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power supply vs sound?

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Posted on February 23, 2015 at 05:35:57
vinnie2
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 Wondering what everyone thinks about how much the power supply effects the actual signature of an amps sound? I have read often that it is one of the most important links in the audio chain, but I am wondering if it would effect the sound of an amp more than say the type of output tube used?

 

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RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 06:20:11
drlowmu
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Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
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 Goodness, yes, any tube on the output stage, AND preceeding stages, needs to be supplied "the goodies", on demand, to perform at its best potential. If you choked the air supply off, between one of two Mezzos, which would be able to sing AIDA ( as in I eatta pizza pie ) the best ??

In the end, we all listen to a modulated power supply, how good is yours ??

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 07:16:07
FenderLover
 Jeff,

You like tangent descriptions, eh? lol!

I agree, a well-designed, consistent PSU is a required start for any unit.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 07:46:08
RPMac
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 There are many very good engineers that have given us a lot of very "well-designed" audio equipment. I would bet that most that read here, believe that "well-designed" sound is sterile and irritating...or they wouldn't be here.

In the end, all that matters is when each of us sits down to listen TO THE MUSIC, it sounds real and we like it.

 

not the question I asked guys......., posted on February 23, 2015 at 08:40:43
vinnie2
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 I appreciate the replies, but no one addressed the real question.
I know a good psu is important, but what I am really wondering is do you think the psu would have more effect on how an amp sounds than what output tube is being used? In other words if you used the same really good psu for three set amps (just tweaking the B+ to fit) with different output tubes would you hear a big difference between them if everything else was equal?

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 08:46:20
Tre'
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 I disagree with your premise.

Just because a unit is made from a known brand and looks good doesn't mean it's well designed.

Most gear is designed to a price point and is not designed according to known good practice.

It's easy to build audio gear that is better designed than many brand name examples. But that's not gonna happen if we abandon know science.

As for "all that matters", that depends on one's goal. Many times I have made improvements in my system that I didn't like. Only after time did I realize that I was wrong and the system does sound more like the real thing. It's easy to get used to the sound of a system (and like it) that is in fact wrong.

The only way I know to check if a audio system is doing it's job correctly is to listen to live unamplified music as often as possible and use that sound as the reference.

Some people don't care if the sound is correct, they just want a sound that's pleasing to them.

Different strokes.....

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Certainly would expect it to in a SET amp..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 08:51:01
Ivan303
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 as the PS is part of the so-called, signal path.

So-called as some seem to claim that only components that are in 'series' with the signal path are in the signal path and those in parallel to said series signal path are somehow not.

And it's interesting that a fair amount of effort is made to either deal with the PS one way or the other or, in the case of 'Utrapath' reduce the influence somewhat. Suspect that 'parafeed' reduces the effect as well, certainly seems to reduces noise, at least in my experience.

Let the screams and shouts begin!





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "no one addressed the real question"..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 08:51:29
Ivan303
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 Why is this NOT surprising?

Why oh why?


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

+1 (nt), posted on February 23, 2015 at 08:55:43
Tre'
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 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

+1, SET is the type easy to expose the quality of the PS section. (nt), posted on February 23, 2015 at 09:37:22
bouncy ball
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 .

 

RE: "no one addressed the real question"..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 10:07:05
vinnie2
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 I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that, but I keep hoping .....

 

RE: Certainly would expect it to in a SET amp..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 10:13:34
vinnie2
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 Then if you used the same really good psu for three set amps (just tweaking the B+ to fit) with three different output tubes you might not hear much difference between them if everything else was equal?

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 10:55:30
TimeConstant






Maybe this post will answer one aspect of your question.

I had asked myself this very same question, whether changes in Power Supply configuration would render an audible difference, so I did something about it years back and created a tube rectified Preamp with a switched Regulated and Un-Regulated filter section.

To this day I still enjoy this Preamplifier, although the motorized volume control stopped working :(

My DIY effort was a bit odd, as I started with an old NOS military potted power transformer with some unusual secondary voltages.
After some brainstorming and a few calculations I came up with a design that used dual 12X4 rectifiers.

The preamp circuit was Aikido 6SN7 based with the PC board stuffed for a +300VDC supply, and a floating 6.3 Volts AC supply for the four 6SN7 tubes.

The rectifier filaments were connected to a 10 VAC secondary winding to light up the two 12X4 filaments, as the primary was 115VAC and the capacity was 3 amps, the filaments settled in at 11.5 VAC when the section was loaded.

What makes this Preamp unique was the implementation of a 3P3T toggle switch to switch between a CLCRC supply that used a series resistor and series shunt OC2 gas regulators or a simple CLCRC Regulated supply with a resistor.

