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Anyone used a TIG Welder?

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Posted on November 21, 2014 at 07:06:39
Triode_Kingdom
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Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 I usually build chassis for my projects in such a way that all the assembly hardware is hidden. This requires using very thick aluminum in areas like the front panel, so the panel can be drilled and tapped from behind without breaking through. I also sometimes assemble side panels and top plates using large quantities of small 4-40 countersunk screws. The screws are later covered by another panel or wood dress pieces.

Drilling and tapping for 40 or 50 screws, just to hold a few panels together, is a huge PITA. So, now I'm thinking about other techniques. I used an oxy-acetylene about 40 years ago for hobby work, and was pretty good with it. Aluminum requires a TIG welder though, and this is an area I don't know much about. Has anyone here done sheet aluminum welding, and if so, can you recommend a light/medium-duty rig that would be appropriate? Also, I only have 120V mains available in the work area. Hopefully that won't put all the good rigs out of reach.

 

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RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 08:18:48
Uncle Mike
 It gets expensive FAST.
It requires a lot of patience and skill to do aluminum, not like steel.

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 08:58:38
danlaudionut
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Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002
 TK

I used to repair welders years ago.
I was even Hobart certified.
You need to use AC to weld aluminum
for the best penetration.
Justa little extra info.

DanL



 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 09:59:01
TomWh
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Posts: 764
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
 The new square wave tigs are suppose to be really good. I saw a beer can that was welded with these machines. Looks like about 2 grand to get you rolling. In the old days it was a lot more money and the machines where big and heavy. Also get good eye protection they say tigs are really bright.

The nicest looking welds are normally tig done.

Tom

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 10:08:36
6bq5
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Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 A couple of things to remember with TIG-
there are two consumables - the wire and the Gas -
I would stick with the trusted names - Hobart, Miller & Lincoln-
there are transformer based units - but with a 120 VAC input limit, you may have trouble...
Couple of bits to remember with Aluminium - the big challenge with welding it - is the material melts at a temp close to the welding temp - so keep the electrode moving...
also if you sand aluminum - to finish it - the dust particles can accumulate and spontaneously combust - see if there is an aluminum shop near you and ask for a tour - just to see how the are set up...
Have fun
Happy Listening

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:11:10
rmyauck
Audiophile

Posts: 230
Location: Northern Manitoba
Joined: August 23, 2009
 You can weld AL with a gas torch setup which would help in learning TIG. You can also use a MIG with a gun on a suitable welder. TIG inverter AC/DC rig would be nice, but good ones are close to $2K and go above with more features. I'm talking about US manufactured ones that can be fixed and parts are available for it. Around a 200A TIG inverter type (nice an light and more compact also) with nice square wave adjustment settings would be the ultimate setup. Some will run on both 110 and 220V also though with a reduced power top setting on the former.

If on a budget or you need portability you can use large AC alternators and run it off your vehicle or old riding lawnmower engine etc. Plans and ready built unit on the net etc.

A great tip is to use a SS brush and keep it for AL work and clean joints well before welding!

There are some great books out there also!

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:13:52
elflow
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Posts: 354
Location: Indiana
Joined: November 1, 2005
 Also prorect all skin, a TIG produces a lot of UV light.

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:41:49
GSH




It takes a lot of practice to make beautiful welds, and even the best will still need to be ground and polished if they're visible in the first place.

Something to consider are some of the modern industrial adhesives which
can glue almost anything to anything, and the joint ends up being stronger than the material glued. Some of these products are good for 1000's of lbs
of torsional strength.

Otherwise I might encourage the chassis maestro to get the oxy/acetyline rig out again, use steel plates and join with brass rod. In the spirit of a a fancy bicycle frame, you could file up decorative "joining borders" flow brass between them, clean it up, plate part of it and paint the rest.



 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:44:50
6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4385
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001
 Beautiful fillets
Happy Listening

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:57:43
Eli Duttman
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Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 A link is provided below to the site of a truly expert welder.

Jody also has a slew of videos on YouTube, which could prove to be educational.


Eli D.

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 13:42:28
LinuxGuru
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Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 Hi, Triode_Kingdom,

Use epoxy like JB Weld, forget about tig weld, it is not necessary in this case.

 

not a weld, posted on November 21, 2014 at 13:43:20
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 These are bearing techniques

 

brazing is the correct word actually , posted on November 21, 2014 at 14:57:19
GSH
 Bearings are spheres, unless needles or cylinders.

 

Thanks, excellent link!, posted on November 21, 2014 at 15:25:07
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Thanks Eli, that link was very helpful. I really enjoyed the "aluminum practice" video!

 

Thanks everyone (and another question)..., posted on November 21, 2014 at 15:44:23
Triode_Kingdom
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Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 First, thanks to everyone for the great advice. The specific techniques I'm using right now rule out everything except aluminum and stainless steel. All my metalwork is either lathe turned or brushed, then clear anodized. Steel and brass can't be placed in the anodizing bath, which is roughly 50% sulphuric acid, and I wouldn't trust epoxy after this exposure either. Essentially, only stainless steel and aluminum can be immersed in the tank. I think this really means that a TIG welder is the only secure means to assemble a chassis when I don't want to use threaded hardware.

