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SRPP question

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Posted on March 1, 2015 at 10:53:51
cpotl
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Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009



I became curious about the use of an SRPP as an input stage. Although the name conveys the idea of push-pull operation, it only actually operates in push-pull mode with balanced signal currents in antiphase in the two tubes when driving into a load with one very specific impedance.

In the schematic appended above, I was finding in LTSpice that the signal currents are balanced in antiphase when the load R6 is about 23 Kohms. If the load is below that, the antiphase current in the upper tube is bigger than the one in the lower tube. As R6 is increased, a point is reached, at about 94.4 Kohms, where the signal current in the upper tube is very nearly zero. In fact it is then roughly like a 2nd harmonic "residual," i.e. at twice the frequency of the input signal. (The 1 ohm resistors in the schematic are for convenience for measuring the currents in the two tubes.)

When R6 is increased beyond 94.4 Kohms the signal current in the upper tube rises again, but now it is in phase with the signal current in the lower tube. Of course, in the limit of a very high impedance load the signal currents in the upper and lower tubes are very nearly equal (and in phase).

All this is well known. There is, for example, a nice discussion in an article by John Broskie (link below).

By the way, I found the output impedance (measured in the standard way by driving a signal into the output of the amplifier, and using Ohm's law) came out to be about 11.5 Kohms.

The thing that I, at least, wasn't aware of is that even when driving into the critical load where the SRPP is working in balanced push-pull mode (about 23 Kohms in my simulation), there seems to be no evidence of any cancellation of even-order harmonics. For all the load impedances I tried, the dominant distortion was second harmonic, and in all cases it was around 40dB down from the fundamental. The 3rd harmonic distortion seems to improve considerably when the load impedance is increased to be much larger than the "balanced PP" value. I was getting 3rd harmonic distortion at about 58dB below fundamental when the load was 23 Kohms, and about 75dB down by the time the load was 500 Kohms.

So I guess my question is what really are the advantages of an SRPP over any other input stage topology? It certainly doesn't appear to shine particularly when it is actually operating in balanced PP mode. And although the 2nd harmonic distortion seems to be more or less uniformly unimpressive over a wide range of load impedances, the 3rd harmonic distortion seems to be very considerably reduced if one runs it into a high-impedance load for which there is really nothing "push-pull" at all about its operation.

Of course, the results for distortion that I was getting must be quite dependent on the accuracy of the tube modelling for the Spice simulation, but I suppose they would be likely to be reasonably indicative of what one might find in practice. The absence of 2nd-harmonic cancellation when operating at the "balanced PP" load is unlikely to be just an artefact of the model, I imagine.

Chris

 

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RE: SRPP question, posted on March 1, 2015 at 11:52:23
Caucasian Blackplate
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"So I guess my question is what really are the advantages of an SRPP over any other input stage topology?"

You'll have to pardon my cynicism, but if you have a pair of single ended tube monoblocks, and a dual triode driver tube, SRPP gives you a way to use the second half of the driver tube. (See page 11 of the article)

 

RE: SRPP question, posted on March 1, 2015 at 13:24:00
vinnie2
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If you have access to the back issues of Sound Practices magazine, take a look at Bruce Berman's article in issue 13 on his 76 based preamp. He decided to not use the other half of the driver tube for reasons he explains in the article. Not everyone thinks the SRPP is a good idea.
Now to play devil's advocate for my own post, I have built and used both Berman's 76 preamp (no SRPP) and Gordon Rankin's Bugle 45 amp (also in issue 13 of SP) which does use a SRPP driver. I never found any issues with either one. I guess it depends on the designer and what they are trying to do.

 

Bypassing Rk1, posted on March 1, 2015 at 13:49:56
Lew
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Years ago there was an article in Glass Audio that made a strong argument for NOT bypassing Rk1 (Rk on the lower valve section), having to do with equalizing current flow through both top and bottom halves of the SRPP. I cannot recreate it chapter and verse, but here is another reference that does discuss the SRPP in detail and does also end up with unbypassed Rk1 as optimal. This author also talks about how to select Rk. In reading Broskie on SRPP, it seemed he never looked at the bypass issue; all his schematics show Rk1 bypassed by a capacitor, if I recall correctly.

 

RE: Bypassing Rk1, posted on March 1, 2015 at 14:28:44
cpotl
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Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"Years ago there was an article in Glass Audio that made a strong argument for NOT bypassing Rk1 (Rk on the lower valve section), having to do with equalizing current flow through both top and bottom halves of the SRPP."

Bingo! I've just tried it in the simulation, and that makes a huge difference, in the case when the load is tuned to the value that balances the antiphase currents in the two tubes. It looks like the 2nd harmonic can now become highly suppressed (80 or 90 dB down on the fundamental) if the load is tuned carefully enough. Of course this may be unrealistically good, since the simulation is a bit idealistic, but nonetheless it does show that there is a cancellation phenomenon now.

But it does, however, depend crucially on have the load impedance exactly right. I'll play around a bit more...

