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B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?

104.230.144.58
Posted on January 25, 2017 at 05:39:17
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 UPDATED!

All, thanks for the feedback and advice. I have some good news.

The Anodyne BAF arrived yesterday. It has made an enormous difference. The bass is now incredibly deep and articulate, faster, and more dynamic. The bass can now be felt, not just heard. This change has really rounded out the overall spectral response, which has mostly eliminated the mid/low treble glare I was getting. I once again found myself turning the volume up, not down, and enjoyed about 2 hours of pure listening pleasure after installing the BAF. For those that have 801s or 802s without one, I highly recommend trying one. I've read the Anodyne unit is second best, only bettered by the Krell BAF.

I still feel there is a small amount of increased mids and low highs and feel this can be dealt with easily by making a couple of changes. First, they definitely need to be properly elevated and floor coupled. I think this alone should be enough. But, I also think the Yamaha HTR probably has a fairly bright sound so I'm thinking about getting a warm preamp. My thinking is to either purchase one that has a high-quality home theater bypass, like the Parasound P5, or adding a preamp that receives my 2 channel sources and connect it and the Yamaha HTR to a high-quality, passive RCA switch.

If anyone has any preamp recommendations, I'm all ears!

Regards,

dastro


I recently purchased a pair of beautiful 801M (series 2) that are in near-mint condition. For the past 6 years I've been enjoying a pair of 802 S2. I always wanted the 801's and a pair became available at an incredible price- so I jumped on them. I wanted deeper bass extension in addition to the wonderful soundstage, dynamics, attack, and imaging that I loved about the 802's.

Upon setting them up and listening for a few hours, I was very impressed. Besides the bass extension (although sometimes flabby, depending on the recording), they have a larger soundstage than the 802s. They are also more revealing, which I find interesting because I believe they share the same midrange and tweeter units.

But the more I listen to them, the more shrill they sound. The midrange and treble sound as if an EQ is bumping them by 5-7 dB or so. The resulting glare turns me off after about 10 minutes. I find myself turning the volume down time and time again. This is the opposite of my experience with the 802's. With them, I found myself turning them up without any hint of fatigue, even after hours of listening.

I'm using the same setup with both of them. I have a Threshold S500/II being fed by a Yamaha Aventage HTR (not the best preamp for the system but it sounds very good, at least with the 802's).

Does anyone have any explanation or advice?

I'll be installing a newly purchased Anodyne bass alignment filter tomorrow. The speakers are currently sitting on their factory casters until I can find a used pair of Sound Anchors.I thought about swapping the heads between the 2 models but then thought it may not change anything.

I've done lots of reading here and on other forums and haven't found anyone else that experienced listener fatigue with the 801 S2.

 

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RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 09:06:52
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 Between the two speakers, are the "heads" physically higher/lower relative to your listening position. Or perhaps some other physical aspect along that line may be contributing to the difference.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 11:56:50
noway
Audiophile

Posts: 425
Location: Canada
Joined: August 28, 2007
 Are you using bi-wiring as recommended?

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 12:03:54
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 Hi Jonesy, Thanks for the response. Good thinking- yes, the 801's tweeter/head are 4" lower. Since my ceiling is only about 7' high, I thought that would actually dully the mids and highs a bit. Maybe not.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 12:06:38
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 Noway, yes, they are currently biwired. When I first got them, the original factory jumpers were still installed in the crossover. I'm very lucky to have read the owner's manual online before I hooked them up!

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 12:11:40
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 Here is a response I got at audiogon. I've never heard that the 802s were designed to have a different sound than the 801s, only a smaller footprint. Mmmmmm...

"Assuming the tweeters ferrofluid has NOT dried out and you are experiencing tweeter distortion/glare!

If you are a purist you need time to get used to the much better and more accurate superior sound of the 801. If you like a more coloured sound then you made a mistake moving to such a legendary accurate speaker as the 801 - pretty much nothing B&W has done since surpasses it.

