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How much power do you need?

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Posted on September 9, 2016 at 17:25:09
PaulF70
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In an article about tubes vs. transistors, Roger Sanders defends the thesis that speakers actually need LOTS of power - much more power than people think - and, thus, solid-state amps are the way to go.

Roger's a smart guy (I had dinner with him once, about ten years ago), and his stuff sounds good. It's not really my cup of tea for the most part, but in general HiFi terms, it sounds good. Better than quite a lot of gear, overall.

In the article, he challenges readers to put a 'scope on their speakers and see what kind of power they're sucking, and how much they're clipping. He asserts that for most people, the amps are clipping a lot.

He also asserts (rather arbitrarily, it seems) that typical direct-radiator speakers of ~90 dB/W or so require about 500W of power to avoid clipping regularly.

My own Beauhorn speakers are approximately 104 dB/W (measured at 103.5 dB/W/m by the illustrious Thorsten). According to Sanders' formula, I'd thus require about 20W to avoid clipping.

So, I got the 'scope out, and connected to the terminals of my Welborne DRD 45 SET amps, which produce about 1.5W of power going downhill. I then proceeded to play music - loudly. One example is the track "Black Magic Woman" on Pat Barber's "Companion," which has an extended drum solo that is quite something. I played this track with peaks of 92-94 dB at the listening seat in my large room, 10' from the speakers' fronts, according to the Rat Shack meter which is not fast enough to accurately report true SPL peaks (they were likely 3-6 dB louder). Mind you, this is *loud*. If you listen more loudly than this regularly, for long periods, you are damaging your hearing (unless it's already damaged).

Well, I never saw clipping on the 'scope. Not at all. Not on that drum solo or other music. It just was not happening. Sure, Class A tube amps clip softly, but:

1) I didn't even see that
2) This actually destroys much of Roger's argument, incidentally

And, as for experimentation bias, frankly, I kind of wanted to see clipping, so I could have an excuse to buy those gorgeous Thoress 845 monos on audiogon. Oh man they look sweet.

Looking at the numbers, I am not surprised. At 104 dB/W, we're going to get around 94 dB at 10' with one watt of power - but that's totally neglecting room gain and the second-speaker contribution (much signal is shared, of course). So, it is not surprising that 1.5W amps can play these speakers more loudly than people ought to be listening without clipping.

 

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RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 9, 2016 at 19:50:38
megasat16
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Roger Sanders from Sanders sound? He does make some good stuff.

I think you would be looking at the distortion analyzer for the distortion numbers. Actual music signal changes so fast that you won't notice the distortion on the scope. Distortion analyzer is what you need to see if the amp has reached or passed the clipping based on the amount of distortion it makes.

I have clipped my 45 amps but I never notice that from the listening.


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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 9, 2016 at 20:00:52
PaulF70
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Yes, that Roger Sanders. The paper is on his site.

You will see regular clipping on a scope. Which is why he recommended this test. Now, as I said, tubes don't really clip all that hard though. And, as I said, it would seem that that fact - which he points out in the article - undermines it.

He's basically saying, "If you look at a scope, you'll realize you need tons of power, and thus solid-state amps." I think he's missing one thing and wrong on one thing:

- The necessary power levels he asserts are overstated - perhaps by as much as an order of magnitude

- If soft-clipping doesn't look bad on a scope *it may well not sound bad either*.

My 45 DHSET amps are actually probably not even hitting 1W, even on peaks, even at loud levels. Distortion is still quite low at that level and is, of course, almost entirely consonant second-harmonic.

This jives with my subjective observations that more powerful amps do not sound more dynamic - at the levels I listen at (which, again, I call "loud") - or less distorted. In fact, in almost all cases, just the opposite.

 

My experience agrees with yours, posted on September 9, 2016 at 23:07:58
Triode_Kingdom
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I think Mr. Sanders is absolutely wrong. I've repeatedly monitored my SS and tube systems with a scope over the years, and have only experienced clipping with very small amplifiers. The problem mostly arises when excessive tone contours are employed, or when speaker efficiency is grossly mismatched to the amplifier.




 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 01:13:14
Frihed89
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OK, I don't own a scope. I have bad hearing. I don't even know what SET clipping sounds like! But I have a small room, with low ceilings. Using a 9W, 300B on a pair of LS3/5As, or on a ~ 1W Darling amp on a pair of 95dB 8 Ohm Tonian Labs speakers, I have never heard anything odd enough to sound like clipping.