At the flip of a switch I can go from a OC2 Regulated +300V Supply to an plain un-Regulated 290-310 VDC supply (depends on where the 120VAC mains is on any particular day or moment).

The sound of the Aikido Preamp changes dramatically when I switch between Regulated and Un-Regulated, and not only I can hear the difference, but my fellow music lovers who have enjoyed this Preamp have heard a difference.

The differenced in sound?

Un-Regulated sounds softer, rounder, much more ambience with less defined lower registers. It sounds much more like music to me, but not as good when I play aggressive source material like Rock or Techno Pop. Classical music is wonderful as well as the softer smooth Jazz genres.

Gas OC2 regulation sounds much more robust and pushed forward, with better overall definition and attack though the uppers have less bloom and air around the notes. Speech is more intelligible when watching DVD movies in the OC2 Regulated mode but my 53 old ears can’t speak much more to this as my hearing is not as good anymore.

So I can say that the same base Power Supply with regulation added can sound different when switched between two power supply sections that each have a different series DC dropping resistor value and a pair of series OC2 Gas regulated tubes.

The different series dropping resistors are necessary to compensate for the extra current draw from the HV secondary winding when I flip on the OC2's.

This also may have something to do with the Preamp amp sounding tighter or stiffer when regulated, but also the noise floor is not a dark or quiet as it is when I flip the regulators out of the circuit. Likely has to do with the regulators having some noise performance drawbacks.

My gut feeling has always been that most all Tube Power Amps don't use or have regulated B+ hence they will really benefit from a Choke input power supply design, but this is just a loose opinion from having experimented with Choke input type HV power supplies, I really need to build a Power Amp that implements real HV regulation to see what the effects are on the sound. This can become expensive with Tubes and a design effort with Solid State regulators.

Somehow I think that part of the clique tube amp sound comes from the general implementation of Un-regulated B+ and smaller size caps with Tube Rectifiers.

My ears seem to prefer Diode Rectifiers on Power Amps as punchier sounding than tube rectifiers.

Using large value power supply capacitors in my experience helps stiffen up the sound.

My DIY Dynaco ST-35 uses 200uF/200uF and a 80uF at the end, definitely helps the sound I get more depth than with the stock Dynaco values.

But crazy large supply Caps don't seem to help past a certain point, of course not with tube rectifiers that have limits. Diodes must handle the inrush better.

Attached is my diagram.... great question, I hope to have addressed some aspects here.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 10:57:48
TimeConstant



Diagram did not upload...second try.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:10:32
TimeConstant



I don't think I know how to upload an image.. (figures ...)

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:12:52
vinnie2
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 Actually the real question I am asking is which has the greater effect on the signature sound of an set amp, the power supply or the type of output tube. I think it is pretty well established that the power supply is a very important part of an amp, but i have yet to find anything that says which is most likely to effect the overall sound more, the type of output tube or the power supply.
Very interesting experiment you did. I guess one of these days I will have to try a regulated power supply in an amp just to see if I can here the difference you did.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:14:49
JKT
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 I will probably regret weighing in on this; however, there is an old saying "Horses for courses". You ask a very general question but do not specify the topology of the amp (SET, PP class A, AB1 ?). Different topologies place different demands on the PS. I think you are trying to take a short cut by polling the forum instead of doing the research and hearing first hand the differences for yourself.

A good place to start would be to listen to the difference between a choke input supply and a cap input supply. Then there's the question: to regulate or not, and if yes series or shunt regulation? Believe me there are sonic differences with these different approaches. Those differences will also depend on the type of circuit they are supplying. Don't expect to find some" magic bullet" that will relieve you of doing the research and the work of listening for yourself.


"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt." A. Lincoln

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:18:11
danlaudionut
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 I am staying out of this because
I have already stated my stance.
Also I assume it is a follow up on
my and TKs earlier thread.

DanL



 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:27:59
TimeConstant
 This is tricky to answer, unless a Power Supply has been designed with very little headroom, with the most economical possible parts, with slim margins on resistor dissipation, slim capacitor voltage ratings and not implement a Choke filter to save$.

My experience with DIY tube and OEM tube products are that given a solid Power Supply design that follows good design practice, tube quality will have a bigger effect on the overall sound produced (if we set aside the circuit topology).

But the quality of the Output Transformer also comes into play as a third element.

Else why do people worship Telefunken's and Tango's and pay extra for premium tested tubes if normal type tubes could be elevated to the same level of performance by a great power supply design with no costs barred or a Edcor/Hammond made little difference than a Bartolucci or a Magnequest.

