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What's happened to TDIY?

202.172.104.29

Posted on January 28, 2015 at 20:28:20
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
Serious discussions are a lost memory.

I used to love this forum and over the years most of us have benefitted from a balanced collection of information from experienced, technical and non technical inmates. Alas, it has slowly but surely deteriorated into a bitch fest, seized by closed minded, know it all extremists ... the way of the world I fear.

I feel sorry for the hand full of genuine people doing their best to keep this sinking boat afloat but if the moderators do not step in and take charge soon I personally see TDIY's demise, or at least its fade into irrelevance.

This is a plea for sanity. I have come to know many good people who used to post regularly but refrain because they fear that their opinions and experiences will come under attack by the bullies who have taken over this forum.

The sad part is that there are elements of truth in what most have to say, yes even the extremists. But like governments around the world, being in opposition means opposing everything, even if they secretly believe in any aspect of a particular idea.

I have a technical background, BUT I'm the first to admit that I hear things I do not have the expertise or equipment to measure and I have damn good equipment and far reaching experience! I too used to think that anyone claiming to hear a difference between cables and certain components suffered from one or more of many conditions, the placebo effect being the kindest.

My skeptical nature ensures that I question my own senses because of my desire to understand EVERYTHING I observe from a technical standpoint. However, I've come to learn that there ARE differences that from a technical standpoint don't make a lot of sense. That doesn't mean I believe everything without question, I just don't go opening my mouth until I can back what I say with real world experience. I keep an open mind until I prove it for myself, over time and more often than not involving my audio friends whose ears I trust, using some form of blind testing where I can. Are some of these differences major? No, and I've also learned that many (but not all) differences are tonal in nature which can easily be addressed in other, perhaps technically better ways.

My designs start with a solid engineering practices to provide the foundation and yes, I Sim almost everything. Not because it's the be-all but because it's one of the best modern day tools available to achieve my design goals efficiently. When I'm finished with my design and prototype it the best way I can within reason I listen and make appropriate modifications, comparing everything from the building blocks I've used to the sound and synergy of components. It doesn't mean I build the best there is to build but I, like many here, know that the result is more often much better than mega dollar commercial equipment on offer and I have had significant direct experience with such components in my own system.

I know I'm not alone in my feelings or thinking, but I often wonder just how many inmates are sick of useless arguments that cannot be won by their very nature. There is more to audio than the sound of pieces of wire, LSES PSUs and caps. Perhaps if everyone that feels remotely the same backs me on this and chimes in here we can send a serious message to the moderators and TAKE BACK OUR FORUM. OK, forgetting that last rant, get this forum back under control ... broad based and balanced PLEASE ... sigh!

Naz

 

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I just had cataract surgery which improved my eyesight considerably, posted on January 28, 2015 at 20:47:42
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10271
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
It certainly makes me question my sense of sight. Same thing goes for hearing IMHO. Everyone's ears are unique.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 28, 2015 at 21:04:44
DAK
Audiophile

Posts: 2712
Location: PACIFIC
Joined: August 8, 2010
Hi Naz, I don't understand why you feel that way. It seems to me that things are about the same as they usually are. One side tries to convince the other side that their way is the best. The other side says they are delusional and are hearing things. The technophiles trot out their graphs and equations, while the realist say just trust your ears. In the immortal words of David Byrne of Talking Heads, "....same as it ever was..." cheers, Dak

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 28, 2015 at 21:49:25
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014



.
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RE: I just had cataract surgery which improved my eyesight considerably, posted on January 28, 2015 at 22:06:27
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Jay,

Hey !! - I too, used to have cataracts, but now, I drive a Lincoln.

Good news on your surgery fella !!

Definition of " minor surgery "?? "Someone else."

Jeff Medwin

 

Well said., posted on January 28, 2015 at 23:41:15
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
Not that it will do any good ... :^)

There is no way this can be changed by moderation. Been through a few cycles. The thing is, we have to accept our own parts in the dynamic and change our behavior - ALL of us. Ain't gonna happen. I've seen more than a few "instigators" of bad behavior kicked off of forums, but they are always replaced by another. The system - or community, if you will - is self-sustaining; we will create trolls if we have to because we secretly want them. Our behavior proves it.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 00:48:03
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
Agree mate,
there is a level of underlying intimidation in TDIY that you do not see in British, Euro / English speak forums. A couple of yrs ago Joe Roberts started posting to this very forum which I thought was really cool (I still read battered / dog eared copies of Sound Practices in the dunny) & he too became pissed off & left sadly. I believe the moderators have to create a atmosphere whereby inmates can post without being pissed on by bullies and polarised views need to be tempered. Finally people need to remember this is audio NOT religious fanaticism !

Cheers Johno.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 05:04:30
' TAKE BACK OUR FORUM'

Too late for that , a lot of contributors are now gone for good !

Al

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 05:17:58
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1465
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
Various audio sites have a different 'flavor' resulting in pros & cons. It can get abusive here at AA and I left AA for over a year after some AA members stated I contributed about nothing! Yes, it pissed me off and I am not a 'hot head'.

