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How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?...

24.140.98.34
Posted on July 28, 2012 at 09:04:44
deathtube 667
 I found an interesting video on YouTube about RCA High Fidelity tube audio products from 1957.

It seem like a lot of things have stayed the same since then.

Check out Mr. Smith in this video. Too funny.

 

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Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 28, 2012 at 16:36:48
grhughes
 more picky.... and at the same time more sophisticated. I guess it's the price one pays. Anyone can buy components provided they have the money. Few can build their own equipment from a collection of parts. I think in DIY ego is very much involved. Beranek's Law remains supreme.Beranek's Law
"It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion."
L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 28, 2012 at 22:53:08
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
 One reason why I never completely trust my own ears. A few of us frequently host music nights, pizza, wine and music. I value their VERY critical opinions as much as I value listening to their systems. We have all benefitted and I have no doubt that we are listening to finer sound as a direct result.

Naz

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on July 29, 2012 at 08:23:36
Neff


 
Physics has not changes, however DIYers are smarter thanks to so many experimenting and sharing on the internet.

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:04:48
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I totally agree. How many posts start out with, "I just built [this or that]..." or "I just bought [this or that]"..., and it sounds awful? Not many, because not many of us can summon up the necessary objectivity to really "hear" what we have or have not accomplished. This is an unavoidable and universal human frailty and why formal publishable scientific studies must always include controls, preferably blinded ones.

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on July 29, 2012 at 14:26:48
griboon
Audiophile

Posts: 449
Location: Lynchburg Va.
Joined: October 14, 2003
 Hi Death,when I got started back in 1984 through a friend of Jeff's it was all push pull. No plate chokes,no grid chokes, no interstage transformers. The selection of output transformers was for shit. That did not stop anyone! The pastime has gone into so many interesting directions I have given up on any hope of trying many things. It has been worth it though by far. I am lucky to have done the cool shit that I have done and that ain't close to what some have pulled off. Kiss simple to outrageously complex it is just too interesting to even worry about the small stuff, because there is always another project in the background to think about!

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 29, 2012 at 22:31:59
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002

Lew

I have been there and done that...
I built a CF KT88 amp that upon first listen
I was amazed at the sound - articulate and fast.
Upon further listening I realized what was missing.
The nuances and layering were not there.
Everything was up front and in your face.
So my first response was the WOW.
Then came the something missing critique.

DanL



 

I built it, I love it, posted on July 30, 2012 at 15:45:17
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
 Belong to a DIY club and you see it every time. You have some of yourself into it so naturally you prefer it. To others of course, this can involve real suffering! :0

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 30, 2012 at 17:18:01
griboon
Audiophile

Posts: 449
Location: Lynchburg Va.
Joined: October 14, 2003
 There is a lot of truth to Beranek's Law. I must admit that I am biased to what I think should sound good. I try not to let it get in the way of new ideas that I want to try! Only time can tame that.

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 31, 2012 at 17:35:33
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 What worries me sometimes is that I am not sure I can do what you did. I do think that I have figured out a few occasions when I made things worse instead of better, but it took months of listening or at least many weeks for the idea to present itself and then to sink in.

But at least we aren't hurting anyone except our own selves. Think what it's like to be in the House or Senate. Those guys have created rules whereby it's OK for them to accept huge donations from special interests and then to pretend that they are making objective judgements that affect said special interests. No rant intended. I'm just sayin'.

 

Yes, as it has in audio more generally science has gone out the window for far too many people., posted on August 3, 2012 at 08:20:01
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 But misuse of 'science' got in the way of improvement in audio for a long time.

I mean the 'you can't hear the difference between a blow on the head and margarine' kind of blather from the objectivists, eg. the likes of Stereo Review and the audio pages of The Gramophone until a decade ago.

So I suppose we have to accept the pendulum swinging away from any science at all, for some DIYers, for a good while yet.

Mind you we'll stick to our guns in the meantime. ;-)

I'm even a spkr and IC cable sceptic, while acknowledging that series R, and C and L probably matter quite a bit. L probably most of all with spkr cable, and C with ICs.