I go for the Output Transformers first, then the Tubes, then Power Supply.


 

Your images showed up in all posts., posted on February 23, 2015 at 11:56:05
Tre'
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 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Certainly would expect it to in a SET amp..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 13:37:52
RC Daniel
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Posts: 1922
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 No. The PSU is of significant importance, but there are other factors that matter.

We can certainly learn much from reductionist thinking, but when we are building systems, stystems thinking seems more appropriate.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: not the question I asked guys......., posted on February 23, 2015 at 13:55:00
deathtube 667
 " In other words if you used the same really good psu for three set amps (just tweaking the B+ to fit) with different output tubes would you hear a big difference between them if everything else was equal?"

The distortion profile of the amp can change just from tube rolling different final tubes of the same type, not to mention different completely different finals with alternate drive requirements.

You can see this sort of thing on a PC spectrum/distortion analyzer.

What your ear can or can't hear as far as a change in something is completely up to you to decide.

Absent getting into measurement applications, you are left to your ears.

IMO/IME, having some balance between measurement and ears seems to be the way to go.



 

...or they wouldn't be here. Absolutely Not!, posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:07:13
Chip647
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 I am here because there is no way that I could afford the equipment I make if it was offered commercially. What I can build myself for $2,000 would take +$10,000 if purchased from a boutique dealer.

However, if you are saying that the latest chip amp is "well-designed" and vacuum tube amps are poorly designed, I think you are a bit absurd.

 

RE: Certainly would expect it to in a SET amp..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:09:11
cpotl
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 "...as the PS is part of the so-called, signal path.

So-called as some seem to claim that only components that are in 'series' with the signal path are in the signal path and those in parallel to said series signal path are somehow not."

I've heard people sometimes saying that the power supply is "in parallel" rather than "in series" with the signal path, but I'm never sure what they mean. If you trace the AC signal current that flows through the output tube of a standard SET amplifier, it then flows into the primary of the output transformer, comes out of the other end of the primary, flows through the power supply (i.e., almost exclusively through the output capacitor), comes out of the power supply and then back into the output tube via the cathode resistor, thereby completing the closed loop. The power supply is really just as much "in series" with the signal path as the output tube itself is.

Chris

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:30:22
vinnie2
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 You obviously did not read the entire thread. I stated in another post below that I specified a set amp and that all other things were to be equal. I am not trying to take a short cut as I have done the bread boarding and the listening and I could not really hear much difference between the set's with different output tubes on the amps I was bread boarding. Since then I have read many places how important the psu is to overall sound and it occurred to me that on the amps I was bread boarding I was using the same psu (a good one designed with psud2) and that the outputs were the same also. So I decided to see who thinks the psu (and the opts) might have more to do with the sound of an set amp than the output tube. It appears that perhaps some might think it does.
Next time please read a little further before jumping to conclusions.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:33:19
vinnie2
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 But what about the TYPE of tube? 300B vs 2A3 vs 45 etc? That is my real question.

 

RE: not the question I asked guys......., posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:39:52
vinnie2
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 But what will be the final deciding factor? Your ears. I see measurement being most useful for helping you find out why something doesn't sound right, or perhaps for some final tweaking if you wish.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 14:44:59
vinnie2
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 Not entirely Danl. I have read quite a few things here and elsewhere on the net that made me think it was worth asking for some more opinions about the whether the psu or the tube type might have the greatest influence on the "sound" a given amp has.

 

Well Said~nT, posted on February 23, 2015 at 15:11:07
Cleantimestream
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 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: "really good psu", posted on February 23, 2015 at 15:15:20
Ivan303
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 But what's a 'really good psu'?

Tube? Semiconductor? Fast recovery semiconductor?

Me? I'm partial to tubes, with Mercury Vapor rectifiers or Damper Diodes, or better still, a combination of BOTH in a bridge configuration.

Tube regulation? No regulation? LCLCLC? CLCCL?

Perhaps one could build a 'really good psu' with any and all of the above, given proper care.

And all things being equal, they might all sound GOOD as well as different.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 15:46:24
danlaudionut
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 Vinnie

Two threads down I made the assertion
that tubes are the most important factor.
TK I think dissagrees because he likes to.
You cannot get a Chevette to perform like
the Viper no matter how much you modify it.
You cannot get an EL84 to sound like a KT88.
And vice versa is also true.
There are many other contributing factors but
tube choice is the major factor on amp sound.