The 802 is an HT style speaker with a big smiley EQ ( big bass and big treble but a suckout in the upper mid range from 2 to 4 KHz)

Technically B&W simply used too large a mid range woofer on the 802 (6 inch vs 5 inch)and crossed over very high at 4KHz (vs 3 KHz on the 801). The midrange beams and you lose 5-7 db in the 1 to 4 KHz range because the off axis energy is totally gone. No wonder the more truthful 801 sounds harsh to ears long educated on the sound of the 802!

B&W probably knew what they were doing - the big bass and big treble sounds like high fidelity to the unsuspecting while the 801 was so ruthlessly accurate that it garnered huge praise with pros and experts back in the day well before HT and boom boxes (what most people want today). B&W knew the design of the 801 would remain restricted to more discerning listeners and therefore a limited market so why not make a speaker with more mass market appeal.

On a sales floor untrained ears will pick the bass and treble boosted 802 over the 801 every time. Only discerning listeners and those who have a preference for jazz and classical will likely choose the old but legendary 801!"

 

Faulty bass equalization?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 13:03:22
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 Didn't some of these early models have a required electronic equalization for bass?

If that is not working right, then the bass might be overly subdued and you would hear the lack of balance as being too much treble.

Your ear is more sensitive around 1-3 kHz, and you perceive a 'bump' more than a 'dip' even though it is the dip which is the problem.

The review linked also said that the 11 inch stands were effectively required and improves the percieved spectral response.

 

RE: Technically B&W simply used..., posted on January 25, 2017 at 13:10:00
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Everything he said in that paragraph is hooey. The 802 has the same 126mm midrange as the 801 (5 inch), and the same 3KHz crossover point.

 

They shouldn't sound harsh..., posted on January 25, 2017 at 13:21:43
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8445
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
 If you address their need properly. For one thing the 801 matrix speakers are ruthlessly revealing of the source and its ancillary equipment.

Here's some of the things that you can do, which will improve its performance.

1. Place it on a sound anchor and if you don't have one make one out of blocks of cement about 11" in height. This will raise the tweeters slightly above your ears, depending on the height of your listening chair. This will alleviate the one note sound on the bass and will improve the sound staging depths and width coupled with coherent and tight sounding.

2. Give them plenty of room to breath as much as your listening room would allow. About 7' is the minimum distance between the two speakers and 4' away from the front wall.

3. Carpeted floor and room tunes are very essential with these speakers.

4. Last but not least, feed them with the best electronics that you can afford.

If all of these measures are in place and it still sound harsh then it's time to replace the tweeters.

Enjoy...



 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 14:46:53
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 From all the responses, appears the height (stands or blocks) should help. And the equalizer as well. I remember when the 801's came out. Truly something special. Was great to read the article one of the posters provided.

You're quite lucky to find a pair in such great shape at a good price.

Hope everything comes together nicely for you.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 18:12:45
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Excellent advice here by the panel- David.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 18:42:50
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Based on your description, I would recommend keeping the 802s and adding a pair of Rythmik servo subwoofer. That should give you the sound you seem to be looking for. At any rate, it worked for me. I'm very pleased with my system now that I added a pair of Rythmik Signature servo subwoofers.


 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 25, 2017 at 20:14:03
madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Most objectionable, shrill sound comes from the midrange drivers distorting, NOT the tweeters, which produce very little sound. Those Kevlar drivers sound terrible unless their intrinsic ringing is damped or attenuated properly by the crossover.

Both the 801 and 802 use electrolytic capacitors in their midrange crossovers. It's possible that these have deteriorated in the 801's more than in your beloved 802's. I found the midrange a bit brash in my 802's until I replaced those caps with decent poly film caps. It may not be necessary to go to that extreme, but you might consider replacing the 'lytic caps with newer and much better quality (still not at all expensive) parts. B&W really skimped on the quality of their xover components in those days, which is a shame for such quality drivers and careful designs.

