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Polystyrenes as coupling caps

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Posted on January 15, 2015 at 16:04:50
xaudiomanx
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 Thoughts? Better than the K-40's?

We all have to remember that the K-40's were nonexistent or a factor in audio until they were praised By "The Mikeyman." Others used them but Mikey made them a force to deal with. They are very cheap as compared to others out there and maybe all feel for the money they are a great deal for a good sounding product.

I know a lot of DIYer's suggest polystyrene in the RIAA but how about for coupling?

Now that Blackdog made his comments on them I am starting wonder myself.

 

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RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 15, 2015 at 17:31:48
unclestu
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 electrically polystyrene has a lower dielectric memory than even teflon. There are other factors however.....

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 15, 2015 at 18:13:52
xaudiomanx
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 Good or bad for coupling.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 15, 2015 at 18:42:22
banpuku
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 I use them as coupling caps in my power amp with great success. Musical, warm, rich, extended. I wish they were more explosive, dynamically. Otherwise great.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 15, 2015 at 18:44:23
unclestu
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 CCJ preferred styrenes over teflon for that reason.then it was revealed styrene had dioxin as a byproduct and then firstnwirld production stopped. Heard production moved to China though.

When US made ( CJ were made by Southern F Dyne),styrene's had superb highs with pristine detail. That being said. Tension of the windings makes a huge difference sonically. So other parameters can out weigh material choices.

 

Everyone has their favorites--I like polystyrene, posted on January 15, 2015 at 19:08:36
garymuffley
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 This may be a blond/brunette question and the result is always dependent on the system context. That said, I have used the the MIT RTX (usually in smaller values--.1 to .47 and Rel Cap RT series. They seem to deliver a transparent and focused sound stage, with predictable results. I have tried the russian teflon and the Solen tin foil and teflon and prefer polystyrene. As always YMMV and I am sure others will differ in their preferences.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 15, 2015 at 19:40:16
rick_m
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 They are what I would use for most small-signal applications, very low dielectric absorption and cheap. For production they can pose problems because they melt at a low temperature and will disolve easily in most any chlorinated hydrocarbon. But that's not an issue at home and even in production they are OK if you control your wave profile and cleaning.

Their biggest advantage is when there are in-band audio voltages across them. If you are implementing something like an analog tone control or phase-shifter then they can provide clear, clean sound due to their low dielectric absorption. As coupling caps they are good too if the load is fairly high impedance. Not so good if significant audio current has to go through them because they are usually fairly resistive due to their wrapped construction they aren't well suited to coupling low impedance circuits. If you can find ones with extended foil (where an end cap essentially contacts each wrap) the parasitic resistance will be much lower. Stacked foil is good to but I don't know if you can get PS caps in that form.

Looking at coupling caps from the other direction, or at least a different cant, if they have such a low impedance WRT the source and load that there is essentially no signal voltage across them then they can be most anything because they are essentially out of the circuit after the power-on transient has cleared.

I really like PS Caps. for the higher impedance parts of designs. I think they sound good...

Passive parts are interesting and can make or break a design. We must remember that there is NO SUCH THING as a pure resistor, inductor or capacitor. A healthy level of cynicism goes a long way towards achieving good results because every component is actually a network.

Rick

 

copper foil polystyrene, posted on January 15, 2015 at 20:59:23
bouncy ball
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 is there anybody know where I can find them this day?
thanks

 

Is Anyone Listening?, posted on January 15, 2015 at 21:42:09
Triode_Kingdom
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 "if they have such a low impedance WRT the source and load that there is essentially no signal voltage across them then they can be most anything because they are essentially out of the circuit"

This simply doesn't get enough airplay. It's the one fundamental law of physics that the boutique crowd doesn't want to know about. If a cap is so conductive that there is virtually no AC voltage drop across it, it imparts no sound to the music. It can be teflon, styrene or electrolytic. No difference. Apply this concept to power supply caps, and all the mumbo jumbo melts away.

 

RE: Is Anyone Listening?, posted on January 16, 2015 at 07:38:12
dave slagle
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 If a cap is so conductive that there is virtually no AC voltage drop across it, it imparts no sound to the music.

by this logic, wire is so conductive there is virtually no AC across it so.....

 

And ground loops would be ___..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 07:44:02
Ivan303
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 (fill in the blank)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 16, 2015 at 07:44:24
Lew
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 I have several polystyrene film and foils once made by Pacific Audio Supply (I think, in any case, the acronym is "PAS"). I have two values, 0.22uF/630V and 2.0uF/250V. Both types are largish for their uF value, dense, very tightly wound, and there is no attempt at a commercially beautiful exterior, a la Mundorf or Vcap. Atma-sphere used to use the 0.22uFs as optional coupling capacitors, before they went to VCaps. I bought a gaggle of the 2.0uF ones from PAS directly for use in a speaker crossover. In my experience, the only thing slightly better than the 0.22uF ones for coupling have been REL TFT teflons. MIT RTXs are another very good polystyrene capacitor, and REL also make polystyrenes (RT type) that are probably good too.