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 06:27:51
hifipaul
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When I first got into HiFi, I would only consider distortion and power #s when buying. This meant solid state. I went through 15yrs of trying to like what I owned, but it was never really so.

One day, on a lark, I purchased a Scott 222. It blew the doors off all of the SS stuff I owned. Low power, high distortion; and great sound. Revealing 15yrs of a great mistake.

Now I listen to amps and such because they sound good, mostly tube with some SS stuff mixed in. I don't care what the distortion #s are, and power is relative only to speaker efficiency/volume.

The point is; Listen with your ears. MyFi or YourFi, not HiFi; MyFi has to sound good to ME. YourFi has to sound good to YOU.

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 07:36:47
RGA
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No offense to Sanders but he is selling low sensitivity electrostatic hybrids and he is selling his 1000 watt amps. At CES he was a few doors away from the Audio Note room. They were running an 18 watt Jinro on 95dbish speaker playing good recordings of thrash metal, trance, kinda stuff at room crushing levels. Sanders' room even with 1000 watt amps sounded completely anemic. He basically said the same thing to me that he said to you but I kept think - for Pete sake walk down the hallway and listen to that 18 watt amp - in every way imaginable it sounded vastly better - at modest volumes as well.

And yes I am a fan of AN but across the hall I could say the same thing for the DeVore Orangutan or the Teresonic Ingenium or the roo with the Trenner and Freidls - most using small watt tube amps and all playing better MUCH better at high volumes.

Think about this as well whenever you're confronted by someone trying to convince you that your system is poor and what they are selling is better - if they tell you you have to use a scope in order to tell if something is good or bad. So what they are saying is that it can't be heard right? I mean if you MUST use a scope and measure it to death to make their case it means that it can't be heard. If it can't be heard then who cares? And if it could be heard - why would you need to spend the time measuring it?

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 10:51:49
drlowmu
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Its a function of the efficiency of a speaker. A good horn system, if well wired, can do very nicely on my DIY Type 45 amp, which is also well wired.

Most of the time, you ( and I ) use under 3/4s of a Watt.

500 Watt solid state amps do NOT usually sound well, played under 1 Watt.

Jeff Medwin

 

Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 10, 2016 at 10:52:26
.....since the top of the waveform is rounded it is both harder to hear, and harder to see on a scope. Your experiment would be much better with a solid state amp as these do flat top the waveform which will be both visually more easy to spot and much more audible.

For what it's worth, I use a 30 watt solid state amp part of the time with 89db sensitive 4-ohm speakers in quite a large room and very, very rarely hear clipping.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 10, 2016 at 11:14:58
PaulF70
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Yes, I did make that point. However, even an SE DHT amp does "eventually" clip hard, and I could detect no deformation of those peaks in quite a long time staring at the scope.

The compression part is more subjective - I don't detect it. More powerful amps don't sound more dynamic. Of course, if I tried 110 dB at the listening seat, there would be a huge difference. Why would I do that?

Sanders' numbers aren't legit, even for solid-state amps where you must avoid clipping at all costs.

(Again, he provides no support for his 500W-for-90 dB/W-speakers requirement.)

What I should do next is my five-watt First Watt F2J - a solid-state amp (one stage, no feedback, single-ended) that sounds better than most DHSET amps I've had.

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 12:32:12
Mick Wolfe
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Yes, a few years back a friend and I stopped by the Sanders room at RMAF. One or two thousand watt per channel amps as I remember. Listening chairs lined up in a single file line centered between the speakers. Immediately I lost interest because I personally have no use for a speaker that needs a thousand watts to wake it up. That said, the set-up sounded very good if you remained "centered up" between the speakers. When we were leaving the room, I casually asked Mr. Sanders if he had visited any of the other rooms at the show. Basically he said he had briefly walked around and found nothing that came close to his set-up. My friend and I were taken back a bit as the statement came across in a somewhat arrogant manner. We thanked him for his time and moved on down the hallway agreeing that we'd already heard a half dozen or so set-ups that we preferred over his.....all tube based BTW.

 

RE: How much power do you need?, posted on September 10, 2016 at 13:16:50
megasat16
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That is exactly right! The problem lies with the power sucking ESL panels he made. But once you get it right, the sound of ESL could be really good though. I have Carver Ribbons that is less forgiving but people says they need 500W too. I laughed all my way out whenever I hear over the top statement like this.