DanL



 

if it would effect the sound of an amp more than say the type of output tube used?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 16:12:06
richardl
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 IMO yes. a well regulated power supply makes the tube dramatically more linear according to ARTA. You can certainly hear the difference.

Circuit design outweighs tube type for similar tubes IMO. Choose a linear triode and you can make a good sounding circuit. Choose a bad circuit and it is just yuck.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 16:30:31
drlowmu
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 Yes, in the end, we are all listening to a modulated power supply !!

How good is your design and wiring ??

Jeff Medwin

 

Question too general., posted on February 23, 2015 at 16:43:29
gusser
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 Of course the power supply has influence on how an amp sounds. And depending on how deficient the power supply is, it may or may not have more influence than the tubes or circuit topology used.

But building a good stable power supply is mature engineering. Even by just copying classic proven designs one can be assured the power supply isn't a sonic deficiency to the amplifier.

Just follow standard proven engineering principles. They work for the world at large. Yes you can use the power supply to produce certain sonic colorations but IMO, that's not the intended function of a power supply.

 

Dollar for dollar..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 18:00:29
JJ Triode
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 ...in a DHT SET amp, I would say you would definitely get more value by putting extra money into the PS (PT, choke(s) and film or better yet, oil caps) than by putting the same extra money into expensive driver and output tubes. This is assuming every part is of at least reasonable quality to start with. Of course it all matters, but with rare or exotic tubes you get into diminishing returns rather quickly, IMO. Putting just a couple hundred more dollars into the power supply is likely going to provide substantial audible (and measurable!) benefit.

It is a little less clear with PP amps with feedback, but for me, cleaning up the PS would still take precedence over buying "better" tubes. There are some really good values out there with tubes, but transformers in particular can hardly be cheap and good at the same time.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 18:36:51
vinnie2
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 Thanks for that Danl; at last an honest, straight forward opinion. I really appreciate it.
I must admit I am intrigued by all this and am hoping to gain a bit more knowledge in my search. I can remember 10 years or so ago I went on a bread boarding campaign that lasted for months and I put together at least 4 or 5 different set amps with different output tubes. They were all different designs then with different power supplies and at that time I thought they all sounded different; I assumed it was because of the output tubes, that each one had it's own signature sound. Lately I am not so sure. The fact that I have been using a very similar power supply and the same opts for different amps and they sound similar in many ways has me puzzled. The one that really threw me was when I ran an el84 in triode mode as an se amp and could not tell that much difference when I AB'd it with another of my se amps. I hope to find the answer before I am done. Perhaps my older ears are playing tricks on me; that is one thing I will have to check out before I am finished.
Thanks again for your honest reply; I obviously still have some research to do.

 

RE: Question too general., posted on February 23, 2015 at 18:47:23
vinnie2
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 I don't know how I could phrase it anymore specifically than I did; all other things being equal, would the design of the power supply or the type of tube have the largest effect on the sound of an amplifier?

 

RE: "really good psu", posted on February 23, 2015 at 18:48:55
vinnie2
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 And all other things being equal perhaps they might all sound good and similar?

 

+1~nT, posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:23:53
Paul Joppa
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 Nt

 

Nope..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:25:14
Ivan303
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 If designed well with good parts selection, they 'MAY' all sound pretty good, but not necessarily the same.

But perhaps you need to build a number of power supplies and decide what you like.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:41:40
Triode_Kingdom
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 He didn't jump to conclusions. I was thinking exactly the same thing, but I didn't say it due to our previous head butts. No one can answer this question for you, but you'll get a lot of opinions from people who think they can.

 

RE: Dollar for dollar..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:42:49
Eli Duttman
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 In ALL electronic setups, regardless of technology and/or topology, the PSU is the foundation upon which the entire edifice is built. You can't get good results from a mediocre PSU. A quality PSU is a necessary, but insufficient, condition for a satisfactory, let alone a superior, result.

What constitutes a quality PSU is a matter of constant bickering, on this "board". My preference is for low impedance/high current. "Different strokes for different folks."


Eli D.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:48:26
elblanco
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 If you happen to be lured into drlowmu's "windowless van" make sure the back doors stay open at all times.