So, to answer Xaudio's question, I would say that it depends on the source and quality of manufacture. As I mentioned below, I bought some Russian polystyrenes. They are much less "dense" than the PAS capacitors, encased in metal, and they do not sound so good, which is to say that I really disliked them. I know PAS is out of the business; if REL is also no longer making Polystyrenes, you probably can still get RTXs and RTs on the aftermarket.

 

He said "AC voltage drop across it" Drop., posted on January 16, 2015 at 08:07:45
Chip647
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 The goal is to have as little A/C drop as possible. When you drop A/C unevenly across the audio spectrum, you have colorization/distortion. The best cap is one you cannot hear.

Back before everyone went insane, there were comparisons of caps with the standard being a piece of wire. If you could detect differences from the wire to switching in a cap, the cap introduced distortions. Some love distortion, but caps can only take away signal. Spending huge money on caps is an exercise in brand/psychoacoustics/having too much money.

 

"If a cap is so conductive that there is virtually no AC voltage drop across it, …", posted on January 16, 2015 at 08:24:29
Lew
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 This makes perfect sense, but making the judgement is not so easily done by the average bloke.
So how does Joe Blow audiophile measure AC voltage vs frequency and compare input signal to output signal in that regard, for a capacitor? Seems one could do it with a signal generator, a dual display oscilloscope, and a computer program or distortion analyzer to visualize a sweep of the audio spectrum and beyond, but not many have all that gear or know how to use it.
Or can you rank capacitors for this property a priori, based on knowing their construction?

Thus it is not hard to understand why many fall back on the idea that if it costs a lot it must be good.

 

We've used them for years- still do., posted on January 16, 2015 at 08:40:23
Ralph
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 They work fine as coupling caps and also in EQ networks.

There are some good comments elsewhere in this thread.

 

RE: He said "AC voltage drop across it" Drop., posted on January 16, 2015 at 09:36:57
drlowmu
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 And I ( being audio mentored by Bob Fulton in the late 1970s ) need to ask the question, " what KIND of piece of wire "????

Cheers !!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Is Anyone Listening?, posted on January 16, 2015 at 09:41:27
Triode_Kingdom
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 "by this logic, wire is so conductive there is virtually no AC across it so....."

I remember a test of speaker wire in the early '80s by a major audio publication in which huge diameter Monster cable was compared to wire as small as 18 ga. At shorter lengths, like 25' or less, NO ONE could consistently tell them apart in double-blind tests. Compare that to all the hoopla about wire types in amplifiers when lengths of less than six inches are being discussed in circuits drawing milliamps. The only conclusion I can draw is that these forums attract more than their share of delusional idiots.

 

"by this logic, wire is so conductive there is virtually no AC across it so....", posted on January 16, 2015 at 09:56:13
Steve O
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 Exactly!

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 16, 2015 at 10:15:46
Caucasian Blackplate
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 Polystyrene caps are great. If you can find the voltage and value that you need, give them a shot.

I don't think they get a lot of love from the cap addicts because they aren't expensive enough and Polystyrene doesn't have the boutique ring that paper in oil or Teflon does. They are also somewhat prone to melting, but that's avoidable with careful construction.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 16, 2015 at 10:32:45
Garg0yle
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 I agree with these sentiments.
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Try a plastic power supply, posted on January 16, 2015 at 10:36:22
richardl
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 get rid of the electrolytics even there and the sound is clearer. Although measurements to show why that is true are beyond my equipment's capabilities. Others have in the past shown that electrolytics are not so well behaved as the plastic caps. As for flavour, supposedly polyethylene is better than polystyrene but, the difference is not as great as that between the poly's and electrolytics.

 

a reminder re: "delusional idiots", posted on January 16, 2015 at 10:52:57
Jim Dowdy
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 This post is from someone who insists you cannot hear the difference in a low dcr power supply choke (approx 20 ohms or less) vs one of several thousand ohms.

 

RE: a reminder re: "delusional idiots", posted on January 16, 2015 at 11:03:16
Garg0yle
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 For someone who claims to be a guru of sorts perhaps you should take a fundamental course on electronics.

Case in point:

If you unplug an amp that has a sufficient choke and capacitance while it is running for a few moments you will hear the amp running without the choke.
Guess what, it sounds exactly the same until the volume starts fades away.

