever restored was a VW Ghia and couple of VW bug convertibles. Oh... and my BMW 1602 and 2002Ti.

I did help a friend redo his 1957 Speedster. And an early 911 with those crazy, no-float chamber Solex downdraft carbs.

 

RE: So, since we are kindred car guys,..., posted on August 16, 2016 at 09:49:39
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 My freshman year college ( dorm ) rooomate had a baby blue Alpha. I now use a Chrysler MiniVan.

Lew, on caps, I have decided JUST to orientate them by ear only, and not take the time to find out what is the inner and outer winding.

SO far, on my L1/C1/L2/C2 SET amp filter, BOTH main caps associated with C1 ( 35 uF and 5 uF ) were determined by me to be installed originally " out of orientation". It was fuzzy and muffled sounding versus the correct orientation, like someone robbed the music of its timbres slightly, and threw gauze over the speakers.

I ALSO am finding these clip leads allow me to select the correct AMOUNT of wire, between components. Its a trade-off between maximum dynamics, and, with too much wire, losing the highs !!!

Oh my dear, Gusser, T.K., etc all would have a hard time with this post, as may others. Hey, its the state of the art in audio, designing, optimizing and DIY implementing by ear !! One needs good over-100 DB speakers to make these determinations easily and properly, which leads to the big three, ALTEC, JBL, and ALE as being the minimum quality acceptable, speaker / tube amp design-wise. I have RE-DONE my A7-800 crossovers extensively, last two weeks, using these same techniques, to good result.

You coming to RMAF in October, Denver ? If so, lets do lunch.

Jeff

 

Subjective judgement,..., posted on August 16, 2016 at 14:39:50
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 especially your subjective judgement, is not open to challenge, but when you use language such as this, in describing the effect of re-orienting those two capacitors: " It was fuzzy and muffled sounding versus the correct orientation, like someone robbed the music of its timbres slightly, and threw gauze over the speakers."

Don't you open yourself up to some criticism, since you were heretofore all aglow about the sound of this amplifier? Probably, the difference between one orientation and the other is very subtle, such that maybe only you can discern it, because of your familiarity with the sound of your system. Sometimes in an effort to describe auditory phenomena, we are forced to use hyperbole.

 

RE: Subjective judgement,..., posted on August 16, 2016 at 15:22:15
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Fine !! All I want is ti know audibly, what orientation sounds best to me, and employ that best-sounding-to-me orientation in what I am using.

Tha amount of wire, going into and out of a film cap, is a whole other area to optimize Lew, and I am TRYING to do that also. By ear.

Lots of fun to hear all of this !!

Regards,

Jeff

 

We're all in the same boat,..., posted on August 17, 2016 at 07:11:52
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 at least all of us who are incorrigible tinkerers.

 

Amen !!, posted on August 17, 2016 at 08:08:32
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Lew,

My Dad's father, who I never met, but am named after ( Julius, Jeffrey ) was an inventor. He invented the equivalent of a Xerox machine, which he never patented. So, I often think of him as I tinker and ponder the genes.

He was a Russian immigrant, New Brunswick, NJ.

Jeff

 

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