 

The power supply is about 80% of it., posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:06:41
Michael Samra
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 Vinnie
An amplifier is nothing more than a DC power supply that we modulate with an AC signal..Look at an amplifier and tell me the biggest parts you see. A power transformer and a huge set of filter caps especially in a solid state amplifier.
The idea is to get the power supply to produce the purest DC voltage at the lowest impedance that we can along with delivering enough energy to supply the load which in this case would be the tubes or amplifying devices.
So if you ask does the power supply influence the sonic footprint of the amp? Absolutely and this is why Mr McShane always stresses the power supply when you want to rebuild a Citation or a Mac amp to sound better than it ever did from day one,improve the power supply purity and energy delivery from that power supply.
The type of tubes and circuitry also influence the sonic footprint but it's nothing without the power supply.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:07:45
Michael Samra
Dealer

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 Ditto
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:39:20
DAK
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 I think your analogy is somewhat flawed. I would compare the different tubes to say different tires on a car. With wider tires equating better performance like KT88 and narrower tires less performance like EL84. The engine to the car is the constant like the power supply. Upgrading the engine can increase performance as any car enthusiast knows. Likewise any tube amp circuit will be limited by its electronic engine or its power supply. regards, Dak

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:42:13
danlaudionut
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I designed and built a SE amp that would
take anything from a 6L6GC to KT88.
I tried them all and like the Genelex 6L6GC
and TungSol KT66 best of all (see link).

DanL



 

RE: The power supply is about 80% of it., posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:44:22
hahax@verizon.net
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 Agreed, the power supply is the amp. It's unfortunate that it's easy to skimp on the power supply and still produce very good specs for advertising. It's a rare commercial amp that really has a good enough power supply that's really large enough to handle transients or that really produces the smooth DC that is desirable. But power supplies are very costly and when you can't show superior numbers for the ad men we get what we've been getting.

It's interesting that the latest Soulution amplifier review in TAS cited significant sonic improvements and the main change was a much larger power supply, a ridiculously large one, by the way, compared to almost anything I've heard of.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 23, 2015 at 20:54:00
danlaudionut
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 Sorry
The tires transfer power from engine to road so
it would equate to the OPT (tube to speaker).
I realize the PS is the flavor of the moment
but in reality, which will settle in eventually,
it will return to the supporting role it always was.
Power supply is like the carburetor/fuel injector
which can limit performance but can never make
the performance better than the engine (tube).
No Replacement for Displacement.

DanL



 

No disrepect here Vinnie, posted on February 23, 2015 at 21:23:36
bouncy ball
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 If you cannot tell the different between a triode wired EL84 amp vs a true triode single ended amp, I think there is something wrong with your system.

 

RE: The power supply is about 80% of it., posted on February 23, 2015 at 22:20:31
FenderLover
 You'll find some of the most desired vintage amps have the best iron and PSU setups.

 

RE: No disrepect here Vinnie, posted on February 24, 2015 at 02:57:43
vinnie2
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Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 One question; have you done the experiment I have described? That is use the same psu and opts and just tweak the voltages to fit the output tube you are using, then try another output tube in se mode. If you haven't, I suggest you do so. I think you will be surprised by how similar they sound.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:00:41
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Now for the $64k question...... did you find that they sounded similar in many respects or did you find major differences between them. Also, did you do any A/B testing against other SE amps at the same time?
Opps, just read your attachment. Have you tried this experiment with triodes? I am curious if your results would be similar.

 

RE: +1~nT, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:03:25
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Paul
Did you read my reply to JKT's post? If you did, what part did I leave out that you are +1 ing?

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:08:55
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 He jumped to the conclusion that I had done no work myself in trying to figure this out, and I have, lots of it. I do not expect someone to answer this for me, I asked for opinions. Apparently a lot of people are unwilling to give their opinion in a straight forward manner. Perhaps they are afraid of people thinking they are wrong or uninformed. I don't think anyone should have to worry about that as the whole purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas and information and learn from each other. If all we do is stick to one path we will miss a great number of other possibilities.

 

RE: Nope..., posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:11:59
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Been there done that, and that is what started this whole thing. I have noticed way more change in the sound of amps when they had different opts and psu's than when the only difference was the output tube type. Made me wonder just which one was effecting things the most.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:43:07
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 Vinnie

I barely had enough money for that amp.
I have a wine taste on a beer budget.
I had a PP EL34 amp at the time and
I never played it again after heard this.
Soon sold it because I was spoiled by SE.
I dream someday of a 300B or 845 build ...
I have designed many for others
but never built one for me.

DanL



 

RE: if it would effect the sound of an amp more than say the type of output tube used?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:45:27
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Thanks for a straight up opinion. I appreciate it.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:52:35
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Sounds like our budget constraints are similar. That's why i am always trying to get more info on the best place to spend what little I have to play with.
I think you would like the 300B. Even when I only had 125ese opts on it mine sounded good. Now on the bread boarded 91A I have sprung for some better chokes (Hammond 300mA units) and filter caps (obbligato) and I have a pair of magnequest FS030's on it. Best amp I have been able to put together so far.
You could build a 300B for not a lot of money using JJ 300B's (I really like mine), 125ese's and military surplus iron from some hamfests. The 91A in SP issue 1 is a great unit. I used psud2 to come up with a different power supply that seems to work better though.
As I said, the differences I hear are not large, but they are there. It just depends on how much money you want to spend chasing that last 5%.