So much for your low DCR choke theory! lol


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RE: Try a plastic power supply, posted on January 16, 2015 at 11:13:35
Triode_Kingdom
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 "Others have in the past shown that electrolytics are not so well behaved as the plastic caps."

Not in the context of this discussion. All we have are statements based on unscientific tests using amateur methodologies that were disproved decades ago.






 

Stop Misquoting Me to Validate Your Nonsense, posted on January 16, 2015 at 11:20:36
Triode_Kingdom
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 What I have said is that the low DCR supplies constantly shoved down our throats on this forum have the capacity to make music sound like crap. I have also said that if the last capacitor is sufficiently large to bypass all AC to ground, the choke before it can't be heard. If you have even one scientific reason why these statements aren't true, present it.

 

+1, posted on January 16, 2015 at 11:23:44
Triode_Kingdom
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 Haven't tried them for coupling, but it's only a matter of time. They're terrific in most other applications.

 

for sand... that would be fine... for SET... that would be waaay too much capacitance, lectrolytics are obsole, posted on January 16, 2015 at 11:39:33
Cleantimestream
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 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: He said "AC voltage drop across it" Drop., posted on January 16, 2015 at 12:39:43
dave slagle
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 When you drop A/C unevenly across the audio spectrum, you have colorization/distortion

hey... If you add the word unevenly then I agree but to attempt to approach "virtually no AC voltage drop across it" all you need is a bigger valued cap.

dave

 

Validation..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 13:16:25
Jim Dowdy
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 My nonsense?!?

In order to avoid misquoting you, I am requesting that you reiterate your statement regarding one's inability to hear the difference between power supply inductors measuring thousands of ohms vs a low dcr (approx 20 ohms or less) choke.

 

a fundamental course in electronics, posted on January 16, 2015 at 13:44:52
Jim Dowdy
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 I have made no claims about "being a guru;" however, I do claim to be a music lover with functional hearing.

I have a BS in Mathematics with an EE minor (and a minor in Philosophy as well).
I also have an MA in Mathematics and ran a tube electronics company for 7+ years.

But: credentials are not the issue here, and (in my opinion,) your 'case in point' has almost nothing to do with analyzing the sonic considerations that accompany designing a power supply.
Furthermore, your chosen 'case in point' is best illustrated by super-high capacitance power supplies...which is generally/perversely the worst-sounding way to build a power supply!

All I am suggesting to Asylum readers is this: try it both ways and let us know what you think.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 16, 2015 at 13:50:20
Paul Joppa
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 "... if they have such a low impedance WRT the source and load that there is essentially no signal voltage across them then they can be most anything because they are essentially out of the circuit..."

Agreed - if there is nonlinearity, it will manifest as a voltage difference across the cap. But that still leaves "essentially no voltage" undefined, so I will turn the statement around to say that if there is no audible artifact then the signal voltage across the cap is essentially zero. I can think of no more relevant definition of "essentially zero", nor one that is more easily measured.

Listening still counts.

 

Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:00:51
Naz
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 or other components for that matter, it would save me a lot of time and money:)

Cheers

 

RE: a fundamental course in electronics, posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:10:44
pictureguy
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 Jim,
In a couple break in threads up in amps section, I've tried to get some consideration for the idea that PEOPLE are part of the circuit and NOT an immovable one, at that.
IOW, changes in sound are ALSO changes in YOU.

Does this help or hinder? Any traction with you or spinning of wheels?


Too much is never enough

 

I have, Empirically... and you are correct-nT, posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:19:25
Cleantimestream
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 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: a fundamental course in electronics, posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:33:36
GEO
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  Since: September 9, 2000
 Has anyone disputed claims that Jeff andvDennis and othersvprefer the sound of a wobbly supply. Their view is that their wobbly supply sounds great to people so who cares if it wobbles? An equalizer sounds great to people also.

 

a 'wobbly' supply, posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:38:41
Jim Dowdy
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 Having established that I do not require a basic course in electronics, are you now changing the subject?

This post is not about Dennis Fraker or Jeff Medwin (or anyone else).

While I understand multiple interactions re: power supply elements: are you suggesting that all lower dcr supply (of similar inductance) must be inherently more 'wobbly?'

 

RE: a 'wobbly' supply, posted on January 16, 2015 at 14:55:57
GEO
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 What Jeff and Dennis seem to like is wobbly. You may like something different. I should not have lumped you together ith them.

 

ars longa vita brevis, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:07:41
Jim Dowdy
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 I strongly prefer to be lumped in with those who celebrate music vs those who advocate high-end-audio colonics.

 

RE: ars longa vita brevis, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:17:08
GEO
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 I like both. Not sure how much Jeff / Dennis love music. I can listen to very old crappy records. It's the spirit of the music. Someone saying 1 inch of the wrong wire destroys the music, is someone that I find hard to believe is invested in the music. I love jazz. Love it and breath it.

