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Interesting Quotes ...

96.236.25.80
Posted on August 29, 2015 at 19:03:58
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Leif Johannsen - "It's surprising sometimes how much you can catch from casual listening. Eventually I'll narrow my prototypes down to two, which will measure and sound very similar to one another. But if one sounds better and the other measures better, we'll go with the one that sounds better even if we can't explain why. Audio design has come a long way, but there is still a lot we don't know."
Ortofon

If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing!
Maxim

Measurements can tell you HOW a speaker sounds - they don't tell you how GOOD it sounds!
John Atkinson

My first -and really, only- criteria when evaluating new equipment, speakers, or even potential upgrades is:
'Am I listening to music, or equipment?'
Betesda Audio

Some prefer neutral, Some prefer natural. Just wonder why neutral has so much difficulty sounding natural.
Bill K.

It's a very long way from an amplifier that works technically correct to an amplifier that captivates the listener.
Stefan Gawlick

We have come to the conclusion that everything has an influence on sound. And we have to accept that these influences are real -even if (for the moment at least) we have no scientific explanation.
Helmut Brinkmann

I suspect there are some who find the idea of neutrality more attractive than the reality.
Alan Sircom

To my experience, cost means nothing. Synergy means everything.
Tom Treitz

Don't assume that expensive is better, but don't dismiss because it's expensive.
Mike Lavigne

A rather low cost system but with wisely chosen components which match well together can be more High End than a incompetently chosen system of the 100k+ category.
Thomas Mayer

There is a mistaken belief that current flows from a power station hundreds of miles away. Not true: current oscillates back forth between the neutral and hot conductors and the current only travels a few inches at best. This is why the first six feet of power cordage from the component is important.
Caelin Gabriel

Of all the amplifiers I have reviewed, this is one of them too.
Julian Hirsch

DanL



 

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RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 29, 2015 at 19:11:08
lovetube
Dealer

Posts: 3008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Joined: June 8, 2003
 very Interesting indeed DanL.

LT

 

If, then, else, but, eh?, posted on August 29, 2015 at 21:21:49
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 I'll keep on measuring and listening as a paired tool.

And, keep my skepticism alive as well.




Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, posted on August 29, 2015 at 21:43:12
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10047
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Especially quotes. :)


 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 30, 2015 at 02:32:04
horny
Audiophile

Posts: 745
Location: holland
Joined: October 17, 2003
 very interesting Dan and so true!

 

RE: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, posted on August 30, 2015 at 03:03:00
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Don't believe science either.
They have been wrong so many times.
Earth is flat.
Man cannot fly.
Global Cooling/Global Warming/Global Climate Change.
Butter and eggs are bad for you.
CD's perfect sound forever.
Etc Etc Etc ...

DanL



 

Not ONE of those is a scientific proposition., posted on August 30, 2015 at 03:39:47
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 When you've done some more thinking, and think you know what a scientific proposition is, please post just one.

For your sake, outside of audio, just for the next few months.

I won't be holding my breath.








Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: If, then, else, but, eh?, posted on August 30, 2015 at 04:17:43
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 That makes the most sense of all. Each can add information. However, listening is easier to do for the average person, and is also the ultimate test.

 

Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 04:54:02
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 Listening and measurement are a necessary and entwined pair.

Like rights and duties are.

You regularly ask questions here about how to make things in yr latest DIY effort work, yes or no.







Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 06:34:08
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 That is what I said. Each can add information. Not sure what you are getting at.
What does me asking questions about my diy work have to do with anything? That is what this forum is for, yes or no?

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 06:49:01
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "However, listening is easier to do for the average person, and is also the ultimate test."

"You regularly ask questions here about how to make things in yr latest DIY effort work, yes or no."

I think Tim is saying that you clearly want (from time to time) to change the sound of your system.

Well, to change the sound you have to understand what's going on (technically speaking) with the circuit.

Once you start to understand what's going on with the circuit technically you might change your mind a little about listening being the ultimate test.

If you know that technically something is "wrong" but you just happen to like the sound anyway, you might realize that just because someone likes the sound of a system subjectively doesn't mean that it's "right" or "accurate" (ie: the output wave form matches the input wave form).

Tim, if I'm off base, I apologize.

BTW, just to tie this back to the other part of the thread, to understand what's going on with a circuit we use science (ie: the scientific method).

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 07:20:24
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I do not diagree with that, that is why I said both can add information. I think that measuring helps you more quickly find a problem if your ears tell you there is one. If my ears are happy why shouldn't the rest of me be?

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 09:42:52
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Let me start by saying I am going use the word "might". I'm not accusing anyone of anything.

Your ears might be happy out of ignorance and you might not know what you're missing.

