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A safe Dc coupled amp

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Posted on July 27, 2016 at 09:55:34
genelex
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Joined: October 16, 2005


Hello Gang , Within the constraint of not changing the given circuit. I looking for ideas on how to include a safety mechanism for this circuit , that will prevent the 300b grid voltage from rising above the cathode voltage, (in the event of driver tube malfunction or removal)
thanks in advance

 

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RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 27, 2016 at 10:38:30
Replace Rk with a CCS

Al

 

RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 27, 2016 at 13:20:21
danlaudionut
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I like this idea ...

DanL



 

RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 27, 2016 at 13:33:03
Triode_Kingdom
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"Replace Rk with a CCS"

That won't protect the grid.


 

RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 27, 2016 at 15:09:53
genelex
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I am trying to stick to the original circuit, no plate chokes or ccs
maybe something that limits a current or voltage like a sensor or something that would trigger a shutdown (not a fuse) maybe something related to this idea of John Broskie's using a current sensing resistor and a transistor.
http://www.tubecad.com/2015/12/blog0335.htm

third drawing down . I am not taking my driver B+ from the cathode of the 300b so this won't work , but maybe something like this could be done

 

That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 00:23:59
Michael Samra
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Exactly.Also,if the 6GK5 quits conducting,the 300B will see the positive 150vdc rail voltage at G1 and then you will be drawing grid current..It's kind of strange because even with all things working normal,you still see a 65vdc potential difference between the cathode and G1 of the 300B.When you couple direct DC to G1 of an output tube,that always poses a risk I don't take.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 02:34:22
Cleantimestream
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The schematic above me is bullet proof, a direct coupled cathode follower... problem is... it lacks resolution achieved from other designs using coupling capacitors...!

The sound is polite and very smooth but...

I built this about 5 years ago and had it on the road with me when I travel out of town for work... I use a quite rare Conn 6V6 now.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 05:32:08
Triode_Kingdom
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Perhaps the lack of resolution is due to factors other than it being a cathode follower per se. I would expect the output power of this design to be well under one watt. Common cathode topologies will output considerably more.


 

RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 28, 2016 at 05:45:41
Triode_Kingdom
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Connecting a transistor across the driver tube is somewhat crude for my taste. The risk of sonic disturbance would need to be carefully analyzed before adding something like this. A better option in my opinion would be an opamp to monitor cathode current and a relay or solid-state crowbar to shut off the mains if there's a fault.


 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 06:06:10
Cleantimestream
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Raymond Bates stated 5 watts....I know... is Triode wired, but it does sound like 4 to 5 watts.... sounds best with 6F6's... my friend built EXACTLY the same platform except his used 2.5 K primary instead of mine being 5K ... his sounds better...go figure... the sort of facts that leave me with a sense of wonder.about this whole hobby.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Golden Ratio Dissipations, posted on July 28, 2016 at 08:43:07
drlowmu
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I run this same basic circuit and have never had a failure.

Why add parts, and why make compromises ?????

I run my Driver Tube at GOLDEN RATIO proportions ( which I learned from Dennis at Serious Stereo) of the tube's maximum plate dissipation, and never worry about such an unlikely event, and degrading the amp due to such low-probability events.

By golden ratio proportion, that is 62%, so IF a driver tube has a 5 Watt maximum rated plate dissipation, I would reduce CURRENT ( not VDC ) so that Plate to Cathode voltage, times current, equaled about 3.1 Watts.

On a 5 Watt rated plate, unusually long life will ensue. Additionally, the driver tube will SOUND BETTER being less thermally stressed, a certain "ease" of the music's presentation, audibly absent when running tube well above Golden Ratio proportions, and close to maximum dissipation. !!

Write to me and I will email you a design guide to this type of amp.

Have fun,

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 09:39:10
dave slagle
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A 5K transformer has a 25:1 stepdown ratio and even generously assuming unity gain from the cathode follower means that driver needs to deliver over 200V peak volts to net 5W out.