 

RE: ars longa vita brevis, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:18:10
Garg0yle
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 What a cop out lol.
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cop outs, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:25:01
Jim Dowdy
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 Enjoy your high colonic(s)...the DIY community anxiously awaits your latest/greatest audio contributions.

 

RE: cop outs, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:33:54
Garg0yle
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 Bringing charlatans into the light of day is service enough.


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best post of 2015!, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:34:31
Jim Dowdy
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 GEO:
A magnificent post - in my estimation, obtaining the best out of 'old crappy records' is 95+% about what this is all about.
Jim

 

RE: best post of 2015!, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:39:54
GEO
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 It's like the vinyl rabbit hole. You can keep going down, down and down and forget what ithe pursuit is about....you can spend a lifetime on cartridge loading. I can listen to old records with Jo Jones using a phone book for drums.

 

perhaps you meant charlatans?, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:40:25
Jim Dowdy
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 And, who are those charlatans?

 

RE: perhaps you meant charlatans?, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:51:29
Garg0yle
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 Thanks spelling corrected.


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Am glad I can... music is continually improved through empirical research.-nT, posted on January 16, 2015 at 15:58:53
Cleantimestream
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 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 16:54:10
Tre'
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 I have a SET that's connected to a speaker with a -3db point of 200Hz. (I bi amp with woofers under that)

I placed a Russian silver mica cap that would cause a electrical -3db point of 50Hz in series with the input signal.

I heard no difference. Understand I was not trying to listen to what the cap might have done to the sound at the lower end of the speaker's response. I was listen to and for any change in the middle and the upper end of the speaker's response.

I jumped the cap with a wire and heard no difference. I cut the jumper wire and heard no difference.

I haven't tried this with other caps but I have to say I was impressed.

I have heard (or thought I'd heard) differences between coupling cap in the past but I could not hear the difference between a piece of wire and that mica cap.

I don't know what, if anything, any of this means. I just thought I would share.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 19:32:32
Naz
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 Hmmm, I don't know how you can do a fair comparison if you are already filtering out some LF through the cap. I mean the sound MUST have been a little thinner through the silver mica compared to the piece of wire, making it difficult to assess the any real differences.

I personally perceive most differences between decent caps as tonal rather than distortion per se. Some sounding honky, others bright or rolled of at one or both extremes. A well balanced cap is notable for it's lack of colourations, accentuations or dips in any part of the spectrum and loses nothing at the frequency extremes.

The other interesting thing is how often I read similar descriptions of a cap's sound from other people whose opinions I value to my own.

FWIW, my personal experience with silver micas is that they are good but slightly favouring top end.

Naz

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 16, 2015 at 20:47:15
Tre'
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 "I mean the sound MUST have been a little thinner through the silver mica compared to the piece of wire, making it difficult to assess the any real differences"

The LF filter was at 50Hz and the speaker (midrange) rolls off at 200Hz by itself.

The 50Hz filter would be completely out of the picture by 500Hz.

I was not listening for differences at 500Hz and below. I was listening for the cymbals, etc.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Is Anyone Listening?, posted on January 17, 2015 at 08:14:13
dave slagle
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 So you believe that all wire sounds the same?

dave

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 17, 2015 at 12:18:29
Triode_Kingdom
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 It would be really helpful if people who claim to hear differences between caps, resistors, wire, etc. would A) conduct the tests in a meaningful way, i.e. blind AB testing with multiple listeners and B) make basic measurements to see if scenarios in which differences are confirmed by listeners are in fact the result of easily measurable changes to performance.

There was a post here recently in which the author claimed oil caps in his PS sounded awful. He was so adamant, I suspect the caps were bad, or that their particular value was creating a resonance of some sort. Unfortunately, without measurements and component specifics, amateurs draw the wrong conclusion. Oil caps in power supplies must sound bad. :)


 

Dishonesty, posted on January 17, 2015 at 12:20:14
Triode_Kingdom
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 "In order to avoid misquoting you, I am requesting that you reiterate your statement"

The fact that you don't have it at hand makes you a liar. I'm not the first person here to notice that trait.

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 17, 2015 at 13:13:14
Stephen R
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 I've done exactly that. There are verifiable differences.

This isn't magic. It's sooooo obvious, I sincerely wonder why anyone with any intelligence would dispute it.

You can even measure it if you really want. Passive parts ain't perfect so they do measure differently and sound different. I've seen results. Have I them to hand to post here? No.

So shoot me and the others because we can't prove it to your satisfaction. To be honest, I have better things to do with my life.