To diagnose which driver is producing the negative impact, you might try alternately screening the tweeters and then the midranges with a piece of thin cloth attached (tape?) to the sides of the enclosures and stretched over the driver under test. This would certainly reduce any glaring high frequencies and allow you to determine where the problem sound originates.

I think that your estimate of amount of glare is exaggerated. Do you really know what 5 to 7 db sounds like? That much boost at almost any upper frequency would not just sound bright, it would probably immediately drive you from the room.

A complete diagram of every component inside that speaker, including exploded views of the enclosure, the individual drivers, all wiring, and schematics with parts lists is available from B&W, free for the asking. You might need to provide them with serial numbers so they know you really own a pair.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 26, 2017 at 06:17:40
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Excellent advice- Tom E.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 26, 2017 at 06:37:04
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 All, thanks for the feedback and advice. I have some good news.

The Anodyne BAF arrived yesterday. It has made an enormous difference. The bass is now incredibly deep and articulate, faster, and more dynamic. The bass can now be felt, not just heard. This change has really rounded out the overall spectral response, which has mostly eliminated the mid/low treble glare I was getting. I once again found myself turning the volume up, not down, and enjoyed about 2 hours of pure listening pleasure after installing the BAF. For those that have 801s or 802s without one, I highly recommend trying one. I've read the Anodyne unit is second best, only bettered by the Krell BAF.

I still feel there is a small amount of increased mids and low highs and feel this can be dealt with easily by making a couple of changes. First, they definitely need to be properly elevated and floor coupled. I think this alone should be enough. But, I also think the Yamaha HTR probably has a fairly bright sound so I'm thinking about getting a warm preamp. My thinking is to either purchase one that has a high-quality home theater bypass, like the Parasound P5, or adding a preamp that receives my 2 channel sources and connect it and the Yamaha HTR to a high-quality, passive RCA switch.

If anyone has any preamp recommendations, I'm all ears!

Regards,

dastro

 

Just my two cents, posted on January 26, 2017 at 06:59:19
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Been down this road before. If these speakers are not working for you then no amount of tweaking is going to change them.

It sounds like you are starting on the road to building a system around a speaker you really are not that sure about. BAD IDEA!!!!!

chalk this one up to a bad audio deal and move on.

Just my two cents, but don't start throwing money at something that you are trying to convince yourself IS working. A speaker, amp, anything audio should sound "RIGHT" to you from the start - THEN tweak it out. Not the opposite.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on January 26, 2017 at 08:05:21
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 You could buy yourself a SPL meter from Radioshack for about $50 and use a tone generator online and see the spiking in FR range.

I agreed that it is most likely ringing from those Kevlar mids. That is a big problem and a design flaw. There's a reason Kevlar, magnesium, aluminum and other exotic materials were quietly phased out. Horrible ringing that needed some big ass notch filters. In the end those filters were expensive and only squelched the sound.

Dump that speaker and move on.

 

My life with the B&W 801M-S2 , posted on January 26, 2017 at 08:50:11
Charlie S in Maryland
Audiophile

Posts: 34
Location: Maryland
Joined: July 29, 2014
 I've been a long-time owner of early serial number 801M-S2's which I still enjoy. A few comments from my experience:

1. The tweeter used in the 801M-S2 does NOT use ferrofluid. So there is no danger of dried out damping. (The Series III tweeters did use ferrofluid.)

2. The crossover circuitry is complicated, with fourth-order slopes. This minimizes acoustical interactions between drivers. However, one result is that many components are crammed close together on the crossover board. There exist serious magnetic couplings between several of the crossover coils, leading to undesirable low-frequency coupling into the midrange driver. A number of simple DIY tweaks for minimizing these problems have been described, including relocating one coil away from he board, and bypassing the protection circuitry. These zero-cost tweaks DO help open up the sound of the 801M-S2. John Atkinson once provided instructions for these mods. So did Frank van Alstine. Do some web searches.