On the other hand I was surprised at another very active audio site how far they were behind common upgrades mentioned here at AA even 10 years ago. For example some of the site members performed rebuilds & upgrades to vintage gear using $1 coupling caps, low performance power supply rebuilds, minimal or zero tube rolling recommendations, no upgrades to terribly deficient phono sections, etc. Not to dismiss the high quality technical troubleshooting abilities of others there, but my posts quickly gained a large following with better sounding rebuilds until I apparently pissed off the 'status quo' and was banned for life.

Duly note I was banned from that other site in 1999 too due to a disagreement with a moderator and that moderator actually edited my original post to cover themselves. So, on the plus side I have not been banned or abused by the moderators here and IMO AA moderators are seriously more professional.

At times the aggressive nature at AA can be disconcerting, but for the most part the advice is excellent.

 

"AA moderators are seriously more professional" Absolutely! nt, posted on January 29, 2015 at 05:34:35
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
nada aqui

 

"we will create trolls if we have to"..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 05:49:25
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12359
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
..."because we secretly want them. Our behavior proves it." Yes, that seems to be the case despite what tends to get said about them.

 

my personal guidelines, posted on January 29, 2015 at 05:56:39
RayP
Audiophile

Posts: 727
Location: Maryland
Joined: June 30, 2005
I am more inclined to read a post if
- the depth level is < 5
- the poster is someone whose past opinions have been useful
- if the message is a response to something I posted
- if somebody takes the time to change the subject line to give me an idea of what their post is about

I am less inclined to read a post if
- the depth level appears to be going on to infinity
- the poster is someone who usually takes part in these infinite discussions
- the subject has been discussed many times already

I am more inclined to post if
- something has been posted that puzzles me and I ask a question - I reckon there is a good chance that somebody else is puzzled as well
- if I think I can refocus the discussion a little in a direction that is more useful to me
- once in a blue moon I might actually know something that might be technically useful that hasn't been mentioned in the thread

I am less inclined to post if
- somebody responds to my post with a dismissive comment
- the topic is already known to be toxic
- the depth level is getting out of control
- I haven't already performed a search of the forum on the topic for past posts

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot more readers than posters to this forum. I find it to be a very useful repository of good information, particularly if I use the search mechanism.

To sum up, it's not about taking back control of the forum. It's about each of us being more choosy about the posts we take the time to read and post.

ray


 

Amen! Excellent post. nt, posted on January 29, 2015 at 06:24:16
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
nt

 

all forum has a life span, , posted on January 29, 2015 at 06:50:33
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003
Once the enthusiasm is gone, things start to deteriorate. By the way, we are just playing things of past! I still enjoy the site but now I know where to apply my filter.

 

We have a Tweaks forum!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:14:09
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
And over there demanding proof of concept is outright forbidden. And the moderator (John Risch) does enforce that with an iron fist. Same for the cables asylum. That's why I don't ever post there. I do not believe in the concepts being discussed.

But the DIY forum should be reserved for more traditional engineering approaches. That's not to say new ideas can't be discussed. Quite the contrary. I love to see posts improving the performance of classic circuits by virtues of modern computer simulation or even a little sand in the right places.

But this exotic hookup wire, transformer mutilation, powering CD players with multiple 10amp transformers, belongs in the Tweaks forum.

When newbies ask about the virtues of silver wire inside an amp here, they damn well should hear the science (or lack of) behind it.

I think the moderators here support that and that's why scientific/enginering rebuttals are not censored here.

 

RE: We have a Tweaks forum!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:23:01
Here's how it started . A choke's figure of merit is R/L with a lower figure of merit being better . See link for more details , it's about as far back as you can go in the archives (2004) . What I don't understand is that the chokes Serious Stereo (and also Jeff) use fall into the 'low-fi' category...

Al

 

Rincoln?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:30:05
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10271
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
Thanks, Jeff. Had surgery on Monday and my eye feels normal today (Thursday) -- can't get over how vibrant colors are, though.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

It is kind of hilarious , posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:33:49
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
Thanks for the trip down memory lane. That this all started with:

"But the KEY universal "audio-goodness parameter" in a power supply is .......lowest DCR and highest Inductance."

I can agree with that, but possibly altered to be "enough" inductance. Big, low resistance chokes have low power losses and can produce very stable voltage and if they are massively overrated they done hum much.

How this morphed into Low DCR and Lowest inductance is where it all went sideways. Cheap hash chokes have no place in an amp B+ supply.

 

Nobody competent here ever argued against low DCR!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:39:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
It's exactly like you said. Low DCR is great, not always mandatory for good performance but given the option, most engineers will pick the lower DCR. But just because a power supply has a higher DCR choke does not mean the amp sounds bad. It's just not that simple.

What is really getting old and does infuriate folks here is the constant Serious Stereo shilling.

