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Rebuild of MC30s

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Posted on April 29, 2016 at 17:53:58
Lee of Omaha
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We just this morning complete rebuilding a pair of MC30s. Mostly followed Jim McShane's thorough and excellent advice--thanks much, Jim. Beefed up the power supply, replaced all caps (new 'lytics for filtering, Russian K-40Ys for coupling).

The sound without break-in (ok, 7 hours of break-in) is stunning. We're going to do a little tube rolling and see what happens.

One thing we're considering is replacing the 12AU7 with a 6CG7 (same gain, just a socket rewire). What do you all think?

 

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RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on April 29, 2016 at 18:05:16
Triode_Kingdom
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Congrats on the work. I'm a 12AU7 hater, but this is one of those rare cases where I wouldn't change it out. It simply will be less of a McIntosh if you do.

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on April 29, 2016 at 19:54:59
Steve O
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While the 12AU7 gets little respect these days, as TK points out, it might be slightly less a "Mac" without it. Obviously, Mac managed to get around the AU7's shortcomings and used it in most of their amp designs thru the 50s & 60s.

If the 12AU7's reputation bothers you, a plug-n-play alternative is the 12BH7...no socket rewiring nec. Not quite as linear as a 6FQ7 however.

Another possibility would be to replace the PI (12AU7) tail resistor with a CCS and make the load resistors equal.

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on April 29, 2016 at 20:50:26
Lee of Omaha
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I've spent hours staring at the schematic. It took about two hours to figure out (I think) the output circuit. The rest of the circuit I don't fully understand; my approximation (guess) is lots of gain, almost all of which is fedback six ways from Sunday to reduce distortion.

On the output circuit, my take is that McIntosh gets more gain out the output tube than it is designed to give (by modulating one screen voltage with the other tube's plate voltage, screen voltage being mostly responsible for gain) then feeds most of it back to reduce distortion.

While I understand and appreciate constant current voltage amplification, I don't want to screw with what I don't understand, the 12AU7 being buried inside a bunch of feedback loops. The 6CG7 sub doesn't seem like a big deal, since the gain is the same, the differences in interelectrode capacitance is negligible at audio frequencies in a linear (vice RIAA) amp, and the amp was has sufficient excess heater current capability

 

I have rebult tons of Mc30s and Mc60s and, posted on April 30, 2016 at 09:49:31
Michael Samra
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the biggest thing that benefits these is the film cap power supply and a choke.I use the .32hy or the .5hy and of course the common tie point ground.
The 6CG7 is a nice improvement as well however,not everyone wants to do that so your alternative is to use a 12BH7 or make an adapter.The film cap supply is monumental in in Mac amps especially with the tube rect.The choke you can bolt on to one side of the power trans and goop the other side so you don't make a hole in the chassis.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on April 30, 2016 at 09:59:22
Steve O
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...the Mac unity coupled design does indeed utilize a lot of corrective feedback although it's a combination of local and global. Anecdotally I've heard something on the order of 30-40dB overall but haven't taken the time to verify it.


The output stage is actially very low gain ~2 considered from a-k. As such, one of the practical considerations in overall amp design was getting sufficient voltage swing to g1 of the finals. Also, the finals are operated in true pentode mode where the voltage betw g2 & k is held constant at all times (regardless of signal level), contrary to what a cursory examination of the schematic seems to indicate.

If you're so inclined, a simple search will turn up numerous detailed explanations of the operation of the unity coupled circuit on the net.

Overall, I agree: it's best not to mess with something one doesn't understand.

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on April 30, 2016 at 10:50:07
Michael Samra
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Steve
The argument about the Mac unity coupled circuit having voltage gain seems to have varying opinions. Doc Hoyer who knows that circuit better than anyone being he was friends with Frank Mcintosh and Sidney Corderman,says it definitely does not amplify voltage and this is why the driver has to be boot strapped.
The Mac is the only amp where I can pull the output tubes and still hear a clean undistorted signal but at reduced power.