My question is this... If I find a used TIG welder for sale, does anyone here have the experience to tell me whether it's worth buying? I'm not talking about Chinese junk, but only something originally made by a reputable manufacturer here in the States, maybe a few years old. I'm so new at this, I can't tell the good ones from the bad. I really could use some guidance to keep me out of trouble.


 

RE: brazing is the correct word actually , posted on November 21, 2014 at 16:25:28
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Damn New smart phone puts in words I didn't intend.
Brazing is of course what I originally intended.
Built several frames :Reynolds double butted tubing, prugnat lugs.

 

RE: Thanks everyone (and another question)..., posted on November 21, 2014 at 18:12:11
thermionic addictions
Audiophile

Posts: 892
Joined: June 16, 2006
 TK, I have used oxy/acet, arc and mig welders. At one time or another
I was fairly proficient with each discipline. Considering the thickness
of the metal you are using I would suggest a mig welder, with an
aluminum attachment. Much cheaper to buy and from what I was taught,
much easier to use.

If you really want to pursue the TIG thing (I have always wanted one
too, could never afford one) try a local collage for a night coarse on welding.

Cal

 

RE: Thanks everyone (and another question)..., posted on November 22, 2014 at 04:30:37
Uncle Mike
 Go to a welding supply house( one that deals with local industry in the area) and ask these questions. As suggested previously a MIG welder would be your best option IMHO with a grinder and file your best friends. A little theory and skill you can make welds well enough to be able to dress it up.
I would stick to Miller or Lincoln If I were looking, with Miller having the edge based on what I see with friends still in the trade. You can get a single phase wire fed machine that would suit your needs. Just change the spool and gas you can do either aluminum or stainless steel.
I was, in a past life, a very skilled weldor. I was able to weld aluminum process pipe on air reduction plants, something many skilled ferrous metal weldors have a hard time with. From experience I know there is a fine line between making a weld and having the metal vaporize. It becomes more difficult when the the thickness is less, no heat sink. That is why MIG is more forgiving.

 

RE: brazing is the correct word actually , posted on November 22, 2014 at 19:44:09
GSH
 Built a few myself.

 

RE: Thanks everyone (and another question)..., posted on November 23, 2014 at 08:11:39
GSH
 Adhesives could still work if you used them After the anodizing was done.
Depending on the thickness of materials, the heat involved in a weld could
warp or twist something, enough to not sit flat or fit on something, so keep this in mind, you may have to make a fixture to force it to cool straight, or cold set it afterwards, or machine it afterwards.

 

your english professor is not impressed, posted on November 23, 2014 at 11:40:05
GSH
 use the edit option before you get spanked.

 

MIG not TIG?, posted on November 23, 2014 at 17:46:11
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Two members have now suggested a MIG, rather than TIG. That's OK with me, it would certainly save a lot of money. My only concern is that a buddy at work (who recently bought a TIG) has stated that aluminum must be welded with AC. All the MIG welders I've seen so far are DC only. Is this important? Also, will a MIG allow me to weld, say, a 0.090 thick angle to a 0.25 or 0.50 plate? In other words, when one piece is very thin and the other much thicker, is MIG still appropriate?

 

RE: MIG not TIG?, posted on November 23, 2014 at 18:06:58
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 No, MIG is not appropriate, DC welding with helium is fine for deep penetration but your requirement for welding markedly different gauges necessitates TIG.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: MIG not TIG?, posted on November 23, 2014 at 18:18:18
Eli Duttman
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Posts: 10455
Location: Monroe Township, NJ
Joined: March 31, 2000
 "Also, will a MIG allow me to weld, say, a 0.090 thick angle to a 0.25 or 0.50 plate? In other words, when one piece is very thin and the other much thicker, is MIG still appropriate?"

Communicate with Jody and get a correct answer from somebody very much in the know.

TIG definitely produces the best welds, but operator skill is crucial. In the situation described, I can see the operator holding a TIG torch so the puddle forms mostly from the thicker material piece.

BTW, a lot of MIG work is done with CO2, as the shielding gas. That definitely will not do, when welding aluminum. I've seen guys, like Keith Fenner, over on YouTube use a 75% argon/25% helium mix as the shielding gas, when welding aluminum. Remember, the 1st successful welds of aluminum were done with 100% helium shielding and the process was called "heliarc".



Eli D.

 

RE: A few things to consider, posted on November 24, 2014 at 07:28:00
Russ57
Audiophile

Posts: 3754
Location: South Florida
Joined: November 16, 2001
 First, you would be talking about a very powerful machine in order to weld 1/2". I think it will be out of your budget and beyond the limits of your electrical supply (assuming we are talking about working at home).