Now a 6SJ7 with a 24K plate load will have a voltage gain of around 50 and 2.2ma through a 560 ohm cathode resistor gives a bias of 1.2V so unless you are planning A2 drive to the pentode I'll go beyond TK's prediction of 1W and say a quarter of a watt. Dropping to a 2K5 output helps things out a bit but I still don't see 1W out of this puppy as shown. Move that 5K OT to the plate and we have a very different situation.

All of the above said... IF it sounds good who cares? Just look how far numbers have taken audio in the past 50 years :-)

 

http://www.tubecad.com/may2000/page17.html, posted on July 28, 2016 at 12:59:18
Frihed89
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But have you ever actually heard of a 2-stage failure, other than third-hand from your Aunt Minnie?

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 14:08:12
Cleantimestream
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Am sorry Dave... my fault... lost in translation... My response to Michael Samra was because he made mention catastrophic failure of a direct coupled design was why he did not want to build one. My response was that said direct coupled cathode follower has had thousands of hours on it and remains absolutely constant as the northern star.

So far as the 5 watts... that is what Raymand Bates said... specifically 4.5 watts {that was the 1949 schemo I threw up there and here is the whole dissertation}...Complete schematic diagram of direct-coupled 6V6 cathode-follower amplifier.

"There are two features that give this amplifier its superior performance. One is direct coupling between the plate of the 6SJ7 and the grid of the 6V6. The other is the cathode-follower output from the 6V6.

In addition to its simplicity, direct coupling eliminates the undesirable characteristics that are inherent in ordinary resistance-capacitance coupling, such as short circuiting of weak signals and grid blocking of strong signals.

The cathode-follower output, in addition to its simplicity, provides both improved high and low frequency response, damping out of all the peaks in both the output transformer and speaker, less distortion, and 100 percent degenerative feedback.

In order to determine the circuit values in the schematic, free use was made of the tube manuals and Kirchoff's and Ohm's laws. Commencing with the output stage in the conventional manner, the tube manuals indicate that for a single-stage output, a 6L6, 6V6, 6F6, or 6K6 are likely output tubes. The 6V6 was selected because of its ready availability and relatively lower percentage harmonic distortion rating. The 6SJ7 was chosen mainly because of its high gain and low percent distortion.

In order to keep power requirements down, I chose a 350 volt, center-tapped, 120 mA (53 mA only required) power transformer which is readily available at moderate cost. Allowing for a 15 volt drop in the filter choke and a 250 volt drop from the plate to the cathode of the 6V6, 85 volts is available at the cathode of the 6V6. Since in a direct coupled circuit the grid bias, 12.5 volts in this case, is obtained by the voltage differential between the cathode and grid, approximately 73 volts is required at the grid of the 6V6 (and at the plate of the 6SJ7, inasmuch as these two tube elements are connected directly together). With 73 volts at the plate and 55 volts at the screen of the 6SJ7, a voltage amplification of 115 can be obtained at only 0.8 percent distortion. This means that a 0.1 volt signal at the grid of the 6SJ7 will provide a 11.5 volt signal at the grid of the 6V6 which is considered adequate.

In accordance with Kirchoff's law, the voltage and current distribution around the circuit is indicated in the schematic. Note that there is a 12.5 volt drop through the DC resistance of the primary of the output transformer which was measured to be approximately 250 ohms. The cathode-follower output is obtained simply by connecting the transformer to the cathode of the 6V6 and tying the plate and screen of the 6V6 together to the "B plus" supply, as shown.

The output of the amplifier is approximately 4.5 watts. While this figure may seem low to those accustomed to dealing with amplifiers having output of 20 or more watts, it is entirely adequate for home use when an efficient speaker system is used.

Tests made by various organizations have shown that for listening in the average home living room, an output of less than one watt is generally used. The only reason for providing more power than this is to allow for the peak passages that occur in some classical compositions.

The input sensitivity is such that even the high-quality, low-output crystal pickups will provide sufficient drive.

No provision has been made for the use of variable reluctance pickups, although there is no reason why such units could not be used if a preamplifier stage were added. There have been many satisfactory preamplifiers described in various issues of this magazine.