If you understand the science and the math and you just build the thing right in the first place then it will sound right.

I know that's a bold statement but I'm not talking about the lowest THD (like Julian Hirsch's way of thinking. To me he has no place in a discussion of Hi-Fi), I'm talking about the lowest upper ordered HD without resorting to FB because, you see, science has learned something over the years.

A good long read of Lynn Olson would be of great value.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 10:16:16
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Science keeps learning trying
to catch up to what we hear.
If you listen to what your ears tell you
then you will always keep
a couple steps ahead of science.
Science keeps leading us down a path
that later we discover is wrong.
SS over Tubes
FB to lower distortion
CDs over Vinyl
Wrong paths advocated by science.

DanL



 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 10:40:16
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 the scientific method also applies to what we do not know... one of the greatest scientists of our time was Max Planck, a German theoretical physicist whom had an unbounded belief in God. Some Scientists put more faith in their belief in science than the average believer does in God.

It is utterly foolish to posit the whole Universe was contrived by total random chance... no design. That sort of thinking is about as silly as my saying "One of these days, a Tornado is going to blow through a junkyard and turn out a 747".

Ridiculous.

So far as science, best thing we can do is humble ourselves and simply state,
"more will be revealed if we keep looking".
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 11:19:56
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 So you wouldn't be able to hear this distortion you speak of? Seems if it was important enough to bother with you would.
There is such a thing as the designing becoming more imoportant to the designer than the music itself.
If I hear a system that sounds better than mine I will probably try to find out why, but I am not going to spend all my time chasing a dream. I would rather listen to music on a system that sounds good to me, or try breadboarding a different piece of gear.

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 11:34:05
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 So did he make those hundreds of billions of stars one at time, or did he have an assembly line? If you had any idea of just how vast the universe is you wouldn't say anything so obviously ridiculous.

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 11:43:33
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Again, I don't know what you mean by "science"

Facts told us that feedback increases the number of upper ordered distortion and that has been known for a long time.

"Norman Crowhurst wrote a fascinating analysis of feedback multiplying the order of harmonics, which has been reprinted in "Glass Audio," Vol 7-6, pp. 20 through 30. He starts with one tube generating only 2nd harmonic, adds a second tube in series (resulting in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th), and then makes the whole thing push-pull (resulting in 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), and last but not least, adds feedback to the circuit, which creates a series of harmonics out to the 81st. All of this complexity from "ideal" tubes that only create 2nd harmonic!"

It's also been known for a long time that the higher the order of the HD the more objectionable it is. It was purposed decades ago to weight the HD by the square of the order so that the numbers would better represent the annoyance factor.

I beginning to think when you say science you mean "the marketing department". Higher power, lower THD, etc....... That wasn't the best of science. They knew better at the time but wanted to sell product not made good product.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 11:56:31
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "So you wouldn't be able to hear this distortion you speak of? Seems if it was important enough to bother with you would."

If a person doesn't know what a real cello sounds like how is he going to know when a playback system is getting it right or wrong?

So the question is, do we want a system that is right or one that just sounds good to otherwise uneducated ears?

The original goal of this hobby was not subjective at all.

We want the playback to sound like the original. Not everyone knows what the original sounded like so they just go for "sounds good to me".

I have made changes to my system (known improvements according to the facts) and haven't liked the "sound" because I had become accustom to what was wrong.

But being as objective as I could, I eventually realized that the playback DID sound more like the real thing.

In the end the system that sounds more like the real thing is more enjoyable, long term, than a system that doesn't.

It's not about my or your subjective opinion. Peoples hearing gets fooled, easily, all the time. Including mine and I'm a trained, professional listener.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 12:26:59
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 I consider science as those people
who are devotees of the technical who
consider it trumps any other influence.
Or the science establishment if you will.

Yes but decades before the Norman Crowhurst paper
feedback was decried as the marvelous "cure"
for all tube amp distortion problems.
Even after the paper it was largely ignored
and was considered a heresy against the norm.
Science really dislikes being wrong.

DanL



 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 12:39:58
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Yes but decades before the Norman Crowhurst paper
feedback was decried as the marvelous "cure"
for all tube amp distortion problems."

Norman wrote that in 1959.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 12:46:48
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 OK so a decade after it was
decried as the cure all.
And how many decades before
it had any credence?
3 or 4 I would say.
Science establishment is slow
on any disruption of the norm.

DanL




 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 12:51:15
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 You lack vision ... and do not understand the word Omnipotent... gee, the word must have been invented for just such a being.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 12:51:40
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 OK then, let's put science aside and just stick with the facts.

Those facts won't help us if we don't try to understand how electronic circuits work.

So we need to be technical people if we want to achieve our goal.