 

RE: The power supply is about 80% of it., posted on February 24, 2015 at 03:57:26
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Thanks Michael, I appreciate your opinion. It's those kind of statements that got me asking the questions I did. I have read similar ones elsewhere.

 

RE: Your images showed up in all posts., posted on February 24, 2015 at 04:55:52
TimeConstant
 Oh,,, I did not see them. Thanks, next time I will wait 5-10 minutes after I post.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 04:58:12
TimeConstant
 I would myself not try to compare between types, there are just too many variables involved.

I would say that comparing let's say 300B's in the same exact amplifier and operating conditions would yield some interesting results.

 

yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 06:23:48
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003



About three years ago, I came up the conclusion about power supply, it is heavy, it is expansive to build. it is difficult to get good parts. another question is why everyone time I build something, I have to build a power supply.
Here is my solution, I built a mono block power supply, each has two rectifier tubes // together, it is tube voltage regulated, it allows me to adjust the B+ range from 260V to 450V, capable to handle 250ma current draw each. Each block has a multiple filament voltage selection; 2.5v, 4v, 5v. two 6.3v. of course the whole thing is heavy as hell.
Now every time when I build something, I just need to concern on the signal section, from SET to PP, I can use the same power supply.
Ok to answer your question, I have one pair of SET, accept 300b and PX25 tube, the output tube socket is from Yamamoto which accept two different tubes, as a result I use same driver tubes, same b+, I can plug two different output tubes by flipping the a switch, change the output tube's cathode resistor. Of course, another switch to change the filament voltage as well.
Under this circumstance, driver tubes are identical, same OPT, even B+ is identical, only difference is the output tube, one is WE reissue 300b, one is vintage Osram PX25, the operation point of both tubes are very similar but the sound is so different, two different character.
attached is my system, at the back is the power supply, it has a umbilical cord to the signal section.

 

same power supply feeding my PP amp, posted on February 24, 2015 at 06:31:26
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003



this is one thing I'll suggest you, build a "universal" power supply.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 06:50:07
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1465
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
 Power supplies definitely affect the sound of an amp. All of us generally agree with that statement in the previous posts.

PP amps cancel AC ripple by design vs SET amplifiers. The power supply AC ripple to the power tube section should be lower with SET amps. I do not want to modulate high levels AC ripple.

Quality component selection is important for all power supplies regardless of the amplifier design.

I use the following components

1) Film type capacitors with the exception of electrolytic type for a fixed bias supply. Some DIYers prefer paper/oil caps. Modern motor run capacitors are film type. I do not use motor run caps due to the large physical size. Vishey manufactures compact polypropylene type capacitors.

2) Low noise SS rectifier. UF4007 or better yet modern CREE capacitors are best. I left tube rectifiers years ago. However if a tube rectifier is a must I used damper type rectifiers for a low voltage drop (better regulation). I prefer a SS bridge rectifier that is more efficient regarding the power transformer plus is 1/2 the PIV of a full-wave center tap design.

3) A low impedance transformer. I use transformers rated twice the current draw at the high voltage winding.

4) Low DCR choke providing 20 ohms or less with sufficient current capacity to not saturate during peak current demands. I prefer the Edcor 1HY @ 450ma 12 ohm DCR choke after an input filter cap for PP amps demanding 200ma to 250ma loads (no signal input).

I tried shunt regulated, choke input and capacitor input power supplies with 100ma to 260ma loads measured at no signal input. The shunt regulated was compared to a CLC and choke input type on a PP 45 amplifier. As unpopular as this statement may be, I heard no difference. Perhaps this is due to all designs provided excellent voltage regulation.

For the ultimate low power output SET amp I would likely use a shunt regulated PS design and ignore the high heat from the regulator that would be located at the top of chassis with a ventilated cover. Don Wright preferred shunt regulated. I do not care for series regulated designs that produced less than stellar sonics. It was like a poor sounding rectifier tube.

My favorite filter design for a 50 watt PP amp is 30uF-1HY-100uF filter section to the power tubes. I use a RC filter down stream for the phase inverter and preamp tube. 10uF poly type capacitors downstream are sufficient. The fore-mentioned CLC component values provides good voltage regulation with fast stabile recovery.

My 2 cents worth.