 

How about this:, posted on January 29, 2015 at 08:55:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
The tweaks and cables asylums have a policy of not requiring any proof of performance and the threat of being banned if you insist on arguing that way.

So why don't we adopt a similar yet opposing policy on the tube DIY forum.

"Concepts and designs here are subject to analysis using standard electronics theory and practice. Persistent arguing against proven simulations and mathematics in favor of golden ear engineering is not allowed. Chronic violators are subject to ban".

That ought to clean thing up here!

 

cable asylum is nasty lately. (nt), posted on January 29, 2015 at 09:27:39
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003
.

 

RE: We have a Tweaks forum!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 09:30:11
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
I flag a lot of posts here and ask that they be moved to Tweaks. They were for a short time, but not any longer.

 

RE: It is kind of hilarious , posted on January 29, 2015 at 09:51:23
I think what he intended to say was the highest inductance for a given set of (other) parameters which was not suggested in the post . Now it appears one of the parameters is weight , although I feel this is not an issue . After recent non-scientific experimentation with LCLC supplies I am now convinced that text book values do not provide the best tonal balance but then again what I am finding is miles off this 'LSES' thing . All down to personal taste but I find the first choke approaching or meeting critical inductance with the second a moderate inductance (~5H) gives the best sound for low values of first and second C . Low values of second L , for me , provide poor sounding lifeless bass using the same value of smoothing cap . Low values of second L also seem to have a weird resonant effect which rattles areas of my workshop when some pieces of music are played .

Al

 

I like it, posted on January 29, 2015 at 10:12:58
JoshK
Audiophile

Posts: 820
Location: NJ/NYC
Joined: August 3, 2001
I like that sort of filter. Would do a lot to cut this out, but many will complain. How about Technical TDIY (TTDIY) and a subjective TDIY subforums? Then if you want to know what wire or cap or whatever you should use in your build beyond the technical merits you wander over to the other side.

There would be no LSES debates on the tehnical side unless they could actually come up with good reasons why a build might be better in a particular case. I like how John Swenson a long while back went through the appropriate technical comparison and gave his subjective opinion (which is ok, as long as he wasn't arguing for superiority BASED on subjectives I don't have a problem with subjective assessment).

Splitting the forum would be an awesome social experiment as well to see what flourishes and what just results in flame wars.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster

 

+1 (nt), posted on January 29, 2015 at 10:19:19
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

"TTDIY" Even better., posted on January 29, 2015 at 10:22:13
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Very reasonable but ..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 10:48:14
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
.. nothing will change. The Tech Police and the Fanatics will drown reasonable people out. It is the way of the world.

There are a few places where reasonable discussion holds sway but here, you gotta put up with the nutjobs on both sides.

It ain't an asylum for nothing.

cheers,

Stephen

 

It won't., posted on January 29, 2015 at 10:52:26
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
I've asked some members of the Tech Police to provide the standards of excellence by which they will judge but to date, it has never been provided.

It's all very well to demand adherence to scientific standards of excellence. I think that's great. So what are these standards of excellence?

I know what they are for me but what are they for the Tech Police? Enquiring minds would like to know.

 

How about the silver thread below., posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:32:12
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
Let's take the recent silver hookup wire discussion.

Look at the numbers reported for the differences in resistance at the lengths discussed. Look at the magnitude of skin effect at audio frequencies.

It's pretty clear that using standard measurement criteria which the electronics industry in general adheres to, there is no sonic benefit for silver wire in this application.

Now if someone wants to argue that measurements are invalid or quote some unsubstantiated quantum physics theory, that belongs in the tweaks or cables asylum.

If OTOH, we are talking about the heat resistance of Teflon insulation or the solder-ability of silver plated wire, that a different issue and quite relevant to DIY construction.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:33:19
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
You post insults to someone and then delete your post so they get the email with your insult but there's no post on the forum. Yup, you really stand by what you say. How courageous.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:41:49
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
Actually I thought better of my post in hindsight.

Here you go:

"Stop your whining Steven R

Isn't a decade of whining long enough?"

I'm supposed to know what your notifications settings are?
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RE: How about the silver thread below., posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:47:06
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
I deleted the post as it was deviating from the OP's point.

Sorry.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:51:02
I shouldn't, but I will.

The short answer is Jeff Medwin happened. People like to be polite, but I'll cut to the chase.

In any group like this, there will be a few people with well above average energy and enthusiasm. When those people lose sight of the fact that everyone's interests and attitudes are different, and become convinced it's crucial to spread their own interests to others, it becomes a problem.

The problem is compounded when the people in question (e.g., Jeff) do not respond appropriately to normal social cues, but take negative feedback as a kind of confirmation that they're doing the right thing.

It is further compounded when the subject matter is complex, non-trivial, and non-obvious to many or most observers.

And it's compounded even more when you are talking about a subject that, by definition, triggers profoundly anal-retentive impulses in people.

