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just finished lses build

98.117.63.211

Posted on February 18, 2015 at 20:50:05
elblanco
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Why does the amp sound like my buddy's EH Scott radio? Can someone explain this?

 

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Talk to Coronadope , posted on February 18, 2015 at 21:07:32
drlowmu
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Cheap unsubstantiated shot. Oh well.

Have fun.

Jeff Medwin

 

The sound of distortion, posted on February 18, 2015 at 21:13:47
Triode_Kingdom
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"Punchy, very dynamic, fast, sounds apparently louder at any volume than before the ps mod. "

That's how most double-blind listeners described the onset of 1% distortion in tests conducted during the '70s and '80s. To most people, it simply sounds louder.



 

its more than that, it sounds cool, posted on February 18, 2015 at 22:08:52
elblanco
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The ehscott has a dynamic expander in the rig. this sounds like what I am hearing with lses amp. Is LSES just an inboard DE? Some people like the sound of them, its not real, mind you.

 

Details of the amp please., posted on February 18, 2015 at 22:29:54
RC Daniel
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Some details of the schema and photos would be helpful.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: its more than that, it sounds cool, posted on February 18, 2015 at 23:06:44
drlowmu
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Goodness. Maybe I "misread" your initial post, in which case I sincerely apologize.

When you implement a LSES supply, you "lose" the timing of the amp's traditional supply filter to the Finals, which is hardly ever in-time with the music, and gain a freedom and effortless presentation, much like live music itself. Notice Coronadope's comments on piano playback.

Its sort of like what happens when you reduce or eliminate negative feedback in a good amp, and hear the music, for the very first time, in the time of the music, not in the artificial-time of an amp.

If you can clearly post your schematic, supply and audio, all voltages and currents, as RC Daniel had asked, we can scrutinize your implementation.

Listen some and allow the soldering joints and parts to break in, takes some hours.

Have fun, its a journey.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: The sound of distortion, posted on February 19, 2015 at 06:38:29
danlaudionut
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TK

You might be on to something here.
Comb filters make things sound louder
and more dynamic like what he described.
A 120Hz comb filter made with the diodes
conducting and not conducting.

DanL



 

Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:13:15
drlowmu
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Build it for the Finals, L1 equals L2, Hammond's new 7.8 Ohm 159BZ ( $11.89 @ Allied ) , and hear it. C1 is about 30 uF, try a DC LINK, C2 is 50 uF ( Vishay or Wima, @ Mouser ), DC LINK. No more than about 70 mA. draw total for the filter, or else, use a separate filter chain to each channel.

Have fun. It will be absolutely super sounding - sez Uncle Jeff.

Best to you.

JM

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:15:46
rage
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Don't forget Jeff, we haven't tested those new Hammond chokes yet. I don't know if they'll work without buzzing!

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:40:24
drlowmu
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With 70 mA. I have specifically specified as Max. to a Filter chain, and 600 mA. rated, I say no sweat !!! ( Not like the cheapo Triads used by first timers at 100 mA. plus, some years ago.) Hammond's quality has constantly IMPROVED, and these may be better than my fav. the NLA Stancors from Thailand !!! $11.89 each, LMAO. Just replace the lead-outs carefully Sean. 7.8 Ohms DCR is cool. L1 = L2 is also 'way way way cool.

Jeff

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:57:47
rage
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The triads buzzed at 55ma.

These are a smaller core than the usual hammond... mouser only has two in stock. I am tempted to try them. I have my doubts about them handling input duty!!

I hope they work out though.

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 09:11:37
drlowmu
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WOW-WEE on the Triads. I never knew that. Horrible !!

We never have a problem with the later-made Stancor C-2708s from Thailand, NLA.

My C-2708s are always quiet doing 70 mA. in a chain. ( Stereo flea powered amp, shared left-right L1/L2).

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 09:14:08
rage
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You should send one of those Stancor chokes to Heyboer to have unwound and reproduced.

Would cost more I'm sure, but it's definitely "the choke" for LSES.

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 09:31:59
'Hammond's quality has constantly IMPROVED, and these may be better than my fav. the NLA Stancors from Thailand '

You mean the made in China Hammonds (with thicker lams) currently being produced are better than the made in Canada Hammonds (finer lams) that there used to be ? I find Hammond chokes get the job done but are nothing special . You get what you pay for , there are no miracle bargains in the world of iron . Better off spending a little extra and getting some wound to spec locally with M6 lams if it's not a budget build...

Al

 

Hammond ......, posted on February 19, 2015 at 09:47:47
drlowmu
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I was unaware Hammond was producing in China. What percentage of their cataloge?? What about shipping costs Al?

Ever compare M4 to M6 in Ls?? What 'cha think, or thunk. Regards from MO, USA.

Jeff Medwin

 

Hammond ...Part 2, posted on February 19, 2015 at 09:52:40
drlowmu
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Rage:

Maybe Hammond has done that, and reduced the DCR by 20% to 7.8 Ohms !! Al is saying..."Hammond is now made in China"...lets find out !!