Here is one of the best explanations I have found from Dave Gilepsie and he also in the no voltage gain camp.

"The Unity Coupled circuit is as you say, a tertiary feedback arrangement. But to be more specific, it is exactly a 50-50 arrangement. That is, whereas in a conventional arrangement, the load for either tube is presented entirely at the plate, in this case, 50% of it is at the plate connection, while 50% is at the cathode connection. These two sections together then make up the total impedance that would normally be seen at just the plate in a conventional arrangement.

Since the peak AC voltage seen at the plate under full power conditions would normally be about 350 volts in a conventional arrangement (assuming the same tubes and operating/loading conditions), that means that 175 peak volts is appearing at the cathode with the 50/50 split arrangement that the Unity Coupled design uses -- which produces some serious challenges for the driver stage, requiring the boot strapped cathode followers etc., that appear before the output stage.

But this 175 peak volts that appears at the cathode would also cause serious reductions in power output if the screen voltage were held constant. If this were done, the application of increasing power output causes the cathode voltage to increase, which against an otherwise steady screen voltage, would produce a net reduction in screen/cathode voltage as power increased. With an effective ever increasing reduction in screen voltage with increasing power output then, maximum power output becomes significantly limited.

What to do? Attach the screen to the opposite tube's plate! Why? We know that when one tube is conducting, its cathode voltage is rising, and therefore, its plate voltage is falling. But the exact opposite is happening in the opposite tube. It's plate voltage is INCREASING (while its cathode voltage is falling). Since the cathode voltage is rising in the tube that is conducting, and with the screen of this tube connected to a source that is also rising by the same exact amount (it must since the windings are all 50/50, remember?), then it means that now, the effective screen voltage does not change, in spite of increasing power output. Quite a neat, but very necessary little trick.

As for the bias, because there is so much feedback employed in the output stage (100% if you base it on just the signal developed at the plate), then a critical setting of bias became unnecessary for Mac to achieve its stated performance specifications. They could even relax quiescent current draw, and still meet the specs because of it. With such relaxed current levels, virtually any tube could be installed without any real concern for excessive quiescent dissipation levels, since such a relaxed setting would accommodate virtually all tubes in this setting. No doubt, the bias could be tweaked for even better performance, but to achieve the published specs, it wasn't necessary.

The whole affair requires very tight coupling in the OPT between the various windings, which in part, generated the "Unity Coupled" name given to it because the windings are so closely coupled. Special bifilar and trifilar winding techniques were used to attain such tight coupling, with the results being more expensive to produce, but producing performance which speaks for itself".

Now with a 100% feedback,how are you going to measure any gain?

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

I would at least put in one film cap off the rectifier tube., posted on April 30, 2016 at 11:07:20
Michael Samra
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I use a 50uf panasonic film there.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on April 30, 2016 at 14:10:03
Steve O
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Mike: Recall we had this same discussion over a year ago. The concensus at the time was that the gain was ~2 meas from k-g1 vs k-a. Note too that Crowhurst references 50% feedback in his discussion of the Mac circuit in an article in Audio Engineering Realistic Audio Engineering Philosophy dated 10/59. This is consistent with the gain ~2 conclusion. I've also measured the gain Va-k/Vg1-k ~< 2 which is consistent with the conclusions of that discussion. Maybe I measured incorrectly so why not meas one of your Macs and we can compare notes.

FWIW, I believe the term "Unity Coupling" refers to the coef of coupling betw the various primary windings achieved in part thru the bifilar windings employed and not to the gain of the output stage.

Edit: check about halfway down in linked thread

 

Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on April 30, 2016 at 15:03:06
Triode_Kingdom
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In addition to the somewhat abstract opinion I posted below, it's worth noting that the most significant difference between the 'AU7 and other varieties is linearity. However, I'm pretty sure that the more feedback the circuit applies, the less significant an individual tube's linearity will be. This is yet another reason I wouldn't change out the 'AU7 in this amplifier. Not only will it devalue the amp, it's extremely unlikely you'll hear a difference. I do agree with others who are suggesting power supply modifications, and in particular the use of higher grade parts for filtering. Many improvements have been made to components like capacitors over the last 30-40 years.