Chris

 

Seldom Needed, posted on March 1, 2015 at 14:49:56
Triode_Kingdom
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There have been several in-depth discussions on this topic here. Not only does the SRPP require a specific load Z to work in push-pull, that load is typically much lower than is practical for our use. That limits the SRPP to applications in which greater voltage handling is desirable, and/or a greater output voltage swing. It operates as a single ended totem pole under these conditions, not SRPP.

Below is a link to one of the earlier discussions. Search for SRPP under my name and you'll find more.





 

Power, posted on March 1, 2015 at 15:48:38
Paul Joppa
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The advantage of, and reason for, SRPP is to get twice the SE current variation at the same voltage output, hence twice the power. Works like push-pull except the output transformer impedance is half the SE impedance, or 1/4 the normal P-P, and it's a single winding (no need for a center tap with balanced windings).

The precision load means you get this advantage into a resistor load, but not so much into a loudspeaker load.

 

RE: Seldom Needed, posted on March 1, 2015 at 16:24:58
cpotl
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Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"There have been several in-depth discussions on this topic here. Not only does the SRPP require a specific load Z to work in push-pull, that load is typically much lower than is practical for our use...

Below is a link to one of the earlier discussions. Search for SRPP under my name and you'll find more."

Thanks for the link. I'm embarassed to find that I actually participated briefly in that earlier discussion, but had somehow missed some of what was covered in the rest of the thread! My only excuse is that the dates coincided with my annual migration back to Texas from the UK.

After a quick skimming of that thread, I notice that the issue of what difference the bypassing of the cathode resistor makes to the behaviour was addressed. Perhaps my experiments in Spice today added just a little more to that; indeed, spurred by Lew's remark about omitting the bypass capacitor, I found also that it didn't change the "critical" load impedance values much. But I did find an enormous difference in the distortion figures, and especially, the quite impressive cancellation of the 2nd harmonic distortion at the critical value of load impedance that balances the antiphase tube currents, but *only* if the cathode resistor is not bypassed. (I just noticed that Lew's ValveWizard article mentions this too.)

Just one other question: Even though the load impedance required for balanced push-pull operation is unaturally low from the point of view of the kind of impedance the next stage in a tube amp would normally present, might it be that giving the SRPP such a low, and precisely adjusted, load might make sense? It does look as if the distortion could become a lot less under such conditions.

Chris

 

RE: Seldom Needed, posted on March 1, 2015 at 21:08:57
Triode_Kingdom
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Location: Central Texas
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Sure, I think any technique that reduces distortion is worth pursuing, all else being equal. The question is, how to deal with the loss of voltage gain that results from driving a low impedance load with a "proper" SRPP? I seem to remember that these were invented in order to drive cables, i.e. 75-100 ohms. In most intermediate stages, that would amount to a significant voltage loss. Maybe the SRPP has potential as a high end triode power stage with a custom OPT...

Texas, eh? You must get really homesick between visits. I've lived all over the place, from the East Coast to the West, even China for a year. Nothin' beats Texas! :)

 

RE: Bypassing Rk1, posted on March 2, 2015 at 05:32:57
Naz
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Chris, I'm not seeing it. Removing the cap seems to improve the entire spectrum in line with the NFB it provides. Also when you increase the input signal to compensate for the lower gain, 2ndH is not much better.

What I do see is a vast improvement in high order distortion by unloading the OP as expected.

Naz

 

RE: Bypassing Rk1, posted on March 2, 2015 at 05:56:15
cpotl
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Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"Chris, I'm not seeing it. Removing the cap seems to improve the entire spectrum in line with the NFB it provides. Also when you increase the input signal to compensate for the lower gain, 2ndH is not much better."

I find that with the bypass capacitor removed, it is possible to make a very fine tuning of the load resistor that gives a very great reduction in the 2nd harmonic. A bit either side, and the 2nd harmonic distortion is much higher. 3rd harmonic shows no particular dip around that load impedance, of course. In fact 3rd harmonic and above seems to get better as the load impedance becomes large.

In my case, even after increasing the input signal to compensate for the reduced gain, I get figures like:

24K load: 2nd -95dB, 3rd -61dB, 4th -96dB

Infinite load: 2nd -52dB, 3rd -86dB, 4th --

But actually, that 24K critical load has to be very closely fine tuned to get the very low 2nd harmonic distortion. (In my case, it optimised at about 23.96K.)

I'm sure such low 2nd harmonic distortion is unrealistic, since the two tubes in the simulation are identical, etc. But it does illustrate the point that a fine balancing is possible. (But no evidence of such a balancing if the bypass cap is there.)

Chris

 

RE: Bypassing Rk1, posted on March 2, 2015 at 07:57:51
Lew
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Location: Bethesda, Maryland
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For what it's worth, back then I built an 807 PP amplifier with an SRPP input stage using a 6SN7. I listened to it with vs without Rk1 bypass, and it sounded much better without, which became the permanent topology.

 

RE: SRPP question, posted on March 3, 2015 at 15:43:00
hifipaul
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Posts: 735
Location: NY
Joined: December 22, 2008

You might end up trying and listening to SRPP circuits and comparing them to other types. I find them to be somewhat hard sounding. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't.

If you play with SRPPs, consider using a choke for R2 (with the same DCR). Sonically it's better to me than a resistor. There was an article in VTV about this some time ago.

 

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