JM

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 10:03:58
Why on earth would somebody want to open up and reverse-engineer a simple cheap choke ? Just tell Heyboer what you want and they'll wind it , probably in a more superior fashion :) If you really feel like it send them one to copy but remember it's crap in and crap out !

Al

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 10:08:08
rage
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Because they are unobtainable and performed well for the job at hand.

Jeff has had heyboer wind him chokes for the same purpose... I think he and DF prefer the Stancor.

 

RE: buzzy chokes ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 10:11:47
The cheap Triad 320mH/10 ohm/600mA rated chokes had a mechanical buzz on low mA current draw - about 65-70mA on input duty, IME.

I reported on that back in 2008-2009 after buying (6) of those chokes.

Not too sure about Hammond low H 600mA rated chokes.

 

When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 10:14:23
Cleantimestream
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Possibly M3 is the best middle of the road... yes I know... about 35 percent more expensive for the metal laminations.

Am not opposed to overkill,

if it is done in moderation.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: buzzy chokes ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 14:57:31
Tre'
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Any choke not rated for the AC present will buzz.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Instead of guessing..... theoretically Dan , posted on February 19, 2015 at 16:02:22
Tre'
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Made in Canada

From the data sheet "Inductance @30v, 60Hz, 600ma DC 320mH"

I would think the choke is rated for 30 volts AC. Any more than that and it will buzz.

According to PSUD2 a low everything power supply, delivering 60ma., will place about 160 vac on the input choke.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Tre, why does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 19, 2015 at 16:10:42
elblanco
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Does it have to do with the spiking, sagging nature? Louder louds and softer softs? I can reproduce its aural effects by hooking an outboard dbx expander to a non-lses amp.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 16:35:39
Triad C-56U .

I have not seen any AC specs on this choke, but I have used it as an input choke on circuits drawing excess of 140mADC with no mechanical buzz issue.


The specs or lack of specs are not the whole story in this case.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 17:08:03
dave slagle
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DC current does not cause buzz. Buzz is a result of high AC currents and poor mechanical stability.

dave

 

RE: Tre, why does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 19, 2015 at 17:11:48
Tre'
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Without thinking it all the way through, it seems to me a power supply that sags and soars would do that.

A positive incoming signal to the output tube causes the current in the output tube to increase. This will cause the voltage at the plate to decrease because of more current across the load impedance. With a power supply that sags that plate voltage will be lower still. (voltage drop across the load plus the voltage drop across the supply)

A negative incoming signal to the output tube causes the current in the output tube to decrease. This will cause the voltage at the plate to increase (less current across the load). With a power supply that soars that plate voltage will be higher still.

It seems to me that that will cause the output signal to be larger than intended. Kinda like a dynamic expander.

At lower levels the sagging and soaring would not be as pronounced, thus the "dynamic" part. The quiet parts of the music are not as exaggerated while the loud parts are.

A normal critical inductance choke input supply using relatively large caps reacts slowly to current changes. By the time the output voltage starts to drop because of an increase in the current draw, the current draw has turned around and is decreasing so the voltage never gets very far from it's starting point.

This type of supply is said to be "slow".

That's a good thing. The voltage is more stable.

With the lses supply the voltage drops very quickly when the current increases and rises very quickly when the current decreases. This leaves the supply voltage unstable. Unstable power supplies might sound exciting but they're not "right".

If accurate reproduction of the source signal is the goal, then an unstable power supply voltage will only do harm to the output signal.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 18:25:14
I think load would have some effect on AC ripple current going across the input choke.

At least that is what I could see from playing around in PSUD2 with a current step.

All I can report is how I used this choke and that it didn't have any mechanical buzzy bee issues for my application.

Credit (or blame) JM for introducing this choke to other builders, LOL.

I use the flywheel filter because it sounds as good or better than anything else I have used over the years.

YMMV.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 19, 2015 at 20:47:54
rage
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too bad I wasn't able to get ultra path to work with a flywheel supply. I only went up to 240uf per channel for c2....but not enough..buzzed like crazy.

 

RE: Hammond ......, posted on February 20, 2015 at 07:04:47
Maxamillion
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It says it right on the top of the choke/transformer. Made in China or Made in Canada.

 

RE: Hammond ......, posted on February 20, 2015 at 09:51:41
drlowmu
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Yeah, but what is made where now, how much and what things in China, and what things in Canada, and how will we know in advance from such a huge catalog? And, contrary to what Al alludes to, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE ???

Jeff

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 10:17:39
drlowmu
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Dear Rage,

240 uF is WAY too much uF in an amp. Were you using a shared ( Left and Right, both channels) L1/C1/L2/C2 filter, which is HIGHER in current on the B+ filter, OR, a separate L1/C1/L2/C2 for each 2A3 channel Rage ??

In almost all cases, there is a need to go easy on the small chokes, by splitting the filters in a stereo amp.

MOST of these chokes do NOT have a listed AC VOLTS rating. Both Messers Slagle and Le Fevre pointed out- THIS is the spec of importance.