No amount of disparaging remarks from people like you on this matter will make any difference so fire away, call me names, run me down on a technical level, show us your superiority.

Honestly, people like you, that Garg0yle and others like that and LowMu really are all the same type. You so want to be right about something and you'll go to any length to shove your "right" down our throats. OK you're right, There, satisified now.

Blimey. Back to lurk mode. Jim D and others like him are saints to put up with the nonsense round here.

 

First light, posted on January 17, 2015 at 13:32:32
unclestu
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 on the sound of caps was an article in Audio MAgazine: written by Jung and Marsh. IIRC. They explored various electrical parameters which affect sound.

Should be required reading. It's on the net, BTW

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 17, 2015 at 13:47:17
Garg0yle
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 Actually to correct you Stephan R, I don't have any sort of agenda to shove down your throat, I am simply a hobbyist trying to garner technical information from a technical forum.

I have observed this forum from the sidelines for years, it was quite difficult as a amateur beginning down this path to sort out what the bullshit is, why there is such conflicting information.

I am now getting back for having wasted time chasing unicorns.
It grew tiresome of reading technical threads disrupted by charlatans.

If somebody doesn't respect the public enough to tell the truth, or to pay for advertisements the traditional way, then I don't feel bad at all for attempting to disprove myths and folklore from these people.

This is a technical forum, not a witchcraft forum, nor is it high school.
I could care less about popularity. Science is not a democracy.

I do respect your opinion, but I feel I should express my motives.

So perhaps you should look within and ask why you have let the forum degenerate into a mockery over the years?
There is only a handful of IMO quality experts that still contribute, so my actions do little to affect the forum in a negative way, it can only get better.



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RE: First light, posted on January 17, 2015 at 14:00:36
Tre'
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 ,
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: First light, posted on January 17, 2015 at 14:39:07
Garg0yle
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 Looks like a good read.
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I think you're confused..., posted on January 17, 2015 at 16:23:38
Triode_Kingdom
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 "I've done exactly that."

Done what?

"There are verifiable differences."

In what? And how were those differences verified?

Really, if you're going to slam "people like me," at least try to include relevant information.

"Passive parts ain't perfect so they do measure differently and sound different."

Of course they measure differently. I can easily tell the difference between 1/4" of 22 ga. wire and 1/2" of the same wire using an 18gHz network analyzer. But tell me you *hear* that difference, and I'll send over one of those "disparaging remarks" you mentioned.

Seriously, I don't understand what you're complaining about. I never said that different parts don't have sonic differences. I didn't even say that everything we hear is measurable. The only thing I'm "shoving down anyone's throat" is my contempt for the nutjobs here who insist that what they alone hear lays a foundation to tell the rest of us we're stupid.

Incidentally, throwing me and others (who are absolutely opposed to this trend) into the same camp as Lowmu really does imply that you don't understand what's happening here. One of his most recent statements (not to me) was "You could not come within 10% of the quality of my worse amplifier." I have not *ever* said anything even remotely like that to anyone on these forums.

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 03:15:55
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 Hi, Garg0yle,

> I have observed this forum from the sidelines for years,
> it was quite difficult as a amateur beginning down this path to
>sort out what the bullshit is, why there is such conflicting
> information.

> It grew tiresome of reading technical threads disrupted by charlatans.

> If somebody doesn't respect the public enough to tell the truth,
> or to pay for advertisements the traditional way, then I don't
> feel bad at all for attempting to disprove myths and folklore
> from these people.

> This is a technical forum, not a witchcraft forum, nor is it high
> school. I could care less about popularity. Science is not a democracy.

Then, diyaudio.com, diytube.com are the ways to go. They are monitored more tightly to suppress spammers, flooders and charlatans. If you are fluent in Russian I can suggest a couple of good Russian audio electronics forums, there were more, but they are killed by the public outlined above.

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 03:34:28
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
 No, not confused. Just answering your post.

I'll help you focus by re-iterating your post and then maybe my answer will be clearer for you.

You said "It would be really helpful if people who claim to hear differences between caps, resistors, wire, etc. would A) conduct the tests in a meaningful way, i.e. blind AB testing with multiple listeners and B) make basic measurements to see if scenarios in which differences are confirmed by listeners are in fact the result of easily measurable changes to performance."

I said, I've done exactly that. Hope that's clear enough for you now.

"The only thing I'm "shoving down anyone's throat" is my contempt for the nutjobs here who insist that what they alone hear lays a foundation to tell the rest of us we're stupid. "

You tell anyone that hears something you don't stupid or delusional. Just like LowMu does. From the sidelines, where a passer by cannot tell the difference, both camps have the same type of inmate. Arrogant people that want to be right above all else.