 

RE: I have rebult tons of Mc30s and Mc60s and, posted on April 30, 2016 at 16:46:54
drlowmu
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Mikey,

In the photo, is the choke ( looks like the nicely inexpensive $10.00 Traid C-40X, 320 mHY at 600 mA., 10 Ohms DCR ) the first component the rectifier's output "sees", OR, is it seeing a film cap as the first device??

In other words, are you

(a) Rectifier tube, sub-critical choke, 50 uF film cap OR, are you

(b) Rectifier tube, 50 uF film cap, sub critical choke ???

Q1 : Did you try it BOTH ways above??

Q2 : If so, what did you hear / think ??

Q2 : Ever able to try L1/C1/L2/C2 in a Mac30, with Ls and Cs being EQUAL and small in value...320 mHY and 50 uF ?? Ever HEAR that ??

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on April 30, 2016 at 19:38:26
Eli Duttman
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Using a 12BH7 in place of the 12AU7 requires zero wiring changes, while improving linearity. IMO, installing a 12BH7 is a "no brainer". The doubled heater draw is, as previously indicated, a non-issue.


Eli D.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on April 30, 2016 at 20:14:46
Triode_Kingdom
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I don't think so, Eli. These amplifiers are already extremely linear. The high degree of feedback that makes such performance possible completely swamps the 12AU7's native characteristics.

 

RE: I have rebult tons of Mc30s and Mc60s and, posted on April 30, 2016 at 22:40:15
Michael Samra
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I haven't tried a second choke but I am ever so grateful for your .32hy low resistance choke.Believe it or not,you can take out the 150 ohm and put the choke in its place and it raised the B+ exactly 3.1dc which is nothing but the performance gain was monumental.Doc Hoyer also uses that choke in his Mc30s and you can use it in the Mc60s he says.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on April 30, 2016 at 22:51:41
Michael Samra
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This is a simplified version of the original mac but notice how the 12bh7 already puts signal on the plate of the output tubes as well as g1 and thru the 10uf on the cathode and this is why I feel it's just swinging those existing voltages and working as a follower.
Steve
' I know we had that discussion and I still don't buy the 2 to 1 gain because of the existing voltage on the screens,G1,and the cathodes before we even insert the 6L6 tubes..I will measure again but I measure G1 ref to gnd and the plate ref to gnd and it was a drop..Measuring from the cathode it appears to have a gain but if that were the case, there would be no need to boot strap the driver because you would already gsin in the output stage..I will disable the cathode signals on the output tubes so we can leave that part out of the equation to make it more conventional..I can safely reference the dc component of the cathode just to see if it moves the voltage higher at the plate..It's just that this circuit is so difference from a conventional driver and I don't know Doc Hoyer would plainly tell me that it amplifies current and not voltage. You should give him a call.I talk to him at least once a month. I sent him some old triad chokes I had he wanted to play with.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on April 30, 2016 at 23:12:20
Michael Samra
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Jack
When you put a 6CG7 in place of the 12AU7,the difference in noticeable as the 6cg7 is more linear but not only that,distortion drops by .25% coming out of the voltage amp on measurement.What the 6cg7 is doing is keeping the distortion down and the circuit more linear the longer it is on.The 12AU7 runs awful hot in the Mac amps but it looks nice in there..The 12BH7 can give you can idea but it doesn't give the stand up difference that we get with the 6cg7.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on May 1, 2016 at 01:14:45
tesla
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Sounds interesting.