In PSUD, if you look at current in L1 ( when it is non critical), you will see spikes. It was important to have the chokes rated core current capability CONTAIN the spikes with ease ( Hasquin ), and this usually is "cool", works, in non-critical L1 DIY amp building.

That is why Deathtube, and anyone else likely has no problem with a Triad C-56U ..... as it is non critical - 35 mHY - on a whopping 2 AMPERES core !!

Unfortunately, the C-56U assumes a Flywheel, which I no longer have had interest in using. I would prefer MY AMPS' L1 in the ten to twenty times higher inductance range than the 35 mHY Traid C-56U.

Sounds to me like the 320 mHY Triad C-40 Xs people bought years ago was poorly made, a POS, if it won't do 55 mA. as L1 without buzzing.

The Thailand made Stancor C-2708s, rated 320 mHY, operated at 55 mA. with no problem at all, and they measured higher in mHY, statically, no current across them, than their rating ( measured 420 to 515 mHY statically )...not like the Triads C40-Xs.

I ought to PayPal Deathtube back $68 for the six C-40X Triads he paid for, just so he never throws it in my face up here again !!! :-)

Rage, split 'dem filter chains up Left and Right, instead of adding uF over 50 uF to a shared L1/C1/L2/C2 chain. Have fun, I am !!! Shoot for L1 = L2 in design, ratings etc etc. I always prefer the refined sound of L1/C1/L2/C2 over any L1/C1 filter to the Finals, thus far !

Have fun, I am.

Jeff Medwin

 

AC rating of a choke used at 1/10th its Rated Current , posted on February 20, 2015 at 10:44:29
drlowmu
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No one in this thread has addressed what happens to a 600 mA. rated choke, operated at 60 mA., as far as the effect on its clean AC voltage rating, have we ??

THAT is precisely how it is being used, at 1/10th its rated and Hammond-tested current.

I'm an amateur, no EE, but I'd bet you lunch at Wendy's, that is a factor.

How much of a Factor, I don't know !! Should be easy to test in a audio lab. Gurus Slagel, Le Fevre ?? ANYONE ???

I'd also like to see the difference between a 35 mHY C-56U as in a Flywheel, and a 320 mHY 159BZ as in a LSES.

ANY TAKERS to better understand AC rating versus currents well-below max rated ???????????????????????????? Have fun, learn. Poor GEO is missing out on all the good stuff.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: low DCR follies ... valencia audition , posted on February 20, 2015 at 12:13:42
"I ought to PayPal Deathtube back $68 for the six C-40X Triads he paid for, just so he never throws it in my face up here again !!! :-)"

FWIW, I sold (4) of those chokes on ebay and kept (2) as a reminder of the good old days, LOL.

I got to audition Altec Valencia at a local vintage hi-fi shop yesterday.

They were driven by Citation 2.

As far as the 811B horn went, my SE triode 6V6 active parafeed with flywheel filter sound much cleaner even with aftermarket comp drivers.

Not sure if there was any issue with the Valencia because it was the first time I heard those and they were originals or if it was an issue with the amp.

The bass with 416 woofers went a bit deeper that my setup but sounded like warm mud.

Not sure if the drivers needed re-magnetized or if the crossover needed rebuilt, but I expected it to sound a lot better.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 12:20:33
rage
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I was running dual LCLC. the amp was tolerable with 45uf in the c2 position. I upped capacitance as an experience, around the time I switched to a 6ej7 driver.

the amp got noticably quieter. the 6ej7 had great HF extension, the amp actually sounded its best with 240uf per channel for C2 with the 6ej7.

right now I am using a y config, with a C56u input choke, 22uf, then 2h 7 ohms, then 60uf ge oiler.

it sounds great. I'm back to the 12ax7 so the top end is rolled off... hopefully bypass caps and the FFF help with that. there is hum, a bit of buzz even with my ear close to the speakers...from the listening position its not an issue.


the reason I went to a Y configuration was that I wanted to try Cree diodes in place of the 5u4. I knew my B+ voltage would be too high and hoped the extra current on L1 would drop B+ voltage.. I'm running about 530VDC on my B+ right now.

the 12ax7 as driver is a lot of fun to listen to, even with its current deficiency in top end.. will do measurements maybe over the weekend.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 14:05:02
kyle
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"I ought to PayPal Deathtube back $68 for the six C-40X Triads he paid for, just so he never throws it in my face up here again !!! :-)"

I bought four C-40X on your recommendation and built according to your instructions, minus the wire surgery. Can you send me $74CDN which includes the shipping and exchange rate? I ought to charge storage for having them sit on my shelf since that debacle.
Thanks in advance.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 14:09:53
rage
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the triad c40x works great as a second choke or with a cap input.

I'm only an hour from you Kyle, if ever in port huron I"ll buy em.

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 14:30:25
kyle
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Location: London Ontario
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Minus the gas and toll at the border I'll clear a couple of bucks, easy!
I'll bet Homeland Security will be all over me for bringing them across.
Maybe I'll just keep them until they're back in vogue.