The inevitable result is a backlash. Personally, I've tried to respond by brute force of reason. Which isn't to say that I haven't been upset myself. But I did my best to subdue the beast through persuasion and logic... Totally ineffective.

When I am having a bad day, which happens sometimes, I might get provoked. But I am learning there are better ways to spend my time than beating my head against a wall.

If I may make a broader observation, I think progress in tube DIY, and high-end audio in general, have pretty much run their course. These are now mature technologies. You see it in the stagnation in product development and the relentless sameness of audio magazine articles. Back in the early eighties, there was real momentum in both audio design and how people thought about and reported on subjective listening. And in the nineties, there was a resurgence of work in tube DIY. That's old news now.

Today, you can buy "mid-fi" equipment that's better sounding than the high-end products of thirty years ago. I have a solid-state amplifier I built myself that just sounds great. I won't describe it; take my word on it. Tube amps may have a different presentation than solid state. Not necessarily better. It's hard to say any respectably designed equipment sounds bad anymore.

Obsession with tiny, or even imaginary, differences in sound is just an emotional illness the audio industry inflicts on its clientele to drive profits. I can't blame any audiophile for enjoying the quest, but let's admit it's about the gear, not the music. Why is the word "better" so important to audiophiles? What happened to "damned fine" and "more than good enough?"

I have an Italian upright piano at home, and once a week I play my teacher's Steinway. Her piano is old but in good shape and as it's aged it's developed a very complex tonal character. It really makes a difference. Just hearing that, I suppose, confirms to me that Sound Matters. On the other hand, everything I think is musically important in a performance I can hear on the most humble of systems.

Anyway, to get back to the original point, Medwin has a psychological problem. I won't try to diagnose it. Either you agree with me and know what I mean, or you don't see it and there's no value in belaboring the point. One should strive not to get drawn into that illness.

I disagree with those who say this has to be primarily an engineering-oriented forum. But I do agree that it seems to have lost balance.

Life stumbles on, regardless.

FWIW.

-Henry

 

RE: How about the silver thread below., posted on January 29, 2015 at 11:59:00
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
How about I fill everyone in...

You claimed that using silver wire in a amplifier was superior to copper and that anyone that disputed the fact with science was on shaky ground.

You then claimed that you proved it to yourself based on opinions of people you demonstrated it to. That was good enough because you couldn't be "arsed" to try.

What goes around...

Do you still have the silver and copper amplifiers? Maybe you could be "arsed" to take a few measurements?
How did you account for the different conduction of the two materials yet still make a copper and silver transformer identical so you could evaluate the two?
Seems to me one should use a slightly smaller silver wire if they were to really make any claims based on the color of the material rather then the physical properties or different wire densities of cores

Holier than thou indeed. lol


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RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:08:29
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Quote:"Obsession with tiny, or even imaginary, differences in sound is just an emotional illness the audio industry inflicts on its clientele to drive profits. I can't blame any audiophile for enjoying the quest, but let's admit it's about the gear, not the music. Why is the word "better" so important to audiophiles? What happened to "damned fine" and "more than good enough?"

This is pretty much like any interest that generates connoisseur-ship. eg My brother has a really great wine cellar with full cases of many vineyards best years. I love having dinner at his place because I can count on drinking fantastic wine. He can tell the difference between wines that taste identical to me because it's important to him. I have a slight edge in audio eqipment because that's more important to me.
Tiny differences are what makes the Steinway sound better to you than your upright, but for me, not being a player, it might not be obvious or important. I'm sure I'd find your Italian upright to be "damn fine" and "good enough".
I agree though that jeff's a dick.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:10:03
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
I generally agree with your post except for:

"I have an Italian upright piano at home, and once a week I play my teacher's Steinway. Her piano is old but in good shape and as it's aged it's developed a very complex tonal character. It really makes a difference. Just hearing that, I suppose, confirms to me that Sound Matters. On the other hand, everything I think is musically important in a performance I can hear on the most humble of systems."

Is it not possible that the Steinway is just better engineered?

How old is it? Were you there taking measurements when it was new?

I will duck now.
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FYI, "Edit Your Post" is NOT the same as deleting it..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:15:26
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12359
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
...all one has to do is click the "Edits" link at the bottom left of the edited post to see what came before...i.e. Your original post is there for all to read.

If you truly want to hide your post from the public you have to "delete" it and usually before there's a reply. Also probably safe to assume that even deleted posts are "archived" so appropriate authorities can have access to it if need be. Bottom line: count to ten and preview that post if you think you might change your mind and delete quickly if you do indeed change your mind.

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:15:54
I guess the thing is, connoisseurship is great as long as it doesn't drive you nuts and turn you into a jerk. People joke about "audiophilia nervosa," but for some audiophiles it's a real problem.

I would argue that when your fascination with a hobby grows to the point that it becomes an obsessive-compulsive disorder that interferes with your relationships with other people (even if those people exist only on an internet forum), it's time to step back and get a life.