I've got a MC30 and 75. Anyone know where to d/l the rebuild for them?\




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RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 1, 2016 at 05:50:18
Steve O
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Are you aware that your attached diagram fully supports the gain ~<2 position? Notice at the bottom of the diagram just below the EL86 the notation "A=1.7/4.5dB". Clearly, 4.5dB is "gain" and is greater than 0dB. Keep in mind you must measure from a-k and g1-k for your voltages because that's consistent with the definition of gain.

Technically, the 12BH7 does not "put" signal on the plate of the output tube. The 12BH7 plate supply voltage is derived from the plate of the opposite phase output tube. This is a form of positive feedback and increases stage gain and increases effective plate supply voltage to ~>2X DC value thus greatly increasing AC voltage swing capabilities. This is what "bootstrapping" is all about

Regarding Doc Hoyer; I've spoken with him in the past (pair of custom transformer winds) and he is surely knowledgable so maybe there's a misunderstanding somewhere in your discussions with him. It may also be possible that he misunderstands the unity coupled output stage although that seems unlikely.



 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 1, 2016 at 11:47:52
Michael Samra
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Steve
There is no misunderstanding I wouldn't think because we discussed this very subject on several occasions..Give him a call and talk to him and ask him. I will try the method of measuring that I outlined in a previous post. There is signal coming off the 12Bh7 because this is why you can remove the output tubes and the amp still plays but at reduced power. I realize the signal comes in at G1 but there is signal on the plate of the 6L6 when measured with no 6l6l installed. I guess this is why there is so much controversy among so many on the circuit's operation.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on May 1, 2016 at 11:59:44
Michael Samra
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What's a D/1 the rebuild for them?
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Download (nt), posted on May 1, 2016 at 12:17:26
Eli Duttman
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Eli D.

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on May 1, 2016 at 12:42:38
Michael Samra
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Ah ok.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 1, 2016 at 13:26:54
Steve O
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What's your take on those gain numbers on the diagram you posted?

Also, if you remove the finals you've significantly altered the circuit operation to the point where the function of the 12BH7 is completely changed. In effect you're backfeeding a signal from the 12BH7 into the OPT. This won't occur to any significant extent if the finals are in place. Instead of removing the finals to determine the "contribution" of the 12BH7, remove the signal on g1 of them instead. I haven't done this myself but I suspect any signal you get is the result of leakage thru stray capacitance.

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 1, 2016 at 17:31:09
Michael Samra
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Steve
You are right.I will remove the G1 signal but that diagram is different than the later macs because of 12ax7 CF driver but at any rate it's confusing because I also did another experiment one time.
Normally the operating voltages of a 6L6gc are close to that of a 6550 in circuit in that with the Mc60 you have a plate voltage of 435 and a G1 of minus 45 to 47 volts..When I put a 6L6gc in a 6550 amp with those voltages,the 6L6gc operates fine but produces less power. When I put it in the mc60s the tube actually melted the glass on the side once I turned up the volume.Now I realize the Rp in a 6550 is lower than a 6L6gc but it tells me that the output tube is serving a different function in this case being a current amp or pulling current thru the circuit from the Dc supply ? I have never had a pair of 6L6gcs melt the glass for that short time they were in the circuit playing in other amps such as the citation 2.In that amp I did have to rebias a tiny bit.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s, posted on May 1, 2016 at 18:19:28
tesla
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Hi Mike,

Yes, I want to rebuild both my MC30's and MC 75's. If there is a download available of suggested parts, changes, etc, I'd appreciate it.



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RE: I have rebult tons of Mc30s and Mc60s and, posted on May 1, 2016 at 20:19:03
drlowmu
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There are a couple of things that are better when you did that.

First, you eliminated 140 Ohms of series resistance to the Finals, by removing a 150 Ohm series-R ( adding resistances, is always a BAD idea to the Finals ) and you replaced 150 Ohms with a 10 Ohm choke.

Yes, that will wake up the amp, dynamically, nicely.