The 'funny' thing about the video for me was the faith displayed by Mr. Smith.

I am also one of those who listens with a score, sometimes.
































Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 5, 2012 at 13:14:59
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
I have an original RCA handout booklet aimed to DIY'ers. It shows the character happily breathing-in solder smoke, while smoking cigarettes!

The virtual hobbyist had a big grin on-- and was, no doubt, making the monumental construction and implementation errors of the day (RCA tube manual-- expanded), not to mention wrecking his health.

The booklet was promoting the RCA Mil./spec. Industrial tubes-- especially the 5691 and 5692. Rugged they were, sound good? Sylvanias "smoked" 'em, but the Red Labels were pretty. RCA later built 6SN7's, 6SL7's, and etc, without the big glued-on vertical base-- these tubes were all glass, except for a small bakelite wafer which was the new, slimmer base. It still had the soldered-on base pins. (octals have trouble with the "highs"-- and produce unnecessary distortions because of these soldered-on pins-- so these octal tubes were not, and are not, perfect.).

That later RCA tube trashed the Mil.-Spec 5691/5692 tubes Big Time-- it really sounded much better, and lasted. It was also Mil.-specced, the others got dropped.

BEST amp that ever used a 6SN7 type? Von-Gaylord's Oil-Cooled 200 watt, ceramic output tube Push Pull. It was all 6SN7 except for the ceramic output triode. ALL of the tubes were cooled in transformer oil-- the oil bottle was a vertical plastic tube, sealed at both ends, so you could look at all the tubes thru the clear oil.

This was a GREAT Push-Pull amp. It was also a work of art.

In fact, I would happily run one today had we not discovered the huge and wonderful dynamics of the properly implemented one watt SET!

---Dennis---

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on August 5, 2012 at 15:13:31
Stuben
Audiophile

Posts: 669
Location: Guber Ohio
Joined: December 30, 2005
 Dan,

I built a similar topology only using (2) halves of a 67N7...Both halves loaded with a CCS, RC coupled and standard self bias on the output. I found that Triode strapping the output provided too much damping so I went EL34 Pentode with a solid g2 supply and a PIO cap bypass...The result is a wide sound stage and rich Mids and good bass response driving a fe207s in a voight pipe inclosure...I have not exposed this amp to any difficult loads yet ...but I think I achieved most of my goals.

My goal was too provide a design that did not break the bank on the output valves and still provide an SET eloquence...

Stuben

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on August 5, 2012 at 15:43:37
danlaudionut
Audiophile

Posts: 5480
Location: Schenectady
Joined: June 6, 2002

Stuben

If you found what you were looking for
then I am happy for you.
I went to a standard design shown above
and am quite happy with it.
I tried every tube from a 6L6GC to a KT88
and I can fine tune with the driver tube.
My preferences are TS 6L6G, Genelex KT66
and SED KT88 but they all sound different.
The EL34, 6P3S-E and KT77 did nothing for me.
The SED KT88 edged out the GE 6550 IMO.
TS 6L6G is warm and romantic for Jazz.
Genelex is fast and articulate for Classical.
SED KT88 is powerful and dynamic for Rock.
One day I will try the Genelex KT88.

DanL



 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 5, 2012 at 17:55:09
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 What does your response have to do with DIY audio "now and then" Dennis ??

I didn't get it.

Jeff Medwin

 

Dennis stated SET has come forth in a big way........nt, posted on August 5, 2012 at 18:02:42
Neff


 
.

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 5, 2012 at 21:36:35
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Today, we're more advanced-- people themselves never change as a species-- but mankind always progresses anyhow.

We don't smoke cigarettes. If we smoke a pipe or a cigar, we ventilate. We try not to breathe vaporized rosin/metal. We use exhaust fans while soldering, and use BORAXO on our hands if we've handled solder.