-Henry

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:18:42
The Steinway is just a nicer piano. It's a completely different design from my upright. It doesn't strain credibility to claim it sounds different. Of course, the action is totally different, too. Uprights just play differently than grands.

I don't have the space for a grand piano, otherwise I would have bought one.

-Henry

 

RE: What's happened to TDIY? ... nothing, posted on January 29, 2015 at 12:49:54



We have no problems with the way things are here.

- LSES & Low DCR tube amp builders

 

+1 (nt), posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:02:45
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
nada aqui

 

obsession(s) with tiny differenences..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:31:29
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Exactly why do you continue to post?
Aren't these 'tiny' obsessions what this is all about?
While I do not endorse everything Jeff/Dennis posit - the fact remains that they continue to post real ideas and/or schematics...and, they encourage listening as the final arbitor...
On the other hand: you (and a number of others) choose to loudly wallow in your indulgent self-righteous superior knowledge vomit, while never really posting any of your life-changing schematics.


 

RE: What's happened to TDIY? ... nothing, posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:35:30
rage
Audiophile

Posts: 793
Joined: December 17, 2010
yeah I like this forum too... jeff can be a troll, TK and Tre' can put him in his place regularly... sort of a balance.


building another amp DT.. will get to measuring in a few days! :)

 

No they don't!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:42:07
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"While I do not endorse everything Jeff/Dennis posit - the fact remains that they continue to post real ideas and/or schematics..."

It's the same old crap year after year!

"inch of wire can wreck a musical experience"
"anything over 20ohms DCR is lofi"
"music has immeasurable rise times, faster than even a 2ghz scope could measure"

There is nothing new or groundbreaking from these guys. Never has been!

 

RE: obsession(s) with tiny differenences..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:45:38
Them's fighting words. I don't like you either.

I used to enjoy talking here about tube audio design. It was fun to share thoughts and ideas with like-minded people. It stopped being fun when the discussion got taken over by a small number of people with personality disorders.

Like I said, either you see it or you don't.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about life-changing schematics. There are no life-changing schematics. Every meaningful tube amp schematic has been drawn; every combination of component values has been tried. It's all retrospective now.

The problem, IMHO, is that a bunch of self-important assholes have decided that their kindergarten playground shovel-diggings somehow equate to Life-Changing Art. It's crap.

Learning engineering changed my life. Learning to play piano changed my life. Sitting on the couch with my chin on my fist listening intently and seriously for the subtle differences in transient inner detail has no appeal to me.

OK, maybe it's fun for some people. I used to enjoy it, too, until I got sick of it. Let's just not pretend being a golden-ear is something profound. It ain't.

Beethoven is profound. Chopin is profound. Schubert is profound. (Vivaldi is... meh.)

Tweaking is not profound.

-Henry

 

resignation, posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:50:01
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
So...once again, you're admitting that you have no schematics of value to post.

 

OK - but, where are your schematics? (nt), posted on January 29, 2015 at 13:52:54
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
NT

 

RE: resignation, posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:09:27
I have many, many things of value to post here that would help people understand and enjoy their Tube DIY hobby better, and help them to create better (though probably not original) schematics.

However, the things I have to say aren't necessarily simple or easy to understand, and I don't feel welcome discussing them here. Thanks largely in party to people like you and Jeff.

Overall, I have realized that "high-end audio," which was always pompous and self-aggrandizing, has become stagnant and, increasingly, musically irrelevant.

I still respect people like Stephen R, Dave Slagle, and many others, who pursue their high-end hobby with intelligence and clarity of mind. I may have grown tired of the pretense of the "high-end", but I have nothing against people for whom this remains a compelling pastime.

I will always feel profound disdain for those who choose to be willfully ignorant, and who try to justify it to themselves by attacking others.

-Henry

 

Here's a start:, posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:13:28
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006



My KT88 monoblock power supply. Driver regulator is on another page.

 

'the things I have to say aren't necessarily simple or easy to understand', posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:18:14
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Yah - perhaps one day we will all be able to comprehend your magnificence.





 

RE: Nobody competent here ever argued against low DCR!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:30:52
Eli Duttman
Audiophile

Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
I thought the idea was to obtain a low impedance PSU, with plenty of current reserves. There are many ways to achieve the goal. Low DCR in filter inductors definitely makes a positive contribution. As you said, low DCR is not a be all/end all.

Like it or not, the Laws of Physics define the limits of the "field" upon which we "play". Get the Physics right, 1st, and then start tweaking. We are constrained, but there is lots of room for maneuver.

"Don't bother me with facts, I know the TRUTH!" is an attitude I have a major bone of contention with.


Eli D.

 

It is indeed a start..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:33:59
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
But, do you really consider it to be significantly (and/or superior) to a bazillion other approaches to power supply designs?
More importantly: have you listened?

 

Thanks for posting Henry..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:48:17
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
It's great to hear from you. I, and I'm sure others, miss your posts here. You are a true voice of reason.