 

More reading material, posted on February 24, 2015 at 07:58:48
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/21/218685.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/24/241094.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/21/214863.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/6/69868.html

DanL



 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 09:10:03
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Very interesting sony, I will have to read up on shut regulated supplies as I am not familiar with them. Thanks for the posting.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 10:18:40
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1465
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
 I used an array of precision 5 watt directional zener diodes called a Transorb for the regulator. The 5 watt dissipation rating was reduced to 2.5 watts.

A CLC filter of .1uF was placed on the zener output to reduce zener switching noise. A low DCR 1HY choke and 10uF capacitor completed the CLC filter section.

An option is an array of gas regulator tubes. Gas regulator tubes are very quiet noise wise. A filter is not absolutely required on the output, however a .1uF may be installed to reduce low level 'hash' of about 10mv. Higher capacitance may result in oscillation using gas regulator tubes. Although an array of gas regulator tubes are not modern technology, failures are very rare.

Keep in mind shunt regulators are very inefficient thus I recommend a shunt regulator for low power output amplifiers.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 10:44:01
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 I think a lot of people are afraid to ask for help here.
I've been warned against it.

But then, I'm probably being absurd.

 

Still too broad for me., posted on February 24, 2015 at 11:09:19
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I just can't come up with a good answer without more specific circuit information. Could go either way in my book.

This is a perfect DIY thing to try and see.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 12:22:43
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I think that is just terrible. Please do not hesitate to ask for help as that is one of the things this forum is here for. It would be a good idea to do a search of the archives before posting to see if the question has already been covered previously, but if you can't find what you are looking for, yell "damn the torpedoes", and ask away!

 

RE: yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 12:33:27
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Funny you should mention that......
several years ago I thought about making modular components for amp building; psu, opts, drivers, etc. I was thinking of the ease of trying different amps.
I never did get around to trying it, but your post has me fired up again for several reasons.
As you say, it wouldn't be portable, but it might be worth it for the results. Nice work on your diy components, they look great.
I appreciate the info on your experience. It appears I am going to have to dig deeper to find out why I am not hearing a large difference as several people are now saying they did under similar conditions as mine. I would suspect my hearing except for the fact that my wife could not hear much difference between them either and she is younger than me. Could have something to do with my listening environment as it is in a large room with concrete floor and block walls. Will have to check into that too i guess.
BTW, what are those great looking speakers you have there?

 

RE: More reading material, posted on February 24, 2015 at 12:34:58
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Thanks Danl!

 

I think that basically means "Eli agrees with me...", posted on February 24, 2015 at 12:47:23
JJ Triode
Audiophile

Posts: 716
Location: Northwest
Joined: December 2, 2004
 ...but is even more vehement about the importance of the power supply. Let me put it a little differently: "upgrading" tubes is often about incremental improvements and different flavors, but PSU mods are often a night-and-day difference in sound. Of course, sometimes it is day-to-night rather than night-to-day, but that is a different question.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 13:59:40
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Now I will give my less than "0" cents worth.

A good friend who is a respected music producer in classical music and responsible for the Jadis Defy 7 MKIV modification from the MKIII has always said that what you listen to is the power supply. His thoughts and ideals that he used in his tech practice and his art of being a 4 time Grammy winner for musical production was to way over build the power supply so it is barely working on over time. Some say to build with twice the current output necessary and he builds with 10 times or the thereabouts. Maybe he's crazy or maybe he's OCD but his results are a tribute to his accomplishments in audio. He also mentioned about low impedance power supplies so I guess that's what over build means to him. I do know when I saw some of the things he built from scratch and even in his tech work, he never used over expensive parts. He used run of the mill close tolerance parts over using "boutique". He actually did a test with some boutique caps I brought over and in his amps and preamp we did some changes from what he had already installed and there was a difference. Better? Not so certain as compared to different.

To him every little sonic presentation of the right volume and right timing means something. His work is very analytical and very precise(if that doesn't mean the same thing). He is more into the little nuances and sounds that are in the music material. He is a very critical and careful listener(not that we all aren't). So as he says his equipment has to be right or no job.

Bye the way, his name is Da Hong Seetoo. He has since given up doing tech work because he is never home. His responsibilities and lack of personal time to give his all to his real passion(classical music production) and it leaves almost no time between his family as well, for doing any audio tech work. But these were his thoughts. Just passing it on!

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:17:14
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Very interesting indeed. Thanks for sharing that with us!

 

RE: yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:22:12
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Vinnie,

What is night and day to someone might not be to you. In all my years in audio and I listened to a great deal of things over the years in every aspect of the hobby. I have heard differences where others have said it was night and day and to me it was there but not night and day. I can't say what they hear but I can say what I hear and I think I am pretty good at listening critically and casually.