In the event a preamplifier is used for the magnetic pickups, great care should be exercised in the shielding and placement of parts to avoid hum pickup. The careful selection of the tube used in the preamplifier will aid materially in the reduction of hum.

There is sufficient reserve capacity in the power supply to take care of almost any type of preamplifier without any trouble.

No provision for tone controls has been made, although they could be added with little difficulty. There is a great deal of controversy as to the best type of tone control, and it was felt that they could be added at a later date when the most satisfactory type had been determined by experiment.

It is essential that the primary of the output transformer, T1 have a resistance of approximately 250 ohms, as the resistance of this winding determines the grid bias for the 6V6. A check of the various types of transformers on the dealers' shelves by means of an ohmmeter will be sufficient. The primary impedance of this transformer should be from 5000 to 6000 ohms, with the higher value giving slightly less distortion.

The voice coil winding should be selected to match the speaker in use. Most of the better speakers have an impedance in the vicinity of 8 ohms, and for that reason t his value is specified.

It is not essential that this transformer be of the sealed type, but it should be of good quality so that the full benefit of the amplifier may be realized. Poor transformers are usually deficient in frequency response at the upper and lower frequencies.

The power supply, being conventional, needs no explanation."

I use a 6F6 and calculated .85 watt

For bomb proof design {screen and plate protected} in direct coupled schemos ... see Thorsten Loesch and Jeremy Epstein.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Aunt Minnie? Doesn't she make frozen TV dinners?, posted on July 28, 2016 at 14:59:54
Michael Samra
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I tried to find to find some the other day being too lazy to cook.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Aunt Minnie? No, TV Dinners happen when Aunt Flo is in town nt, posted on July 28, 2016 at 15:21:29

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 16:29:41
Michael Samra
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Ken
The advantages of DC coupling is one you don't have to sell me on.Most of solid state amps are DC coupled,like my Threshold 800A and SA/2 amps.
I looked again at that circuit and the 300B is dissipating about of 19.4 or 33 watts,depending on how you calculate it. Just pulling out the driver tube would put the DC rail voltage on the grid but if there is a way you can interrupt the B+ in the event of a driver tube failure,that would be the ticket.Having positive DC on G1 is ok,as long as you don't exceed the dissipation rating of the tube.I see a voltage of 335vdc between plate and cathode.I see 58ma draw at the cathode.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Golden Ratio Dissipations, posted on July 28, 2016 at 17:29:33
vinnie2
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It's interesting how folks have tried to apply the golden ratio to everything from paintings to the stock market. I wish they took as much interest in the "golden rule", the world would be a better place.

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 28, 2016 at 17:54:03
dave slagle
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I do not dispute the stability of the circuit but I do question the claims made by the desinger (or whoever is quoted).

I took a precursory look and it didn't seem to add up and then after reading the quoted claims I simmed the thing. It pretty much shocked me that the currents and voltages in my sim are all spookily close to the ones published on the schematic but beyond that I get very different results.

Mainly the gain of 115V from the pentode seems suspect and the sim shows a gain of roughly 40 and reveals copious amounts of even distortion. The 73V plate voltage on the 6SJ7 sets a limit on the negative going waveform and assures lots of even order distortion as you "crank it up"

the cathode follower takes that 75V "cap" and pretty much tells me that just over a watt is possible unless you accept lots of distortion. Here is the complete circuit wiht a 1V, 1.4V and 2V peak input voltage and for reference the SJ7 is biased at 1.3V in my sim.





and here is the waveform and fft of what amounts to a 1/4W output signal.





Not exactly pretty and if spice is to be trusted that is 11%THD.





and to be clear... I am not making any sonic judgements and for all I know the circuit may sound great within its realm but I am quite dubious of the claims made wrt easily measured performance.

dave


 

RE: A safe Dc coupled amp, posted on July 28, 2016 at 18:30:41
hifipaul
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A simple and easy safeguard is to place a 200ma fast blow fuse between ground and the center tap in the secondary. Sonicly invisible and quick to shut down B+ in case of failure.