 

RE: low DCR follies ... valencia audition , posted on February 20, 2015 at 15:28:31
Bass from Valencias most definitely should not sound like mud. Most likely old crossovers.

Dave

 

RE: AC rating of a choke used at 1/10th its Rated Current , posted on February 20, 2015 at 16:21:16
mqracing
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Hello Jeff:

you wrote;

"No one in this thread has addressed what happens to a 600 mA. rated choke, operated at 60 mA., as far as the effect on its clean AC voltage rating, have we ??"

Short of doing the math again and typing out the formula's and etc...

what is crtical (ha, ha... perhaps a poor choice of words) with using a choke as the first element in your PS filter--- is to make sure that it has sufficient AC flux capacity to absorb the ripple voltage across it as the 120hz (assuming 60hz line frequency).

Say you have 300 volts of ripple at 120 hz. if the choke's L is say .32 H then it is going to draw approx 1.2 amps of exciting current.

Ic = Ep divided by (2pi times F times L)

notice that DC current is nowhere in the formula--- so whether your using the 600 madc rated choke at 6 mils, 60 mil, or whatever (short of saturating the choke from the dc current)--- the amount of AC flux due to the ripple component is going to be governed by the formula above.

MSL



Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

RE: ac ratings ..., posted on February 20, 2015 at 16:27:52
mqracing
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to see an example of combining AC fluxes (i.e., ripple voltage) into a choke design go to Dave's blog and read about a choke that he was recently commissioned to design and build.

A power supply filter choke... especially when used as a choke input MUST be able to function well when you combine (if that is the right word to use) the DC fluxes and AC fluxes.

You can choose to ignore the AC components but at the risk of it not really being suitable in terms of the ripple volts across it.

A good design incorporates and allows for accomadation of both the AC and DC components.

MSL



Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

RE: low DCR follies ... valencia follies, posted on February 20, 2015 at 17:15:38
The guy wanted $950.

One of the 806A (?) compression drivers was repaired, maybe a new diaphragm, not sure if it was Altec or aftermarket.

And one of the cabinets was missing the control on the back, perhaps that was for a dividing network.

The cabinets were OK condition, just not sure about the condition of the comp drivers and woofers.

 

RE: Tre, why does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 20, 2015 at 17:16:42
elblanco
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Posts: 3486
Joined: August 20, 2004
Okay, so what I did was get three of us in a room with drums, standup bass, and archtop guitar and record to 4 track reel to reel A3340S with one ambient mic(PZM)@15ips recorded dry no EQ. I did this because, like you, I believe the sound of acoustic instruments is the acid test and if you dont know what this should sound like than it makes proper evaluation difficult. When I listen straight off the deck with headphones it is accurate just as it is run through a non-lses 2a3 DC amp. When i hook up an outboard expander it sounds like the lses 2a3 DC amp I built. Could it be all this hullabaloo is because there are people that like this sound and should just leave it at that?

 

Yes. (nt), posted on February 20, 2015 at 18:25:23
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
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.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

thanks, everytime I listen to lses I feel like there should be, posted on February 20, 2015 at 18:45:28
elblanco
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Posts: 3486
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Shag carpet and giant throw pillows in the room.

 

RE: low DCR follies ... valencia follies, posted on February 21, 2015 at 00:21:01
Not a great price, but not terrible either. The great thing about that stuff is that replacement parts and service is available from Great Plains Audio, and it's the real deal. A bad diaphragm or cone wouldn't scare me off, but of course it factors in the price. Model 19 would be my highest recommendation out of that stuff, over Valencias, but under $1k is doing well for any of the big stuff.

Dave

 

RE: Hammond ......, posted on February 21, 2015 at 04:48:05
Maxamillion
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If you look on the Hammond site there are picture of many items that show the top of the lams where the origin is indicated. I have had better luck with the Canada made units; the China ones I have are flimsier in build and hum/buzz at less than the rated current. It seems from my experience that the China ones are usually from their economy lines.

 

RE: low DCR follies ... 414 follies, posted on February 21, 2015 at 06:43:32
I am more interested in getting better woofers, something like 414 12" and having heavier duty cabinets made for them.

Sent an email to GPA for a quote on an alnico set, I bet they are expensive based on what they want for 414-8C.

I like the idea of a smaller ported box I can move without killing myself and have the horn sit on top.

Something the size of a Seville cabinet or a little bit larger.

Been looking at some alnico comp drivers but not sure if there is any advantage with those since I crossover about an octave higher than what is usually specified for 811B.

 

RE: low DCR follies ... 414 follies, posted on February 21, 2015 at 10:07:02
Model 19s cross at 1250Hz with the 800hz horn, a very successful setup IMO. 604s also usually cross around 1500Hz with the same driver. I wouldn't have thought of the 414s as better than 416s if that's what you meant, but maybe you have a different experience or maybe it's more about the smaller size. But yes, based on all that it sounds like the Valencias were not what you were looking for. Good luck with it.