My friend came over and rearranged my room to fit his taste. I thought it sucked but he liked it better than what I had. I put everything back the way I had it and it was back to my taste. Same stuff, different placement(mainly speakers and wires) and it all changed for him, the better, and for me the worse.

So for someone to say that because you don't hear something, to me is not a correct statement. You hear or don't hear what someone else hears or doesn't hear. You say tomato(long "a"), I say tomato(short "a"). Who's right? You decide. Not someone else.

 

RE: same power supply feeding my PP amp, posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:24:52
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 I used the same chassis from China for my amps that were built by a friend. I like their look. Only issue I had was the amount of time they took to get here to the U.S. If I ever use them again I will order them almost 6-8 months ahead of time.

 

RE: yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:32:51
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I am curious; is it the fact that it is voltage regulated that allows you to adjust the B+? I really am thinking about doing the modular thing for my next project and adjustable B+ would be very desirable.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:34:26
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 I have been to Dan's house and personally heard his system. It is quite good and for the money he spent, he's got a huge winner. I don't think spending that much more on any one aspect of his amp or preamp would he get the kind of result that might justify the expense. I know most of you know Dan only through the Asylum and his postings. I know a lot of you are but I can say from personal experience he is a real knowledgeable person that does know what he is talking about. His disputes with others are well taken as others make good points but all I can say is that I built a few of his ideas and I have been nothing less than happy with everything he has helped me with and has created for me.

Now you can pay for this testimonial Dan(LOL). You are truly a good guy and a real mench for the hobby.(mench is a Yiddush term meaning good person, just all good things to be said about somebody).

 

RE: yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:36:19
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 I do believe that is the situation I am dealing with in my case. I think I am going to stop worrying about it and build the best psu I can and then use it to decide what tubes sound the best to me.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 14:38:44
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Well stated!

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 22:08:32
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 Excellent post.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 23:03:27
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Vinnie,

I think the end result is the sum of all the parts. Not just one part in particular. That includes the tubes used as well as what is driving the tubes, hence the power supply.

Here is another story I have when doing some modifications to an ST-70, one of my first when I entered the hobby.

I went the route of putting in gobs of capacitance after the choke, changing the coupling caps, rebuilding the bias supply, and other routine modifications that everyone was doing back in the day. Turned on the amp and I didn't like what I heard. Yes the bass was better but was it really? It was more pronounced and the mids and highs were compromised. Not knowing much about what I was doing except for the fact that I can solder and change parts I brought the amp over to my friend Ben Jacoby(New York Audio Repair in Brooklyn). He went over it with a fine tooth comb and all he could figure out was that I changed the Time Constants by over sizing the capacitance by lots of capacitance. His rule of thumb is never go more than double the original value and I went more than double the double. He proceeded to knock everything down to a more logical amount and there it was. All the sound came back. he said that these engineers of back in the day knew what they were doing and why reinvent the wheel when it works the way it is. making it more reliable is one thing but changing the character of the amp is another and inadvertently that is what I did not knowing any better.

This is where the power supply is the culprit of a bad sound no matter what tubes or brands of tube I used.

 

RE: yes, I did. , posted on February 24, 2015 at 23:08:31
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Plain and simple! The "best" power supply is one that works and is reliable. Nothing more! Nothing less!

After you get it to work then play with parts and things that might affect the sound(caps, resistors). But just get it to work first. You might just find that the plain and simple is what you were looking for.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 23:15:13
xaudiomanx
Audiophile

Posts: 3647
Joined: August 16, 2004
 Precisely what I have been saying about the "Modern" or "LSES" power supplies that Drlowmu talks about. Many have trashed it because of some power supply website that says it's wrong without even building it. I'm not saying who is correct mainly because I am not in the league of knowledge of most of you guys out there. I think most of you are brilliant people but I also think most of you are very close minded to other ideas. And that's OK if you really believe in something then just go with it.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 25, 2015 at 04:49:28
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
 Went through the same thing thing when build my first real se amp quite a few years ago.... I figured if some is good then more is better on the filter caps and doubled what was in the design. Exactly the same thing happened to me; increased bass at the cost of the upper end and mids. I haven't done that since. I may up it a bit if I think it's lacking, but not a lot, and I listen carefully for how it effects the entire amp.

 

RE: power supply vs sound?, posted on February 25, 2015 at 05:51:35
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10049
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "Many have trashed it because of some power supply website that says it's wrong"

Where is that site?

 

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