3. Some of the crossover components are not of modern audiophile quality, but were necessitated by space constraints: electrolytic capacitors, iron-core coils, and sand-cast resistors. The outboard crossovers available from George Short at North Creek Audio are a heroic effort to replicate B&W's crossover circuitry with better parts.

4. The outboard equalizer supplied by B&W for the 802M-S2 affects only the lowest octave. On most music I cannot detect any difference switching it in or out of the system. However, this equalizer does present a moderate-impedance load on its input, so should be driven by a low-Z source.

5. These speakers do demand amplifiers with high current drive capability and low source impedance. And clean connections. Don't forget to occasionally remove the "head" and clean the contacts that connect the midrange and tweeter.

6. Finally, room placement and/or stands makes a huge difference -- as in any loudspeaker. Experimentation can be rewarding.

Hope these ideas help.

Charlie

 

The 801 S2 speakers kevlar mids don't ring..., posted on January 26, 2017 at 10:02:59
kootenay
Audiophile

Posts: 8445
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Joined: October 16, 2007
 However, the tweeters were made of metal-dome and can be susceptible to ringing issues. This is one of the reasons why B&W designers incorporated the APOC to protect the tweeters from signal overload that can produce ringing as an after effect.

I have the 801 Matrix S3 that has been redesign to eliminate these sort of tweeters issues in the past. The tweeters in the S3 are still made of metal dome, however, it's filled with ferrofluid to keep them from overheating of which made the APOC protection circuits errelevant. By removing the APOC circuits they were able to simplify the X-over of the S3.

BTW, I'm using the Krell Evolution equipment to drive them and they sounded holographic, airy, visceral, but yet articulate with no shrillness, harshness or listening fatigue whatsoever.


 

I agree...., posted on January 26, 2017 at 10:58:20
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 ...I have made costly speaker purchasing mistakes in my time. At first, you are in denial and try to justify that you can "make it work". After a while you just have to cut your losses and move on.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: I agree...., posted on January 27, 2017 at 07:37:04
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15166
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Speakers are like that: Love 'em or hate 'em.

Me, too. The best advice: Get rid of them if one doesn't like them.

 

RE: I agree...., posted on January 27, 2017 at 09:37:31
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
 Been there. It's denial at first - sure I can make these workout?

Then a few amps later - it's maybe I can tweak the crossovers??

Then after the time, aggravation and money (and a few fights with the wife) - maybe I'll take another look at my old speakers???

 

Been mostly lucky myself. Otherwise? Hate to name MFR names, but..., posted on January 27, 2017 at 10:28:59
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Know more than a handful of folks to spend pretty big money trying to get various versions of the Wilson Watt/Puppy to work well in their listening environment...

Me? I'd still like to try a set of those, but my pockets aren't so deep these days.

 

RE: Been mostly lucky myself. Otherwise? Hate to name MFR names, but..., posted on January 27, 2017 at 13:21:21
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7588
Joined: September 21, 1999
 I tried the original Sophia. It was pretty good, but ultimately didn't hang around for very long. I've heard plenty better for far less $$$.

Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 7, 2017 at 11:36:31
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 After more critical listening, my overall impression is that the bass EQ helped, but not as much as originally thought. I may have been wanting to hear a difference more than I did. I've decided to change speakers. The fatigue is still present and the loose/muddy/slow/detached bass just isn't cutting it.

For some reason, I love the idea of an older speaker. I think it's fun to own gear that was once only a dream back when it was new and at a price point that was laughable back in my poor high school, college, and post grad years.

I've decided to look for some older, large Infinity models (separate post) and possibly some ADS L1590's. I have a pair of ADS L400 hooked up in my TV room along with an entry level sub and that ADS top end sparkle is very sweet.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 7, 2017 at 12:17:30
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 Sorry to hear the 801's didn't work out.

If you go with the ADS 1590's, amp match-up will have a big influence on sound. This was especially so with the ADS 1090's, 1290's and 1590's. The 1590's were available with ADS's own amps that would slide in back at the bottoms. They were okay, but you really needed loads of current. So you should be fine with your Threshold amp.