.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: obsession(s) with tiny differenences..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:50:06
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
Where are YOUR "life changing" schematics????.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

Time for a sub forum, posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:51:12
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
As an "M", why don't you, Dennis and Jeff talk to moderators about a LSES sub forum so the rest of us don't have to be subjected to it?

 

life changing schematics, posted on January 29, 2015 at 14:57:00
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
You may see a number of my schematics on the Yahoo 'Boat Anchors' forum.

If you will send me an email, I will be glad to supply additional schematics - please indicate the amplifier design/voltage/current you are inquiring about.

 

How it sounds?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:02:00
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
Analyze it. It a big stiff DC B+ supply for the finals. The driver stage has a tight MOSFET regulator. The bias supply is well filtered and regulated. You may note the separate AC power connector for the filament supply. That is fed from a Sola ferroresonant transformer to keep the filaments at 6.2v via R16. I found new tubes to be much less forgiving to high filament voltage than NOS.

Now what about all the solid sate stuff? Does the use of a timer IC and a few transistors color the sound? Some audiophool will say it does!

That circuit is modern protection. Lose the filament buss and no power for the B+ transformer relay. Analyze the network of Q2, D5, R13, R14. Lose the bias voltage and the B+ supply goes down as well.

 

To answer your edited post:, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:09:10
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006



"But, do you really consider it to be significantly (and/or superior) to a bazillion other approaches to power supply designs?
More importantly: have you listened?"

I don't consider it superior to anything?

Did I imply that?

I am rather proud if that protection circuit but it's nothing any competent engineer or technician couldn't devise - perhaps even improve on.

As for listening what kind of a question is that? I go to all that trouble and don't listen to it? Here are the three KT88 and 6V6 amps in a 5.1 HT system in my home from 2006 to 2014. That unit at the top with the silver cans was the three channel active crossover. All 12AX7 cathode followers and LF/HF the filter networks are in those plug in cans which were former crystal ovens.

It's been replaced by DIY SS amps just last year. Was time to build something new.

And the crossover is now a MiniDSP unit. I am having blast experimenting with FIR and IIR filters. Puts some of that long forgotten college math to use finally!

 

WTF?!?!?!?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:10:31
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
What are you talking about?
I challenge you to find any of my posts that were not directed at trying to assist the DIY community.
I sell (at most) five amplifiers per year, and have never once hawked my amplifiers on this site.

 

what kind of question is that? , posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:37:14
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
All I can suggest at this point is to compare it to a non-regulated mercury-vapor rectified L-filter...and let us all know what you think.

 

RE: 'the things I have to say aren't necessarily simple or easy to understand', posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:37:29
It's not about me.

There is a universe of knowledge and ideas out there. You can go through your life feeling proud of how you roll caps and torture innocent chokes and transformers with triple strands of Kimber TCSS. Or you can open your eyes and at least see the possibilities of what those ideas can tell you.

The problem is, once you realize how much there is to know, it tends to make you feel small and humble, not proud.

Audio is inconsequential, but living in a world controlled by people who take pride in their ignorance of truly important things is painful, indeed.

-Henry

 

RE: WTF?!?!?!?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:40:17
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
What your suggest would be hard to do.....fortunately I am married. Anyway, you don't have to support Dennis and Jeff. I was just thinking that a sub forum would be a way to clear some of the noise here. Do you think a sub forum would have some merit? A "Modern Power Supply" forum or something like that?

 

RE: To answer your edited post:, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:42:28
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Thanks for posting. The time and effort is impressive. Nice to be passionate about something without shoving it down everyone's throat.

 

Why?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:43:05
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000

 

What's the point?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:46:27
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
That big nasty dangerous landfill hazard MV rectifier would sure look cool in the right setting but I'm not sure how it would improve the sound of my KT88 amps over my PS?

What will the MV rectifier do over the Cree CTFW rectifier I used? I'll tell you one thing, it could spit out a lot of RFI!

P.S. I would have a bit of a mounting problem too. MV's don't work horizontal AFAIK?

 

thanks for your post, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:48:27
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
But: I have not advocated 'modern power supplies' (nor do I even know what that means), and I do not consider my posts to be noise.

 

RE: a new amp? , posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:51:54
Err...what you got brewing?

 

indeed, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:52:01
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Its all about you.

 

RE: That part that bothers me more..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:52:14
Russ57
Audiophile

Posts: 3754
Location: South Florida
Joined: November 16, 2001
Hery had been through wars with Jute in the past so he saw something coming that I didn't. He was right. Regardless I can live with Jeff and his power supply idea. Two thgings really bother me though.

Firts isn't related especially to this forum. That is when guys use this place to further their name to grow a home business selling services and goods to others. I feel they often encourage others to state how great the work they did was so newbies fall into thinking they re the best to service their gear and/or buy tubes/parts from.

Second, when did tube DIY forum become the place to discuss modding/fixing commercial gear? I mean why are we dicussing repairs to Cary and such other names? We have a vintage section for that.