We also know how-- finally-- to build tube amps that can compete with the best Solid-State. SLAM, Attack, Decay, macro and micro dynamics. Yet retain the vacuum tube's remarkable ability to detail with depth and layering as is noticed at the recording venue. Pace, rhythm, and timing. Dynamics delivered on-time. No Low-End mushiness-- in a TUBE AMP?-- Yes--finally.. No boredom from too large capacitors recharging and hogging driver-stage current. No dynamic flattening from Low-Mu drivers. And on and on one could go.....!

You know what's now possible. So, what has changed? Everything.

Someday, we'll have power supplies with NO capacitors. And I don't mean batteries-- which ARE capacitors....

Things change every moment of every day. That's the point.

---Dennis---



 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 6, 2012 at 19:18:12
griboon
Audiophile

Posts: 449
Location: Lynchburg Va.
Joined: October 14, 2003
 Hi Dennis is there a way of finding a link to the picture you described?

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 6, 2012 at 21:06:37
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 That is more like it. Amen A+. Thanks.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 7, 2012 at 09:54:18
Neff


 
Dennis, thanks for speaking the truth. IMO per my ears, few tube amps in the 1960s in factory stock form sounded as crystal clear as the better SS offerings in the 1970s including those minimalist 1980s SS power amps with a superior preamp. Tube type amps required use of triode power tubes & better components plus superior design to outperform the SS amps sonically. Of course, low efficient speakers are not for SET, but a 2A3 PP or more powerful 845 PP solves that issue for the most part.

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on August 7, 2012 at 21:30:05
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 Both technologies have improved LATELY-- in the past 23 years for me-- in the last 2 years for most other (good) tube amps, and in the past 3 years for most S/S stuff.

Years ago, the S/S camp knew that they would be driving Low-Eff. speakers-- and that their power supplies would have to be Low-DCR and have high amperage output. This was simply a case of necessity. The larger the S/S amp-- in the old days-- the better and more tube-like (in the good way-- smooth pacing)they sounded. This was largely because the higher-power rigs sported higher Rail Voltages-- making response-to-signal timing better.

The achilles Heel was the same as tube amps-- the Power Supply capacitors were vastly too large in Micro-Farads to work well with signal... but at least the whole S/S scheme was Low-DCR. That at least handled Bass-- the tube amps simply died on Bass because of their too large caps and High-DCR iron. NO ONE in "pro" circles could stand a vintage tube amp..... NOTHING sounded worse to drummers, especially.

The S/S amps, however, couldn't compete with the tube amps-- (and they were plenty BAD!) for relating human voice, and for displaying image depth and Soundstage width. This problem-- the inability to do this-- was-- in S/S amps-- a direct result of using voltage-regulation instead of really well designed iron, and failure to employ good quality low-MicroFarad caps in S/S Power Supplies.

Today, the best S/S amps have no feedback circuits and no voltage regulation circuits-- just like the best tube amps today. Power Supplies in each case are simply designed to do what is needed without any form of add-ons being messed around with to FORCE a power supply to do a certain thing. Sonically, application of any kind of force results in-- always-- forced-sounding music.

What a surprise. So here we are-- we've got it licked-- in both cases. And, guess what!? You can count on one hand the number of trained Electrical Engineers who understand it. No wonder Mr. Edison hired untrained High School students for his labs. The idea was that they still knew how to think-- they hadn't yet been trained out of it!

Today, we have top-notch tubes and top-notch S/S devices. We can get either topology to perform well. The engineering for each kind must include a respect for the kind of speaker that will be used with the amp.

---Dennis---




 

'Gaylord', posted on August 8, 2012 at 08:35:41
Al Noakes

no text

 

RE: Audiophiles have become more unreasonable......., posted on July 24, 2015 at 03:17:35
amnesiac
Audiophile

Posts: 717
Joined: August 21, 2002
 Maybe if you try a bigger driver you might like triode better like another el34 or a 6v6.

 

RE: How has DIY Tube Hi Fi changed over the decades?..., posted on July 25, 2015 at 11:43:17
krankkall
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: New Mexico
Joined: April 5, 2014
 I can search worldwide online for speaker and amplifier parts, and depending on shipping location, have it delivered to my front door within a reasonable time period.
Ain't technology just grand!?

Steve

 

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