The second thing you MAY have done is, IF you placed the 320 mHY L right after the rectifier, and had the 50 uF DC LINK Panasonic cap after the L : you went from a "C" input filter to an "L" input filter, that the tube rectifier was working into.

It is always best practice for the tube rectifier to "see" an "L" as the very first part after it. It certainly need not be " critical in inductance " either. :-)

If you hadn't done that, ( L first ) you should have, and LISTENED to that for your own edification. ( Nice 25 cent word .)

Mikey, you are AOK !!!!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 2, 2016 at 03:50:29
PakProtector
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The output stage in a Mac has gain of ~2. It is functioning just like a split load inverter. Grid to cathode voltage change is about half the anode-cathode change. If you're measuring gain any other way, it is wrong.

On the Mac, aside from PS improvements Mike has developed, the circuit needs some attention.

The PI should have a better tube than the 12AU7. It will also work better with a CCS in the tail, with its plate loads equalized.

The 12BH7 positive FB can be removed. Install CCS-es instead of the 12k plate loads. The loop of global NFB can then be removed.

Install adjustable bias onto the cathode follower grids. Fixed, fixed bias is just silly( I mean idiotic, ridiculous, stupid...foolish ). Measure idle current through the DCR of the cathode winding. While you're in there, use 12AT7 for the CF...much better than the 12AX7.

Finally, the 12AX7 can be swapped for a 12AY7. These are fantastic tubes, and the 12AX7 gain is not needed. Slight bump to the cathode resistor puts the operating point where it needs to be.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on May 2, 2016 at 05:37:33
Triode_Kingdom
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"distortion drops by .25% coming out of the voltage amp"

But does it improve performance of the amplifier at the speaker terminals? It's difficult to imagine how Mac could have missed something so simple if it reduces distortion by so much. Personally, I'm skeptical.



 

Name dropping vs. circuit analysis, posted on May 2, 2016 at 07:11:39
PakProtector
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Look at the circuit. Define the input and output voltage.

Input voltage- grid to cathode
Output voltage- anode to cathode

Gain = ~2

cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on May 2, 2016 at 12:29:39
Michael Samra
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But does it improve performance of the amplifier at the speaker terminals? It's difficult to imagine how Mac could have missed something so simple if it reduces distortion by so much. Personally, I'm skeptical.

It definitely improves it. BTW the measuremnt was .15% and not .25%.I looked at my paperwork so that was my mistake. The big improvement you get from the 6CG7 is after warmup. In the Mac amps there is a noticeable improvement. I was skeptical as you were but then I tried it after Pak Protector said do it Mikey,and I never looked back.Try it for yourself and tell us what you think but everyone that made the switch,loves it.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 2, 2016 at 13:01:42
Michael Samra
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Doug
I'm going to try the CCS in the PI being there is no balance adj.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rebuild of MC30s..., posted on May 3, 2016 at 03:05:31
PakProtector
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Drop me a note Mike, I have some boards( about 1.5 x 2") for battery biased, depletion-mode MOSFET's. They can be done smaller if you are willing to forego the battery bias...though that makes setting current with 1% setting resistors easier.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on May 3, 2016 at 03:12:07
PakProtector
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You have got to be kidding me...the 12AU7 is much cheaper.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on May 3, 2016 at 09:45:03
Triode_Kingdom
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"You have got to be kidding me...the 12AU7 is much cheaper. "

Do I understand your comment correctly? The 12AU7 was selected because McIntosh was too cheap to do better? I think it's just as likely that the 12AU7s they used were better than we know, or maybe even hand-picked at the factory. I'll never believe that an improvement of this magnitude would have been ignored by Mac. It doesn't make sense.

 

RE: Another Comment on the 12AU7, posted on May 3, 2016 at 17:04:19
PakProtector
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this coming from the same folks that brought us the 12AX7 cathode so they could be common with the input tube. You are free to believe what ever you wish about their engineers ability to dodge the bean counters. Do show me some proof of this idea of selecting 12AU7's.
cheers,
Douglas


Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

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