 

I remember Aunt Flo, posted on July 29, 2016 at 02:22:22
Michael Samra
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Location: saginaw michigan
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 02:52:14
Cleantimestream
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Thank You Dave for your time expended... you already read my own statement ... I got .85 watt ... running the math. Very smooth and polite sound... rather different sounding from my mesh plate 77/801A \91A variant. Raymond Bates was a frequent contributor to the early Audio Engineering magazines from 48' to 52' ... later known as Audio with their demise sometime in the early 90's...?
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 05:53:13
Triode_Kingdom
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0.85 watt output is respectable for that circuit. I recently built a cathode follower prototype using a 10W dissipation triode. My notes aren't here in front of me, but I seem to recall output was something under 1/2W. My design has exposed anodes, so I used a negative supply under the OPT primary (also 5K) and grounded the anodes directly to the chassis. It was otherwise pretty similar to yours. One benefit of a CF output is the lack of distortion in that configuration. However, it's not clear to me that this isn't negated by the huge voltage swings required of the driver in order to make power. At any rate, it's a useful topology when higher power levels aren't required.


 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 08:36:12
dave slagle
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OK so we all roughly agree on the power output.... so how does one reconcile the 4.5W of output claimed by the original author? I am used to exaggerated claims in audio but that seems to be a product of the 80's and beyond and for the most part trust the engineering claims from decades earlier when we were an honest society :-)

dave

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 08:55:50
Cleantimestream
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Pure speculation here... if he was thinking screen not tied to the plate or massive distortion acceptable... am going with the first ... the amp does indeed sound more powerful than my 45 set...and that amp drives the grids positive.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 17:14:39
dave slagle
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hmm...

even if the 6V6 is wired as a pentode I do not see ever getting to unity gain from that stage. The problem all goes back to the driver being in capable of swinging enough voltage to get anywhere near the claimed output power.

If you go the massive distortion route, you still don't get close to the claimed power.

dave

 

The article doesn't match the schematic, posted on July 29, 2016 at 19:05:35
Triode_Kingdom
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In addition to the claim of 4.5W, Bates says a 11.5V signal at the grid is "adequate." That certainly doesn't describe the cathode follower in this schematic. It does sound like a standard common cathode amplifier, though. Perhaps he didn't fully understand how this works, and he never actually measured the output power. Then again, maybe this was all corrected in a subsequent issue, and the correction hasn't made its way onto the Web.

I've been aware of this schematic for quite some time because it's on the Bonavolta Audio site. That copy has no article or performance data, though. It was interesting to read the accompanying text after all these years. :)


 

RE: The article doesn't match the schematic, posted on July 29, 2016 at 20:21:34
Cleantimestream
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I have the reproduced magazine published by Old Colony... I would havehave to take the time and compare the schematic from Old Colony to what is floating around on the web.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: That won't protect the grid., posted on July 29, 2016 at 20:29:57
Cleantimestream
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Dave... I can't see those guys from post war intentionally being deceptive ... what with C.G. McPROUD @ the helm (one I consider impeccable character) I chalk it up to being human... I have witnessed plenty of inaccurate information bandied about, here...sadly I have contributed some myself.

Raymond isn't here to defend himself, am giving him a pass.


The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: The article doesn't match the schematic, posted on July 29, 2016 at 20:43:51
Triode_Kingdom
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No need. The point is, no 6V6 cathode follower will output 4.5W, no matter what you do to it. Incidentally, I looked up the notes on my prototype CF amplifier (10W triode). With an anode-cathode voltage a little above 300V, maximum output at the cathode (primary of the output transformer) is 0.23W. That power level requires 110V P-P at the grid. A 6V6 might do slightly better, but nothing like the numbers Bates claimed.







 

RE: Golden Ratio Dissipations, posted on July 29, 2016 at 22:53:09
91derlust
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Nicely put vinnie. Why would someone mandate applying the golden ratio to what is arbitrary? May as well be 2/3 or 70% or 60%.

I'd suggest keeping dissipation below 70% or there abouts to increase tube longevity and choose the operating points (plate current: voltage ratio) for each tube that provides the sonic presentation preferred.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

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