I have heard the Infinity IIB's with Threshold. Excellent match. I don't know what availability is like on the Infinity's now or how well they have withstood time. The EMIT drivers in particular.

Good luck with your search!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 9, 2017 at 01:08:36
brush001
Audiophile

Posts: 60
Location: ON. Canada
Joined: January 2, 2011
 Sometimes you just head down the wrong road.
A room has a tremendous final effect on a speaker's sound.
If the speakers has no defects issetup within reasonable perimeters and related equip is good and correct then the room is usually the first look.

 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 10, 2017 at 04:58:42
fin1bxn@msn.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2215
Location: new jersey
Joined: November 15, 2005
 I have owned and loved the B&W 801 S3 on sound anchor stands. I had it in a big room 30x18. Driven by High current amps. Sounded fantastic, tight bass that went low and very good imaging due to the movable head. I had no fatigue. I should not I'm a vinyl guy and maybe that helped tame them. I also should mention my hearing is not good over 10K but good below that.

I have now in my bedroom system, and used them in my main rig when I got them a mint pr of ADS L910's with built in stands. They are an excellent speaker and can even be put close to walls. These were designed for Studios editing classical music. I highly recommend them.

Some others have mentioned Wilsons. I now have a pr of 8's that work very well on my long wall. They are the best sounding speakers (To me) so far. I did get them used at a great price.
My room is treated and I used their set up technique.



 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 10, 2017 at 08:53:24
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 The Threshold shouldn't be matched with any speaker that leans towards the bright side. And you did mention your Yamaha's preamp may be contributing to any brightness. What surprises me is that combination worked fine with your original B&W's.

I don't know which model Yamaha you have, but I would think a dedicated pre-amp should help things sound better all around. And maybe, just maybe, help the 801's sound better.

The ADS or Infinity's you mention in your new thread may be the answer without changing out your Yamaha.

Best "old classic" matches for your amp would be 80's Infiniity, KEF, VMPS, Martin Logan, Apogee and Magneplaner lines. That's quite a range, and fortunately you are lucky to have an amp that can run the required impedance loads.

Sounds like you are purchasing without having the opportunity to preview. Would be really good if you can borrow product to audition.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: B&W 801 S2 Fatigue VS. 802 S2 No Fatigue?, posted on February 14, 2017 at 13:29:05
davidstro@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 23
Joined: January 25, 2017
 Thanks for all the feedback and advice!

After lots of listening and experimenting with speaker placement, I've given up. I have gone back to my 802 S2's and they just sound so much better. I can listen to them at fairly high levels with zero fatigue. They sound much more balanced and natural. Sure, on some material I miss the deep bass extension, but with the Anodyne EQ, the 802s sound even better than before.

Additionally, I'm still surprised that the 801s mids and highs are so different than the 802s. The 801s are much, much more revealing and the source material and gear differences are more readily ascertained.

Something interesting happened when listening to a Sun Kil Moon track on the 801s. I've heard the particular song on the 802s hundreds of times but on the 801s I heard something that threw me. I thought to myself, "what the hell is that sound?" I thought maybe it was some strange distortion or even something clawing on a nearby window or wall. It turned out to be the the guitarist's pick rapidly striking/strumming/scraping on his nylon strings.

Anyways, I've decided to try to find the 801's a good, new home where they can be appreciated.

 

Glad you hung onto your 802's I bet!, posted on February 14, 2017 at 13:56:10
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3156
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018
 You're right about it being about trade offs. Sure, you could hear the pick, but along with that came harshness. If you were to continue, you would end up having to build your system around the 801's until you got to a point where you could just enjoy the music.

Fun to explore, but as you said, everything sounds more balanced now That's not an easy thing to achieve in itself.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, and the many more that I'm sure will come when the "itch" returns.

Cheers!

Jonesy




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

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