Dave

 

RE: low DCR follies ... valencia audition , posted on February 21, 2015 at 13:27:01
tube wrangler
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Replace the caps in the Valencia crossover network with really good tin foils, etc., and install 12ga. wiring in the cabinet, silver or silver-plated copper. Don't use only copper unless it is cryogenically-treated.

"Warm Mud" comes from slow amps with one or more stages current-starved, and from small wires in speaker drive loops, and in speaker cabinetry.

Raise the transfer Efficiency.

---Dennis---



 

RE: low DCR follies ... 414 follies, posted on February 21, 2015 at 13:30:24
tube wrangler
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Don't be afraid of Bills' NEW woofers.

I sure like them.

Sounds like a re-cone on BOTH H.F. drivers, let Bill do them.

---Dennis---

 

RE: ... GPA 414 follies, posted on February 21, 2015 at 14:04:22
There are some GPA 414-8C on sale new for $240 on Ebay.

Not sure how much the alnico 414-8B's cost or if there is any difference in how they sound.

There is also a set of used 414Z for a bit less money.



 

And a hookah?, posted on February 21, 2015 at 19:40:21
Ivan303
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OK, just a suggestion.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: And a hookah?, posted on February 21, 2015 at 20:42:23
elblanco
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Posts: 3486
Joined: August 20, 2004
Check. I just wanted to eliminate some variables by recording something, then playing it back immediately through various amps. Lses , to my ears, acts like an expander. My buddy has an EH scott radio with a city full of tubes that has an expander. But he also has a big honking RCA-99 with an expander. Apparently these were used to restore the "jump factor" to records before advancements in vinyl made them largely unnecessary. Pre microgroove? I can see, or should I say, hear where some people would be drawn to the sound due to the psychoacoustic aspects of it, but it is not an accurate representation of the performance. Speakers were jensen G610 triax and alternately 604E with ML crossovers.

 

RE: And a hookah?, posted on February 22, 2015 at 07:53:49
The Bored
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Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 1999
Don't encourage him.

Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...

 

RE: When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 22, 2015 at 10:59:10
mqracing
Manufacturer

Posts: 4323
Joined: June 29, 2000
aw... I don't want to disagree with you too much... and I'm a big fan of the lower numbered M core materials....

but that said, I think you've oversimplified important technical and performance issues when you make a near universal claim as above.

As with most things--- there are advantages and disadvantages--- to using say M4, M3, M2 etc.

First off we should recognize that M6 is itself no slouch. It's losses are a third of the next lam grade below it. It's perm several whole numbers greater than the lam grade below it. It's highly processed to acheive it's performance parameters. And for many applications has a desirable "BALANCE" of properties.

And look at the level of performance that we can obtain with the use of M6 laminations. With this grade of lamination it is possible to achieve 100 plus henries of inductance per thousand ohms of relected primary impedance. And still get frequency response within the limits of plus or minus one db from 20 hz to 100khz or greater. Not too shabby. Nothing to be ashamed of.

now, you might ask or assert that one of the super M lams (M4, M3, M2, etc) would make this "better"...

the super M's are neat... I like them very much... in many applications but not all applications.

The super M's have less hysteresis losses and decreased eddy current losses compared to M6 and some measure of greater perm than M6. So all is good, heh?

Back to advantages and disadvantages--- is there a fly in the ointment--- I'll pick out two considerations to explore---

one of the drawbacks to the super M's is that they are thinner than M6.
M6 is nominally .014" thick. M4 is nominally .011", M3 .009", and M2 is nominally .007" thick.

While many folks will assume this to be auniversal plus--- argument that the thinner lams decrease the eddy current losses (which is true)--- but in the greatest majority of applications with M6 edddy current losses aren't much of a gremlin to begin.

On the flip side--- the super M's because they are so thin--- does present one drawback on their own. It's that they have a poorer "stacking factor" (often referred to as the K factor).

the stacking factor is a measure of how much of your nominal stack is actually comprised of "magnetic material". No matter the grade of lam all of the individual pieces (say in an EI type lam) are individually insulated from one another. this insulation is very thin... but it does have some real world thickness to it... so that the K factor (stacking factor) will always be less than 1 (one).

How much less you ask? Partly depending on the craft skills of the person doing the stacking--- the default value for M6 is in the range of say .9 to .92 (or 90% to 92%)...

awe... now those thin lams (which have the same insulation thickness on them) are going to have a decrease in the stacking factor... and the thinner the lam gets the worse the stacking factor becomes...

(I'm doing the stacking factors for the super M's from memory)...

so M4 drops the stacking factor to say the range of .8 to .85, M3 drops even more (so you have even less actual magnetic material in your stack), and M2 lowers the boom-boom even more...

what this does is that instead of having a two inch stack of lams we have something less than two inches effective... use the multipliers above...

so tha with M6 we might have 1.8" of stack... and with M4 say 1.6" of effective stack....

the less stack we have--- is going to increase our AC flux density (all other things being equal)--- we will end up working the core material harder with one of the super M's than if we used M6. and this is a linear relationship--- if we decrease the core stack by 10% we'll make the AC flux density 10% greater.