A quality TIG set up will do a lot of things. Think of it in terms of a power supply (which ca be used for regular arc welding) and a TIG torch along with a regulator/flowmeter. For serious work you will need a water cooled torch. Figure on needing a 250 amp machine to do 1/4" aluminum and 200 amps for 3/16"

The MIG machine isn't going to be as verstile. Also feeding aluminum wire is troublesome. The MIG is faster to learn. MIG works best on clean stuff of equal thickness (IMO).

Going TIG will allow you to weld darn near any metal. You just change gas, electrode, and wire as needed. You also get a regular stick (ARC) welder thrown in for free.

Your best deals (old used stuff) will be on larger industrial type machines. The Miller 300 A/BP would be on my short list. If you have the money and want newer the syncrowave 250 is nice.

BTW, don't waste your money on a 500 dollar MIG welder if you want to do anything more than sheet metal work.

 

RE: A few things to consider, posted on November 24, 2014 at 10:42:09
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 "First, you would be talking about a very powerful machine in order to weld 1/2"."

Yes, I've gathered that from looking around the Web. However, I'm not trying to weld two 1/2" plates together, I only need to weld a thinner piece onto the 1/2" plate. I've been assuming that wouldn't require as much power, but maybe I'm wrong. I'll add that mains power does represent something of a challenge. I might be able to run a 240v extension from inside the house when needed (unused dryer connection), but my garage is otherwise limited to 120v.


 

RE: A few things to consider, posted on November 24, 2014 at 13:12:02
Russ57
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Posts: 3754
Location: South Florida
Joined: November 16, 2001
 Oh trust me....240 single phase is the least you will get away with....and think stove receptacle:) For 1/2" you'd likely be well into 3 phase 480 volt range. Aluminum is a huge heat sink and takes a lot more power than the same thickness steel.

Overall stainless will be cheaper/easier to weld. As a plumber I was used to a torch so I found TIG welding (stainless) easy (thicker stainless can be done with normal arc welding equipment and 308/309/316L electrodes). A standard AC/DC 150 amp arc welder and an air cooled torch will do for light duty stainless. Just add a high freq box to start the arc (and even that isn't absolutely required). A nice power unit will have pulse mode and AC balance and bells and whistles....that are nice.....but require knowledge/add price.....and probably not needed for what you are doing.

I'll assume the 1/2" stuff is to allow you to blind tap holes. If so look at "stud welding". I'd get a sheet metal place to cut and bend the box so you only have to weld corners. At that point, if you want them buffed and polished out, you might just want to farm the welding part out as well. Look for local guys that do commercial kitchen work. They fabricate a lot of stainless and buff and polish seams so you can't see them.

A cheap source of material is mirrors from jails/psych wards....highly polished stainless. Pretty sure McMaster Carr sells them.

 

RE: A few things to consider, posted on November 24, 2014 at 20:35:17
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Good suggestion from the standpoint of welding, but stainless doesn't lend itself to the style of work I'm doing. Aluminum is much easier to mill, and the ability to CNC small openings, fittings and custom bracketry on the fly really empowers me in constructing custom, one-off designs. The fact that I can also clear anodize the parts within an hour or two of taking them off the mill is another huge advantage for aluminum. All that aside, I'm the type of person who likes to control every step of the process. Moving to stainless would be a huge step backward in that regard, requiring a lot of outsourcing and loss of control.

If you're correct, and I don't have the mains power to pull this off, then that's the end of it. I'll just need to keep looking for other techniques or construction practices to make it less time consuming.

 

Still waiting..., posted on November 24, 2014 at 20:44:34
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10045
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 I e-mailed him yesterday, but he's probably very busy managing that site. Maybe I'll hear back sometime this week.

 

RE: Anyone used a TIG Welder?, posted on November 25, 2014 at 21:09:07
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 TIG is an electric torch with a shield gas.If you can use an oxy-acetylene torch, you can master TIG.

Russ has given you the best advise

 

RE: Just thinking out loud here, posted on November 26, 2014 at 10:13:02
Russ57
Audiophile

Posts: 3754
Location: South Florida
Joined: November 16, 2001
 From what I gather the front panel is thick, like 1/2" but everything else is much thinner (like what, 1/4" or 16 gauge?).

Could you do something like cut a female dovetail in the thick part and epoxy male dovetail to thin panels and slide things together? A small notch in the male dovetail and a set screw in the thick part would hold it together neatly. It would be strong but easy to take apart.

Do take a look at a stud welding outfit. I have seen some nice box shaped things where they rabbet the sides....drill and tape a few pieces of square stock to sides where desired....drill holes through square stock.....stud weld to top panel to mate with holes. Entire top panel lowers into place and a few Keps nuts holds it all together. Have an item at work built this way....something that only I work on...sacristy??....anyhow joints are so close and so well polished they are hard to see...looks like a solid cube of gold:)

 

RE: Just thinking out loud here, posted on November 26, 2014 at 12:41:22
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 Welding 1/4" to 1/2" would be a piece of cake.

 

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