Can I be technical in your eyes without being scientific? :-)

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

+1 but that is a completely different subject than audio., posted on August 30, 2015 at 13:01:03
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 30, 2015 at 13:21:02
sv572-10
 I like the quote from Thomas Meyer.

Maybe he found this wishdom because he uses the incompetent nanocrystaline silver transformers from Tribute.


 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 14:22:17
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I have attended my share of live symphony concerts and I have a pretty good idea of what the instruments should sound like. When I say it sounds good to me I am comparing it to that.
Being able to exactly reproduce a live concert is never going to happen for most of us. We do the best we can, and we live with what pleases us.

 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 30, 2015 at 15:11:06
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Fair enough.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Here's two more, posted on August 31, 2015 at 00:16:01
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 "In the world of physics we watch a shadowgraph performance of the drama of familiar life. The shadow of my elbow rests on the shadow table as the shadow ink flows over the shadow paper. It is all symbolic, and as a symbol the physicist leaves it. ... The frank realization that physical science is concerned with a world of shadows is one of the most significant of recent advances".

AND

"We have found that where science has progressed the farthest, the mind has but regained from nature that which the mind has put into nature.
We have found a strange foot-print on the shores of the unknown. We have devised profound theories, one after another, to account for its origin. At last, we have succeeded in reconstructing the creature that made the foot-print. And Lo! it is our own."


Who wrote these? Was it Will Rogers? See below:











Sir Arthur Eddington

 

The first two at least predate modern scientific method, posted on August 31, 2015 at 04:11:17
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Earth is flat. This was not universally believed
Man cannot fly. Man was planning human flight for a long time...Da Vinci even made mechanical drawings in the 1500s.

"Global Cooling/Global Warming/Global Climate Change."

Global climate change happens...geological and ice core records and evidence of Ice Ages, warm periods etc. confirm this. The real question is not IF Global climate change occurs...it most certainly does, the QUESTION is whether or not humans actually cause it.


"Butter and eggs are bad for you.
"

too much of anything is bad for you...even hifi ;-)

"CD's perfect sound forever."

I doubt the inventors really felt that way...the marketing departments; however, had other ideas...

 

RE: The first two at least predate modern scientific method, posted on August 31, 2015 at 04:41:48
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 >> The first two at least predate modern scientific method
>> Da Vinci even made mechanical drawings in the 1500s.

First you disclaim it
Then you validate it
Which is it?

>> Earth is flat. This was not universally believed

By universally do you mean everybody?
Or do you mean general concensus?
I find it hard to find anything
that EVERYBODY believes.

>> Global Cooling/Global Warming/Global Climate Change

I agree but in the 70s it was the coming Ice Age.
In the 90s it was the Ice Caps are melting.
Now it is climate change so no matter if it
rains or doesn't rain, hot or cold, snow or thaw,
tornado or hurricane or whatever is proof.
They do not want to be wrong yet are regularly.

>> Butter and eggs are bad for you

Butter -
That is when margarine was scientifically better for you.
Eggs -
Cholesterol was so bad for you but now it's good.
They never mentioned dosage until now.

>> CD's perfect sound forever.

Technical analysts were claiming that in the day.
Naysayers were deemed as stuck in the past and
could not embrace the future of audio.

DanL



 

RE: Disagree, you clearly do not understand measurement., posted on August 31, 2015 at 04:55:21
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 I use science all the time.
BUT it does NOT trump what I hear.
I have a problem with -
If it measures bad, it is bad PERIOD

DanL



 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 08:32:07
-æ-
Bored Member

Posts: 788
Joined: May 9, 2013
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 >> incompetent nanocrystaline silver transformers from Tribute.

Do you make something that's better?


If you aren't quite noticing or accepting what is really going on in the present,
but are responding based on your thoughts or feelings about what ought to be,
then you are apt to collide with what is really going on.

 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 09:05:09
sv572-10
 There are a lot manufactures who can make better.
Tango, Tamura, monolith magnetics and probebly a lot more
Even i can do it.

Its advertising talk, i have diamond glases. Are they better, of course because they are more expensive.

Btw, the transformers are to small for good frequency response or they have hugh "copper" loss.

 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 09:41:57
-æ-
Bored Member

Posts: 788
Joined: May 9, 2013
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 >>Even i can do it.

What kind do you make? Can anyone buy them?

If you aren't quite noticing or accepting what is really going on in the present,
but are responding based on your thoughts or feelings about what ought to be,
then you are apt to collide with what is really going on.

 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 11:13:32
sv572-10
 if you are interested in physics and transformer technology and have the time / and or / equipment i think you can do it yourself.

it's and old technology used over the last 100 years so there is plenty information in books and on the internet. For instance Pieter T. from Tribute-audio is a drop out student (history) with no technical background. Just had a lot of audio related jobs because he like the audio industry.