AS AC flux density varies (inversely) with frequency--- the less effective core stack we have reduces the power handling of the structure as you go lower in frequency.

To compensate we could make the core stack greater--- an easy fix, heh?

Aw... it is a potential "fix" but now if we increase the stack we will make the winding coil larger and increase the capacitances of and within the coil itself--- which is not a good thing. Our mean length of turn (of the copper circuit) will be greater which means we will increase our winding resistances (DCR) and hence our copper losses will become greater.

So... though they are in many respects super materials--- the M4, M3, and M2 lams must be evaluated from the vantage point of both the strengths as well as the weaknesses of the material.


MSL





Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

THANK YOU, posted on February 22, 2015 at 12:16:11
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Thank you so much for teaching me that !!!

I have saved your above, "on the mark" response to my hard drive, for posterity !!

Jeff

 

RE: When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 22, 2015 at 12:37:57
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Hi Mike. That is very interesting info on stacking. I've often wondered about the different "M" grades. Thanks for that!
I have a sort of related question on lams. If the lams have been disturbed, ie they have been displaced slightly, will this spoil the insulation? I have a couple of nice transformers that got bounced during a house move and the lams got misaligned.
Thanks again.

 

WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 13:23:59
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
A choke's behavior is to oppose change in current flow. A cap's behavior is to gobble up
and store as much current as it can. When the amplifier demands an increase in current
the caps initially release some current, but then begin to compete with the amplifier for
current because they want to maintain their charge. Then if you have large inductance
chokes, they prevent the power transformer from delivering current to the caps because
they are opposing change in current flow. This in turn means the more current the
amplifier demands, the more the caps compete for the limited amount of current. The
result is dampened dynamics because the amplifier is current starved. Big caps and
chokes = dampened dynamics and a current starved amplifier. Low DCR power
transformer with low value chokes and caps = dynamics.

 

RE: WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 13:32:40
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
I think there are several misconceptions here in what you are saying, and it is tough to cover them all in one go. Just to pick one topic, I think you need to be clear about what kind of amplifier load you are talking about. A class A SET is a very different kind of load from a class AB push-pull amplifier.

In a class AB amplifier, the average current draw by the amplifier will get very much larger than the quiescent current draw during periods when the music is loud. Thus, the demand from the power supply for a much higher current will last for the duration of the loud passage, which could be for many seconds.

By contrast, in a class A SET the current drawn by the amplifier will oscillate around the quiescent current at the frequency or frequencies of the audio signal. Furthermore, if the amplifier is not being run so loud that it is clipping, the maximum current draw during the cycle will be less than twice the quiescent current draw. Regardless of how loud or soft the sound is, the average current draw, averaged over the cycle of the audio frequency, will be essentially constant. It doesn't matter if the loud passage is long or short in duration; the current draw on the power supply, averaged over the audio frequency cycle, will be essentially unaltered.

Thus, if you are worried about what is happening to the voltage across the output capacitor of the power supply for an SET amplifier, you need to worry about what is happening at the time scale of the audio signal, and NOT the time scale of the duration of the loud passages in the music. So, for example, for a very loud note at A4 (the A above middle C, 440Hz), the current draw takes about 570 microseconds to rise from the quiescent value to the maximum value of about double the quiescent current. (One quarter of the 440Hz cycle.) If you use very low inductance chokes, then the rectifier diodes will be non-conducting during a significant portion of the mains supply cycle. It is perfectly possible that the increased current draw, taking place over the 570 microseconds mentioned above, could coincide with a period when the rectifier diodes are non-conducting. The only way the amplifier is going to get the increased current it needs during that time is from the stored charge in the output capacitor.

What is needed, of course, is to try to smooth out the fluctuations so that the voltage across the output capacitor doesn't fall and rise in time with the peaks and the troughs in the audio signal. In other words, the impedance of the output capacitor at the entire range of audio frequencies needs to be small compared with the effective impedance of the amplifier that is loading it. Thus the larger the output capacitance, the better this goal is achieved.

The other thing that is needed is to smooth out the fluctuations in the recharging of the output capacitor by the previous stages of the power supply. Again, this will get better and better as the value of the output capacitor is increased.

The loading on the power supply imposed by a class A SET amplifier is really incredibly benign, in comparison to the loading by a class AB amplifier.

Chris

 

RE: WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 13:56:37
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
So you think. You are entitled to your thoughts.

Add capacitance, be my guest.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 15:01:58
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"So you think. You are entitled to your thoughts.

Add capacitance, be my guest."

There are two very distinct issues here. Firstly, the is the question of how to minimise the voltage fluctuations of the power supply under the influence of the fluctuating load from the amplifier. Increasing the size of the final capacitor in power supply will decrease the fluctuations. This is really just a consequence of basic physical principles.

The other question is how the sound of the amplifier is influenced by the occurrence of fluctuations in the voltage of the power supply. It is perfectly conceivable that a listener may prefer the colourations that result from having a fluctuating power supply voltage. This is a psycho-acoustical question.