I have SS amps that can work all day long at 0.7ohm load such as Apogees Originals. And they sounds very tube like driving low impedance speakers. But really, I don't see anywhere near they are pushing 10-20W at moderate volume even for such crazy low impedance speakers.

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.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 10, 2016 at 17:31:03
Triode_Kingdom
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It's not necessary to determine by eye whether the waveforms are being rounded or flattened while playing music. In fact, I'm not sure that's even possible, except in extreme circumstances. Instead, just calibrate the scope to the amp with a sine wave and note where the amplifier clips on the screen. With music playing, no signals should reach that level.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 10, 2016 at 17:38:42
PaulF70
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First, my intent was to duplicate the experiment as suggested by Mr. Sanders.

(I think is IS possible to spot clipping if it's hard and regular.)

Second, your suggestion presumes that speaker impedance is known at all frequencies, more or less, does it not? Does not one "calibrate" to a voltage? If not, please explain. Thanks.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 11, 2016 at 16:36:36
Triode_Kingdom
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You're right, speaker Z will affect the amplitude where clipping occurs. That's due to the changing load reflected back to the tube(s), power supply sag, etc. However, if the clipping point is found on the scope using a sine wave at 1 kHz, intermittent peaks in musical material will clip at roughly the same amplitude. It's not exact science, but there's no other way to do this with inexpensive equipment. The point is to determine whether your listening level is likely to be causing momentary clipping that you might not otherwise notice.


 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 11, 2016 at 17:27:35
PaulF70
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Ok, but certainly going by specs will be close enough, eh? The 45 SET will produce ~2W at 3-5% THD ("clipping"). Into my 16 ohm speakers by P=V^2/R we have ~5.7V.

I will run such a test some time soon. I'm curious.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 13, 2016 at 12:40:19
hottattoo
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PaulF70 & others,

My 106+db horn system REQUIRES 20++ watts to sound "live"....Let me explain.

About 10yrs. ago I was bitten by the Lowther bug. After speaking to Jon Ver Halen on a speaker system, I wound up with a Medallion 2 cabinets and Dx-4 drivers. I thought had had this high end audio thing licked. I also had a pair of Cary 300b mono block amps, Cary SLP-05 preamp, Sony / Modwright cd/sacd player and all was well. Also in the mix was Medallion 3 cabinets with PM6a and Pm2a drivers to try. On simple music, these systems sounded very good but on large scale classical music, something was missing. It turns out several things were missing, low frequencies, mid bass snap, dynamics, clean, extended high end. I have attended almost all the audio shows like CES, Rocky mountain audiofest in search of answers. I listened to the big Sound labs, Maggies, Wilson and many others and realized I needed a bigger speaker system. At one of the CES shows I wandered into Dr. Bruce Edgar's room when he was showing his full Titan system and that was it. I have never heard such dynamics, clarity etc. and knew that is the type of system I wanted. IIRC Dr. Bruce was using a 30 watt tube amp from Cy Brenneman. I have visited Dr. Bruce's home and listened to his field coil version of the Titan system and was even more impressed so I asked him to design a mid bass horn using a pair of Altec 515b's and he did.

A few years ago I put together the following system:

1. Tweeter ---- TAD ET-703 with 107db sensitivity
2. Mid Range--- Field coil converted JBL 2441 with beryllium diaphragms connected to a Sierra Brooks solid wood tractrix horn measuring 25.5" at the mouth and 24" long. Should be about 110db sensitivity.
3. Mid Bass horn--- 2 Altec 515b's connected in parallel in a hypex horn measuring 32" x 45" at the mouth and 47" deep. should be at least 106db sensitivity. The horns in room are flat to 58hz and crossed at 400hz. The crossover is Dr. Bruce designed 6db.
4. Subwoofer's--- Pair of sealed 9 cubic foot using a pair of TC Sounds LMS 5400 18" drivers in dual opposed configuration. Powered by a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000hd amplifiers strapped to mono. The amps have built in DSP and crossover and go from 14hz to 60hz with 48db roll off.