In the past I came here because I wanted to learn more about electronics. My work required it and I wasn't willing to go to school and start back at ohm's law. There were so many that helped, and many used monikers so I can't name them, but guys like Henry P, Mark K, Dave S, Dave C, Douglas P, etc, etc, kindly gave of their time. They never belittled me. Yet at the same time, much like with any good teacher, I knew I had to show understanding and bring my A game. I am eternaly greatful. I learned more than I think I could articulate. I'd like to think on occasions I said something that made them proud and made them feel their efforts were not wasted (probably kidding myself here).

It saddens me that I don't see that level of mentorship anymore. There are some like Naz and Paul J trying. Maybe it is more a lack of willing students? Plenty of things I still need to learn. Love a good eductaion on nested/multiple feedback loops and how to calculate output impedance/THD change. And one of these days I'd like to learn transistors and build a solid state amp.

In short I can ignore what I want. Much harder to pay attention to something that simply isn't here anymore.

 

Want to see a modern power supply? Buy an Iphone! (nt), posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:53:02
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
.

 

the point, posted on January 29, 2015 at 15:53:46
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Have you tried it?
Have you listened?

 

Why do I need to try it?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:02:45
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
I just asked you who apparently has, what the performance gain is. If you can give me some reasons in engineering speak why an MV would be superior to the Cree diodes I'm all ears.

But from my knowledge MV rectifiers which do have a lower voltage drop than diode tubes, they are no match for even a lowly 1N4007 in this application. They do (did) excel in high power applications like subway traction systems and transmitters. But even that was eclipsed by silicon diodes as far back as the 1960s.

Again just what am I to expect in performance gain before I go on a wild goose chase to even find good MVs these days let alone build out the support structure to use them properly?

 

RE: indeed, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:07:35
Brilliant. Just brilliant. Cripes.

 

no expectations, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:20:01
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
You should try it if you are curious about exploring sound and the possibilities of higher fidelity.

However, if you are fearful of having your preconceptions challenged, you should run in the opposite direction.


 

MV, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:24:50
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Jim,

Did you run I the same circle as the cat out in Oregon that run 211s with MV rectifiers?
I knew him about 15 years ago. I believe he was a rec. audio guy. I don't recall his name

 

RE: thanks for your post, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:27:20
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Ask Dennis and Jeff. Their LSES idea is part of their modern power supply concept. Their ideology...not mine.

 

This is BS!, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:28:31
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
You suggest I buy rare and expensive components like MV rectifiers. I simply ask what the expected improvements would be. I further point out some well documented information about MV rectifiers. I have no personal experience, I have never used them.

I just asked, twice now, politely I beleive, what the benefits are over modern diodes.

And this is your sarcastic response:

"You should try it if you are curious about exploring sound and the possibilities of higher fidelity.

However, if you are fearful of having your preconceptions challenged, you should run in the opposite direction."

 

RE: life changing schematics, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:29:19
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
How about a brief explanation of how to drill a hole in a piece of wood and glue a capacitor in the hole. Of course, I would like a short primer in how to price and market said snake oil.

 

Some have missed part...., posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:33:42
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
of Naz's point.
It's not only the LSES crowd.

The pendulum has swung from Medwin group to the - I'm right and you're ignorant, highly unbalanced egos of the 'Educated beyond the ability to comprehend' crowd. You(collectively) sadly get some kind of jollies in bashing others for offering input that is derived from actual listening.

Those handful of keyboard bullies who are not willing to try what is not printed in a 50yr old EE book need to understand the rule of boundaries. This is not an EE forum and it's not a Physics forum. If you unwilling to 'Do It Yourself' then stop building your own scientific data to rebuke the hands on findings of others. In simpleton terms, don't hijack the thread with your self contrived negative data which ruins it for all but your ilk.

As for the LSES crowd, the Bored has made it clear, by their lack of action, they are here to stay.
I too am not without guilt but have learned to 'evolve' and try the unconventional as well as let others be.

STAY OFF THREADS UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO ADD

 

OTS, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:36:52
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I'm in metro Atlanta, GA - the only Oregon (Portland area) tube guys I recall are Gary Pimm and Ed Billeci.
I know that Lynn Olsen was originally from there as well...

Does that help?













 

polite BS/sarcasm, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:40:47
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Exactly how does one kindly answer such a question?
The benefits are that it sounds better.

 

RE: OTS, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:41:59
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Yes. Crazy Eddie. He was into MV rectifiers a long time ago. Is he still around?

 

RE: WTF?!?!?!?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:46:43
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Jeff counts you as a compatriot from the old days. I believe he thinks that anyone that wrote a letter to Sound Practices to be in his camp. If that's not the case, blame him.
I have noticed a distinct trend from a number of the "old guard"(and I mean guys from the '90's) to stand beside each other as though their dogma was somehow related to a holy grail type of belief system. I have all of the SP issues and read them religiously and still believe in the attitude. I also think that guys like JC Morrison, Herb Reichert and Thomas Meyer still know more about tube audio design than 99% of the posters here. Specifically including JM, DF, and you JD. So, go ahead and support your buddies, they and you need it. You sell snake oil, promote magic beans and try to subvert real understanding of electronics and the appreciation of music.
Naturally, I expect you to refute these claims and I encourage you to do so,it will only fan the fires of opposition.