Chris

 

RE: just finished lses build, posted on February 22, 2015 at 15:27:12
panheadchopper
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: February 1, 2015



Hi, Total Newbee here... 1st post, to any forum, anywhere... I just gotta jump in... Both feet first... I'm challenging any non believers in the sound of low dcr chokes to do this simple test... Pictured is a Dyna MK3 running a simple differential driver section (very balanced) the amp is inverted and running, it has the stock Dyna 60 ohm choke (red clip), parallel Edcor 21 ohm (green clip), parallel 17 ohm Edcors (yellow clip with red wire), and finally 2.5 ohm 350mh choke (yellow clip with brown wire. It is configured with a C-L-C supply like stock. C-1 is a 35uf-800v dc link cap, the chokes can be jumped in and out or paralleled with the amplifier playing. C-2 is a 45uf 600v dc link. 5AR4 rectifier or plug in Hexfreds. AS YOU JUMP IN THE LOWER DC DCR CHOKES YOU CAN CLEARLY HERE THE DIFFERENCE!!!!! Way more clarity top to bottom, more resolution of individual instruments and voices, smoother, more natural, Vocals are more fleshed out and lifelike, more dynamic contrasts bass line and drum line are more differentiated, DYNAMICS!!! (The 2.5 ohm KICKS ASS). I've done this test with many amplifiers. IE: SE 2A3's, 45's, and 300B's I ALLWAYS hear the same result. Thanks

 

RE: WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 15:29:51
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Incorrect on second point. From PSUD2 step analysis, to listening tests.

But go ahead, add more capacitance to your own amps if you think that is beneficial to the sonics.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: WHY - does the lses amp i built sound like a dynamic expander, posted on February 22, 2015 at 16:31:18
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"Incorrect on second point. From PSUD2 step analysis, to listening tests.

But go ahead, add more capacitance to your own amps if you think that is beneficial to the sonics.

Jeff Medwin"

As has been said many times before, a stepped load does not really represent a good approximation of the sort of load an SET places on a power supply. There are no extended periods of increased average current draw with a class A amplifier like an SET. The current draw, averaged over the periods of the audio frequencies in the signal, is essentially independent of whether the music is loud or soft. Probably in PSUD you are restricted in the kinds of loads you can simulate, and so you cannot investigate the kind of load that an SET amplifier presents.

Furthermore, as has also been said countless times, the fact that you personally prefer the sound associated with your type of power supply in no way contradicts the fact that it has a less well regulated voltage. That's just the way you like the sound...nothing wrong with that.

Chris

 

RE: When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 22, 2015 at 19:46:59
mqracing
Manufacturer

Posts: 4323
Joined: June 29, 2000
Unlikely that the displacement would have caused harm (by itself) in the insulation on the lams.

To straighten out--- remove the hardware (assuming 4 bolts) and then tap, tap, tap the lams (gingerly) and line them up by eye to be square.

Then reinstall the hardware and tighten--- say a half to 3/4 of a turn or so past finger snug.

MSL



Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

Thanks Mike!, posted on February 23, 2015 at 04:06:54
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
You saved a set of transformers from oblivion.

 

WOW, .. his FIRST POST to ANY Forum, posted on February 23, 2015 at 06:39:06
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Says hes a newbie, but building, owning and modding all those four amps, hes a newbie ONLY to posting up here.

Cool, have fun listening, panheadchopper. Beautiful first post up here sir !!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: just finished lses build, posted on February 23, 2015 at 10:26:12
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Lots of jumpers.
Do you still have the four section can cap in circuit as well as the eight electrolytics that are visible? What do they do?
Thanks.

 

RE: When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 13:33:09
Love this sort of info ! Thanks Mike . A few questions : what is 29M6 which Hammond mentions for their IT's , is it M6 stating the thickness ? What about Z11 , an M6 equivalent ? Also is M19 standard 'mains transformer' grade laminations ?

Are there any other GOSS lams worth looking in to that are commonly available ?

Al

 

Understood Mike... I have several of your pieces {some you no longer wind} and you stack them clean &, posted on February 23, 2015 at 15:20:50
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
straight as a line.

Was leading with the chin when I wrote that; full well knowing there are
MANY
parameters to consider. In my builds I cut absolutely no corners {this has sometimes gotten extremely expensive} and am starting to look @... I need to build a Room to gain superior sound.

Thank You Mike for weighing in with your er, Weighty expertise.

The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: When all the winders start using M2 I will start to believe them being earnest in raising the bar..., posted on February 23, 2015 at 16:56:00
mqracing
Manufacturer

Posts: 4323
Joined: June 29, 2000
Al asked;

"what is 29M6"

twenty nine is the guage of the lamination and M6 is the grade.

to my knowledge all stamped lams of M6 are stamped from 29 guage (.014") rolls.


"What about Z11"

again, to my knowledge Z11 has the metallurgy of M6 but comes supplied in
.011" thickness. It is typically used in c-core manufacture.