I know it must be hard for you to hear that you're anything like LowMu. Believe me, I've been around here long enough to know the difference but that doesn't also mean I (and I bet many others also) see the similarities and that's where your case, your "right", is of the same type as his.

Anyhoo, all entirely predictable. Just wanted to clear up that little misunderstanding. Carry on.

 

RE: Wish I couldn't hear the difference between caps ..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 03:41:41
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
 Thanks for your reply. I would just like to point out then that IMHO, your aim is a little off when deriding some people's ideas. Note I said "some people". Not up to me to say who ;)

As for the last para. I did my best, saw it was fruitless and went into lurk mode. Hats off to the reasonable ones that are still trying. Better men than me.

There are better forums out there for what you're after though you might dig a gem outta here if you're real lucky.

cheers,

Stephen

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 18, 2015 at 05:08:35
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 > I know a lot of DIYer's suggest polystyrene in the RIAA but how
> about for coupling?

I used Panasonic and Cornell Dubilier as coupling caps, work great, no complains whatsoever.

PS. Once I have seen lengthy article (I believe in Electronics World, 2003) with comprehensive measurement of capacitor distortion. Google for scanned PDFs if you are interested.

 

RE: Polystyrenes as coupling caps, posted on January 18, 2015 at 05:20:07
SETdude
Audiophile

Posts: 3944
Joined: January 20, 2000
 Thoughts? Better than the K-40's?

We all have to remember that the K-40's were nonexistent or a factor in audio until they were praised By "The Mikeyman." Others used them but Mikey made them a force to deal with. They are very cheap as compared to others out there and maybe all feel for the money they are a great deal for a good sounding product.

I know a lot of DIYer's suggest polystyrene in the RIAA but how about for coupling?

Now that Blackdog made his comments on them I am starting wonder myself.

Try some and decide for yourself. That is the only way to know. Trust your ears. What works for me may not work for you and you can go nuts and broke soliciting advice/opinions.

 

That depends:, posted on January 18, 2015 at 10:26:25
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Compare 50 feet of 24ga speaker wire with 50 feet of #12 and yes at a certain volume level you will hear a difference for sure!

Now replace a 3 inch generic copper hookup wire in an audio amp with a silver wire. No I don't believe there will be any measured difference within the audio band.

Notice I didn't say nobody will hear the difference. An audiophile with weak to no background in electronics will most likely hear a difference. Especially if they did the mod themselves or paid for it to be done.

OTOH, if we step into my world, replace a silver coil in a satellite low noise amplifier (the front end of the dish horn)with a copper version, yes you will certainly measure a difference. And an inductor in a 12-18ghz circuit is about 1/8in of wire!

 

Low DCR is not the issue!, posted on January 18, 2015 at 10:52:33
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Of course given all else is equal, the lower DCR components are desirable.

The problem in the LSES is the lack of filtering and current reserve. A lower DCR choke will couple more energy between the caps to the load but that only goes so far (in fact not far at all) to make up for inadequate capacitance.

A good power supply must be designed as a system. Simply using low DCR chokes is not going to fix an otherwise poorly engineered power supply.

The LSES has shown deficiencies here using modern industry standard simulation tools. The reported sonic behavior parallels the simulated performance. Of particular note is the proposed theory stated by Medwin and Fraker ignores the action of the rectifier.

These simulations represent solid proven theory and has been for at least 60 years. As others have said here, if Fraker and medwin would simply say they like the way this power supply sounds, there would be little to no controversy over it.

But these statements that the electrical engineering community is all wrong and obsolete in light of proven mathematics is what labels them fools by the learned here.

 

Now I think you're lying, posted on January 18, 2015 at 14:34:31
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "You tell anyone that hears something you don't stupid or delusional."

Some of the things claimed here ARE delusional. However, I'm pretty sure I've never called another member "stupid." I'd like to know which post(s) you're referring to.



 

"prone to melting"..., posted on January 18, 2015 at 20:17:59
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Since I just installed some polystyrenes into a preamp where one of them is about an inch or so away from a tube, how "prone" to melt are they, what temperatures become dangerous? I seem to have had a sense memory that they were heat-sensitive, because I had a thought of installing a heat shield, which would not be too hard to do, if I have to.

Based on one day's audition, they sound wunderbar! Better than I expected and kicking ass of some polypropylene metallized films that are now in the trash.

 

RE: "prone to melting"... not really that serious, posted on January 19, 2015 at 10:10:19
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4769
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 I've always found styrenes to sound better than polypropylene...

The only heat issues are associated with soldering. If you accidentally touch the iron to the body of the part, there is a good bet its compromised or outright ruined. You have to be careful. I've not found that heat from tubes is a problem, unless you put them right up against a power tube.