 

fixing a hole, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:47:14
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
1) find a piece of wood
2) drill a hole larger than the diameter of the capacitor you are wishing to mount
3) fill area around capacitor with beeswax (or paraffin)
4) enjoy

 

Crazy Eddie, posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:58:48
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
That's a good question.
Ed and I used to actively trade parts back in the '90s - I saw him at several of the VSACs, but lost track of him about 10 years ago...would love to know where he is.
He always had killer stuff!!!!!

 

Have you listened, posted on January 29, 2015 at 17:16:12
to gusser's supply?

Dave

 

I have listened..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 17:19:49
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
to many, many similar supplies...and they all sound like absolute crap compared to a simple MV-rectified dual L-filter.

Have you compared?


 

RE: I have listened..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 17:37:53
I haven't and I'm not making any claims about either. Trying to get a basis for your comments on how his supply sounds though.

Sounds like you have a preference and you know what it is, do you think everyone should have the same preference?

Dave

 

RE: That part that bothers me more..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 17:41:24
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12363
Joined: May 14, 2002
Good students are as important for teachers as good teachers are for students. The Low Inductive Energy Storage PS discussions were tiresome. As was another 'issue'. The latter I underestimated, and decidedly came out on the short end. Meh, I figured, in a place like that I can stand to not contribute to. Wish I could find Dave C though...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

was it not as it was in the old days?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:01:07
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Jeff Medwin is among my oldest of audio acquaintances; and I will never forget/deny his influence.

One of my very earliest audio recollections goes back to around 1981: I had a highly-modified Stereo 70 that I imagined could not be significantly improved upon; and, Jeff recommended that I replace the external (multi-Farad) capacitor bank with a single 100 uf oil cap - I thought he was nuts - but, oh my God, it was a HUGE improvement!
More importantly, it is significant to recognize that this was at a time when absolutely no one acknowledged that oil caps (or less capacitance) might actually sound better.

While I do not automatically endorse everything Jeff says: he has great ears, is a true mensch, and is totally dedicated to helping the DIY Audio community.

For me: I believe in honesty, and I believe in supporting whatever gets you closer to reveling in music.

 

should everyone have the same preference?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:09:15
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
For full-range musical reproduction, I believe so.

 

RE: That part that bothers me more..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:30:44
Thanks, Russ.

-Henry

 

Is that the best you can do?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:32:28
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"Exactly how does one kindly answer such a question?
The benefits are that it sounds better."

I ask for some technical information why I should use MV rectifiers and that is all you can offer? I even point out some of the documented deficiencies with MV rectifiers and you accuse me of "running away"

Why can't we carry on a technical engineering discussion as to what differences the MV rectifiers are producing in the final DC output that changes the amps performance?

I think I know the answer. That is, you don't know what is going on in those power supplies from an engineering viewpoint.

You are just another Dennis Fraker!

You sell a few amplifiers you build. Probably circuits from some old magazine and you soldered some parts together and it made sound. Then you sprinkle it with all kinds of audiophile voodoo to kick the price up a few grand.

But you have no clue how these circuits actually work. Your insecurity speaks volumes as well. I post a schematic as you requested and the first thing you do is to challenge me as to why I think it's a superior design. I never said it was. Then you say it sounds like crap! How do you know?

What a phony!

 

Whoa, posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:33:43
That explains your position, not a view I can get with. I wonder how you feel about people that feel similarly but about a different set of preferences.

Dave

 

RE: Thanks for posting Henry..., posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:34:41
Thanks for the kind words...

-Henry

 

my multiple insecurities quake at your machismo , posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:53:36
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I suggested that you try an approach that I believe sounds better. I am unsure what my suggestions have to do with Dennis Fraker...or anyone else.

My sole motivation was to assist (you and) the DIY community in exploring possible sonic improvements; and the reality is that I do not know why MV rectifiers sound better - nor do I believe anyone else really knows the answer to that question.

But just so we're clear: I don't give a rat's ass if you try it or not.

 

RE: Whoa, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:05:55
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I am certainly open to other's opinions/experiences; but if you've built literally dozens of power supplies and find one approach consistently sounds best, it is folly to pretend otherwise.

 

RE: Whoa, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:08:52
"you think it sounds best" is somewhat different from "it does sound best" or "everyone else should think it sounds best".

Dave

 

YMMV, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:12:36
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
But I've engaged in literally dozens of listening tests, and the MV rectified L-filter always wins.

 

RE: YMMV, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:17:04
....to you.

Dave

 

RE: YMMV, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:21:56
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
Who wants to hear a rectifier? lol

If you can hear that, what you are hearing the windings of the generator at your local power plant.

Maybe they are wound in silver?

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