"is M19 standard 'mains transformer' grade laminations"

historically M19 was referred to as the "power transformer grade"
M19 does not have the same metallurgy as M6 (missing the high content
silicon) and it is not grain-oriented as M6 is. M19 can be ordered in either 24 guage or 26 guage.


Before M6 became commercially available in the early fifties--- the highest grade of steel laminations (not counting the nickels) was
M15. M15 was hot rolled and was supplied in 29 guage. It was not grain oriented.

MSL






Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

RE: just finished lses build, posted on February 23, 2015 at 17:06:45
panheadchopper
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: Pittsburgh
Joined: February 1, 2015
The can cap and the large photoflash caps are all disconnected from the main B+ rail...... The other electrolytics are being used in the negative voltage supply for the output tube bias circuitry..... And also in negative voltage supply for the CCS used on the phase splitter/driver tube cathodes...... And finally, two are for decoupling the B+ voltage supply for the phase splitter/driver tube and voltage amp tube.

 

explanation of what the M numbers in core mats means, posted on February 23, 2015 at 17:07:45
mqracing
Manufacturer

Posts: 4323
Joined: June 29, 2000
Here's a little snippet I found on the internet which explains the convention of having M(X) numbers.

Editorial at the end is not of my authorship!!!

******************************************************************
Good quality transformers are made with silicon steel laminations that come in different grades, with designations such as M6, M19, M27, and so forth. What they mean is this:

The number after the letter "M" is 10 times the maximum power loss per pound, with sine wave excitation at 60 Hz, and a peak flux density of 15,000 gauss.

That is, M6 laminations will have a maximum core loss of .6 watts/pound; M19 laminations will have a maximum core loss of 1.9 watts/pound, etc. (all at 15,000 gauss and 60 Hz sine wave excitation).

There do exist grades M2, M3 and M4, but they are expensive, and generally not used except in special circumstances.




Builder of MagneQuest & Peerless transformers since 1989

 

RE: just finished lses build, posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:20:35
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Thanks for that. It looked like a big pile of stuff for a MK3. I've got several of them as well and they do get congested after a few mods.

 

RE: explanation of what the M numbers in core mats means, posted on February 23, 2015 at 19:39:32
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
I had read this previously but I still found your explanation easier to read.

 

I would assume, posted on February 24, 2015 at 20:08:36
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
That as the resistance of the chokes drop, the voltage to the circuit goes up. Do you compensate by adding resistance to the B+ to the output stage, input, etc., or do you simply listen to it with these higher voltages?

Jim McShane once commented when someone was posting about differences they heard among different brands of 5AR4s. He said that the differences could possibly be nothing more than different voltages produced by different rectifier tubes.

FYI, I'm not a "low DCR" naysayer. I'm simply asking because I'm trying to learn something. Normally I don't get involved, but I have a pair of MkIII monos sitting here, in need of a rebuild, so I'm curious.

Thanks.



 

M4 Stacks, posted on March 4, 2015 at 15:56:19
tweakydee
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Location: VA
Joined: February 27, 2004
Mike,
Once you have a 1.6 inch stack with M4 lams, if you were going to make a nickle pinstriped version, do you remove a few of the M4 lams and replace them with the nickle lams, or just add some nickle lams into it? Just wondering how that affects the balance.

 

Jeff, what a load of bull!!!, posted on March 4, 2015 at 23:05:35
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
I record music, live acoustic concerts, including orchestras.

I always make a copy of the edited file - before I 'normalise it' for broadcast so I can bring it home to listen to.

I became a cathedral chorister within the Anglican tradition at age nine and passed to became a leader when I was just just eleven. The focus for me under that job was to be placed at the altar end of the Decani (or firsts) on the Dean's side of the Sanctuary. There were 15 boys in teh Decani. My job was to ensure that the boys back from there to the Head Chorister down nearest the pulpit all came in together with the HC, in time.

The Choirmaster and organist had told me that I had true perfect (IE natural) pitch and was very good at timing, hence the job. There were three other leaders already in that 14. I was not popular - with two of them.

I bi-amplify with two matching (enriched A) Class AB1 amplifiers - rebuilt / modified LEAK St20s with very big RC/C/C+C and just bleeder R PSUs. Into easy load efficient speakers. the PSUS in there are working a LOT harder in response to the signal than a flea-watt SET's PSU ever will. SS SR diodes instead of a GZ34.

I have NEVER heard anything but perfect rendition of the timing I heard in the concerts. And, all the timing errors and the pitch inaccuracies (including relative pitch) all the errors over which I winced through my ears alone, while I listened and watched the meters bounce. The amps are VERY quiet as tube amps go.

Except with very large forces and very loud peaks I don't find any distortion of the original peak dynamics either.

Time/phase and frequency (pitch) are orthogonal, Jeff. Do you know how BIG a flaw you are claiming exists - musically - in typical PSUs, let alone high storage ones? If it were true, the sound would be obviously flawed in pitch and relative pitch and timing ALL the time. And it just isn't.

So, why don't you stop boring us to death with your imaginings.

I'll stay with what Nelson Pass tells me about storage, mate.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

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