 

RE: "prone to melting"... not really that serious, posted on January 19, 2015 at 12:19:19
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 Yes historically speaking polystyrene have always been desirable as LEW as rediscovered, just ask any old HAM.

Cost, size and voltage restraints have relegated them to smaller values typically speaking in commercial products.

As Ralph pointed out, if they can survive soldering procedure, you should be OK in application. It wouldn't hurt to clip a heat-sink on the lead in when soldering.

After that temperature stability is one of their attributes so they are less effected by heat in operation. Just keep them distanced from hot spots as you would anything else.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

may not be his fault... perhaps he simply does not hear as well as other people, posted on January 20, 2015 at 03:43:34
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 One should give him the benefit of doubt.
The estimable Richard C. Heyser stomps his comments anyway.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 07:06:42
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Since I am getting mentioned, I have a thought to bring up for others to consider ...

How about THIS :

"A film cap can measure flat and wide band statically - on the bench, but play narrow band and be somewhat frequency selective by ear." - Dennis Fraker.

Is it a function of its uF value ??

Dowdylama recently told me he owns one uF size / type of cap that does Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson correctly from the recorded mix !! ( Guys, I keep good company ).

ANY TAKERS, discussion on that one ? Have fun !!

I was "blown away" last night while hearing 72 year old Maurzio Pollini play Beethoven's Sonata #21, Waldstein, on my FM car radio. His clarity of line was absolutely other-worldly and incredible, and ... such music !!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: "prone to melting"... not really that serious, posted on January 20, 2015 at 07:08:35
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I am really glad I have this stash of 0.22uF polystyrene "PAScaps" that I once long ago took out of one of Ralph's amplifiers in favor of teflons, but the 2.0uF/250V polystyrenes that I bought direct from PAS, also long ago, for use in a speaker crossover, are even more of a revelation in a preamplifier. So, I did a search for current sources of polystyrene caps, and you are quite correct; it's really hard to find them in values above 0.1uF these days, except for Russian "K71"s. I found rectangular K71s on eBay in values up to about 1.0uF. These look physically very different from the Russian polystyrenes that I tried in a Quicksilver preamplifier. Those were conventional in shape and encased in metal, like the Russian FT and K72 teflons. They were definitely not good sounding in the Quicksilver, but I might take a flyer on the rectangular K71s. (Oddly, I think the tubular metal polystyrenes I tried are also called "K71" but with a different numerical suffix.)

The company, PAS, appears to be out of business.

 

Just ANSWER these TWO Questions Honestly ..........., posted on January 20, 2015 at 07:24:04
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Nicely stated Gargoyle. We finally get to see where you are coming from.

One question for you, since you mention READING threads for years....

Q1) Have you ever taken the time, expense, effort and HEARD the amps, built by the "charlatans", versus those amp builds by people "you" consider to be "technically well versed" ?

The answer.............. is very likely " NO " .

Q2) IF the "charlatans" build appreciably-better sounding amps than the people YOU consider " technically well versed ", tell me, where precisely does that put YOU - in terms of YOU being relevant, useful and truthful ???

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:23:45
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 > "A film cap can measure flat and wide band statically - on the
> bench, but play narrow band and be somewhat frequency selective
> by ear." - Dennis Fraker.

May be its Mr Fraker imagination?
Do you really think the whole audio community should follow someone without any credible record in engineering, but with rich history of blah blah blah records on this forum?

 

What a HUGE Waste of Time That Would Be, posted on January 20, 2015 at 10:12:28
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "Have you ever taken the time, expense, effort and HEARD the amps"

Have you ever taken the time, expense, effort and MEASURED the amps to quantify the defects? Until you do that, whatever you're building - as a "new" topology/technology/technique - doesn't warrant such an expenditure on anyone's part.

 

RE: That depends:, posted on January 20, 2015 at 10:25:27
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "An audiophile with weak to no background in electronics will most likely hear a difference. Especially if they did the mod themselves or paid for it to be done."

IOW - just to paraphrase the point you're making - they will *think* they hear a difference, not because it actually exists, but because they *want* it to. No such difference will ever be identified regarding the quoted example if the test is conducted in a legitimate way that requires the conclusion to be based on double-blind listener responses.

 

Or I have a less active imagination..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 10:32:49
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 In any event, Stephen's dislike of anyone's particular position on this issue does not give him the right to lie about other members. Dowdy does the same, and I have no respect for either of them.

 

RE: What a HUGE Waste of Time That Would Be, posted on January 20, 2015 at 14:14:08
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Sure, the amps have been measured, and they test out fine.

Now what Sherlock ?

BTW, I asked the question to GargOyle , not you.

And HOW are they ass/u/med by YOU to be defective, you have not heard them, measured them, or even seen the full schematic to have a clue!!