In case you not want to do that, yes i can*. But i won't do silver because that is a waste of money and even when it is not my money i won't do it because i don't want to rip off my costumers


* sent pm

 

And yet another quote!, posted on August 31, 2015 at 12:14:55
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006



!

 

RE: Interesting Quotes ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 12:32:06
-æ-
Bored Member

Posts: 788
Joined: May 9, 2013
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 It's unfortunate that you feel compelled to dismiss others who participate
in the industry. Whether or not any of your opinions reflect reality, it
becomes particularly problematic when you don't disclose your own interests
before making negative comments about other people and / or their work.

Before posting, again, please be so kind as to return to your profile and
correct it to accurately reflect your role in the business. Thank you.

If you aren't quite noticing or accepting what is really going on in the present,
but are responding based on your thoughts or feelings about what ought to be,
then you are apt to collide with what is really going on.

 

You can no longer post here until ..., posted on August 31, 2015 at 13:24:59
The Bored
Bored Member

Posts: 2996
Joined: July 28, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 ... you correct your registration to reflect your role in the industry. Thank you for your cooperation.

Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...

 

RE: And yet another quote!, posted on August 31, 2015 at 18:54:29
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 I agree.
The more you learn the more you can do.
BUT it does not replace listening.

DanL



 

John Curl Interview, posted on August 31, 2015 at 23:21:00
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Also, we couldn't use mylar capacitors, which are fairly efficient coupling capacitors. While mylars are fairly efficient from a size and cost point of view, we realized they have problems with dielectric absorption. I didn't believe it at first. I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could 'hear the caps' and I thought he was crazy. It's performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn't measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about? Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we're always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can't measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody.

DanL



 

RE: The first two at least predate modern scientific method, posted on September 1, 2015 at 00:59:41
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Da Vinci clearly predates modern scientific method...therefore my comment in reply to yours.

By Universal, I mean other than some medieval dark age European idea about a flat earth I don't think that many older or parallel cultures necessarily thought this. They had some other, sometimes wacky, ideas, but not necessarily that the world is flat. Magellen proved it wasn't rather convincingly, no? and that was 1518.

People looking at weather through a microscope are not to be taken seriously. Climate change over centuries is interesting but over eons is more correct. It is a fact that climate swings have become less pronounced in the last 11-12000 years (since the last Ice Ages), which has allowed for the rise of man from hunter/gatherer.

I specifically mentioned dosage because in medicine (I am a development chemist) dosage is just as important as the product itself. There can be a fine line between effectiveness and poisonous. Food is not so different in the end.

"Technical analysts were claiming that in the day.
"
Certainly not all and I am not talking about the press, who regurgitate whatever the PR guys from Philips and Sony wanted them to say, I am talkign about the engineers themselves. Do you think that they thought it was "perfect sound forever"? I somehow doubt it.

 

...and it becomes very obvious to everybody", posted on September 1, 2015 at 14:03:58
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident"

Arthur Schopenhauer

The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Just noticed this ......, posted on September 3, 2015 at 14:30:19
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 That is the typical response for someone who has been backed into a corner and can't see a way out. Try to attack the other person with non sensical comments like "you lack vision". Not believing in fairy tales isn't a lack of vision, it's just the opposite.
And what a catch all that "omnipotent" is. Anytime something seems impossible or ridiculous and you know you can't defend it, just pull that out of the closest. That's a pathetic argument and you know it.

 

RE: Just noticed this ......, posted on September 3, 2015 at 17:13:28
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 I know nothing of the kind, Vinnie.

My belief AND KNOWING that God exists is the most obvious fact in my life.

You sound like you are arguing something that you don't even believe.

In other words, the derision you display, conveys to me you don't know.

Perhaps it is as simple as you do not like the idea of being accountable for your actions.

As Dan said, you have my sympathy.

The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Just noticed this ......, posted on September 3, 2015 at 18:39:45
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 "Perhaps it is as simple as you do not like the idea of being accountable for your actions."

Oh really? And just who is it that expects God to forgive them for all their sins? Not me, that's for damn sure, because I am willing to take responsiblity for my actions.

Like I said, it amazes me how many religous people never learn the difference between believing and knowing. Just because you want something to be true does not make it so.

 

RE: Just noticed this ......, posted on September 4, 2015 at 02:21:40
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 We have all said ... why me? In exasperation with life's trials... everyone has made that statement to themselves.

My only question to you Vinnie is,

Who are You talking to?
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Just noticed this ......, posted on September 4, 2015 at 04:53:03
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 No one in particular ..... just a general lament.

 

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