Let our new Forum poster answer the question I posed to him. Its a pretty good one.

Jeff Medwin

 

First things first, posted on January 20, 2015 at 17:15:07
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 Repetition is the mother of Retention.

Richard C. Heyser pioneered fast Fourier analysis...(The Fast Fourier Transform is both elegant and ubiquitous) his credentials FAR outstrip anyone's input on this forum... past and present.

Evidently he and many others on this forum know something that you still must learn.

Richard C. Heyser: “Perhaps more than any other discipline, audio engineering involves not only purely objective characterization but also subjective interpretations. It is the listening experience, that personal and most private sensation, which is the intended result of our labors in audio engineering. No technical measurement, however glorified with mathematics, can escape that fact.â€

What is a waste of time is anyone whom thinks measurements trump the sound of superb gear. Am not lauding Medwin's um diatribes, but contempt prior to investigation WILL leave YOU in everlasting ignorance.





The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 11:36:39
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 * May be its Mr Fraker imagination?

No way Jose !! I hear it, Dowdy hears it on Cash and Willie, MANY other people who actually listen, hear the effect, rather clearly !!

* Do you really think the whole audio community should follow someone without any credible record in engineering,

No, not at all, but in the case of Dennis Fraker, he HAS a credible record in engineering, over DECADES, in audio and in the movie theatre business.

* but with rich history of blah blah blah records on this forum?

" blah blah records " to you, who has never tried ANY if it, but very meaningful to myself and others, who have incorporated aspects of his ideas into our audio DIY builds.

You just GUESS with nothing but a theoretical leg to TRY to stand upon, whereas we build, experience and listen, and we prove your hypothesis wrong on MOST counts !!

What is REAL, and what YOU "think", are simply two different things.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 16:27:07
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 "No, not at all, but in the case of Dennis Fraker, he HAS a credible record in engineering, over DECADES, in audio and in the movie theatre business."

May we see a resume?

And be careful especially on the education side, this stuff is very easily checked out online these days.

 

RE: I think you're confused..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 04:33:58
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 > No, not at all, but in the case of Dennis Fraker, he HAS a
> credible record in engineering, over DECADES, in audio and
> in the movie theatre business.

My father is a scientist, so I have a clue how to check this stuff.

May we see a list of patents, dissertation, publications (for example in Audio Engineering Society library), whatever? Or they are classified as top-secret amplifier tests in unnamed university? :-)

 

RE: What a HUGE Waste of Time That Would Be, posted on January 22, 2015 at 07:14:46
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "HOW are they ass/u/med by YOU to be defective"

I've analyzed your power supply designs. As for testing, didn't you say *someone else's* amps had been tested? And even at that, the results are secret? Do you realize how hilarious that is?


 

RE: First things first, posted on January 22, 2015 at 07:23:07
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "contempt prior to investigation WILL leave YOU in everlasting ignorance."

The problem here - which apparently includes you - is that the need for equipment to meet the most basic and fundamental electrical requirements, such as low distortion and flat frequency response, is being dismissed as unimportant. *That's* ignorance.

 

RE: First things first, posted on January 22, 2015 at 10:38:31
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
 Define "low distortion" and "flat frequency response" good enough for high fidelity audio reproduction in the home.

It's something you want everyone to prove yet I can't remember you stating the standard you require people to adhere to.

 

RE: First things first, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:19:18
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 Perhaps the man wants vanishingly low distortion achieved in the late 70's to mid 80's with solid state and obscene amounts of feedback... it sounded like guano.



The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

How pathetic, you two can't even discuss this topic, posted on January 23, 2015 at 11:18:12
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10044
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 And the topic is... those who demand that everyone else build equipment like they do should be prepared to satisfy the burden of proof that such claims create. That's what we've been talking about, not some nonsense that you toss out in an effort to confuse the fact that you have nothing relevant to say.

 

The criteria for scientific proof is beyond your grasp... you have submitted no proof... for Truth..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 03:56:55
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 Try philosophy 101 down the hall... am starting to think you are cloth eared AND obtuse since you do not understand what Richard Heyser was conveying.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: How pathetic, you two can't even discuss this topic, posted on January 24, 2015 at 09:17:41
Stephen R
Audiophile

Posts: 1428
Joined: January 11, 2002
 You are the one asking for proof. What proof is it you require? What standard is it you require people to adhere to? What is this criteria of goodness that is satisfactory to you?

I ask because you keep asking for proof. That whatever device meets basic specs. Well, what are these basic specs?

What exactly is it that needs to be submitted for you to evaluate? Frequency response from where to where? Corner frquencies? THD? IMD? Just for starters.

If you avoid stating your criteria for goodness, then you're no better than those that are not supplying them.

 

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