Now, you would think that a horn system with a sensitivity of 106+db would get by with a flea powered SET amplifier---not so. I sit 17' away from the voice coils in a medium sized room 16' wide x 23' long with 10' ceiling. I have 2A3 mono blocks, Type 50 tube mono blocks, 300b mono blocks, 211 mono blocks, 845 mono blocks and none of them have enough power to convey the power and dynamics of large orchestral pieces such as The Rite of Spring or Mahler symphonies for example. You can also forget about the Joe Morello DMP drum cd and most of the Sheffield cd's. It takes a pair of Art Audio ( un cataloged ) mono blocks using a single KR T100 tube for 26 watts SET to make this system swing !! I expect 100db+ peaks at my sitting position when called for and if the an amp can't do it--it is out !! Perhaps I am spoiled by the mid bass power and clarity this system has but once you hear it,there is no going back. Flea power does not cut it for me. I don't like solid state amps on this system.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 13, 2016 at 13:12:06
PaulF70
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I'm not surprised at all you need that kind of power. It's your passive crossover. I've had full horn setups as well (DIY & AV Trios) and noted they need some power despite the ~105 dB/W+ sensitivity.

No speaker is perfect, however, the Beauhorns have coherence that no front horn system ever will. I prefer them for jazz, which is what I listen to.

 

Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 15, 2016 at 02:13:14
morricab
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I have long been a proponent of using lower power amps and SET in particular whenever possible.

more than 10 years ago I was using a 30 watt KR Audio VA350i on a pair of Acoustat Spectra 2200s that had a sensitivity rating of 84db. It worked beautifully up to the upper 90s db range, which as you rightly mentioned in a room is LOUD.

I have also seen demonstrations where the speakers were not getting so loud but were sucking hundreds of watts from the speakers as visible on their front panel power meters. The speakers in question had a similar sensitivity rating to the electrostats (perhaps a db or two more even).

My current horn speakers (Odeon La Boheme) will rock the house with 20 watts and probably a lot less (my SETs are all 20+ watts so I don't know about significantly less than this). THey are around 98db/watt and I sit around 3 meters (10 feet) away from them. My small Odeons (Rigoletto) will play quite loud with the same 20 watt amp in a bigger room despite having a sensitivity of "only" 93db/watt. Both speakers, even going full tilt have nearly zero driver movement as the bass driver of each (both are two-ways) is back horn loaded and the tweeters are horn loaded as well.

So, what gives here? I think power compression and crossover losses are the main culprits for a majority of "normal" box speakers.

This box speaker that was still playing at tolerable levels even though the meters were reading hundreds (like 500+) watts seems to strongly indicate that the speakers were not increasing in loudness by 3db with every doubling of the power. Probably at some point they simply were not getting any louder and the energy is wasted as heat.

Why my electrostatic speaker probably worked ok with 30 watts was a few reasons: 1) They do not suffer power compression as there is no voice coil to heat up, 2) They were line sources and as such the SPL drops more slowly with distance than a point source 3) THe room was not huge so there is likely significant room gain. I actually measured the drop from the front of a panel to my listnening spot (just over 3 meters) and it was only about 1db. With two panels you get then about 87db for 1 watt, 90 for 2, 93 for 4, 96 for 8, 99 for 16 and 102 for 32. I measured peaks with my Behringer DEQ2496 and calibrated mic in the high 90s without any audible distortion (I didn't have a scope hooked up, alas).

As speaker with significant power compression might be fine for the first few watts but then as the demand to go louder it will compress. This is happening both on steady state and to some degree on sudden peaks as well when the current goes surging through that voice coil it will heat up very fast. A complex crossover will exaccerbate the losses before getting to the voice coils.

I experienced this first hand in the past with Dynaudio speakers. I had a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.8MkII speakers with about 85db/watt sensitivity. They would not play soft well at all, sounding lifeless and gray. Turn the wick up a bit and they would sound quite good...for compressed pop/rock music and some jazz but not classical at all...the soft stuff just got lost. Turn the wick up some more though and the speakers started to sound compressed with dynamic peaks lacking dynamic punch...the soft stuff would work better but crescendos became a compressed congealed mess. This was the same with several amps I tried...from 500 watt beasts to 35 watt EL34 tube amps.

This speaker has a "comfort" zone of around 80-90db where it sounded quite good and this meant it was tailored to pop music and some Jazz. Rock music played really loud didn't work that great either. Classical was hopeless. Switching to electrostats (AudioStatic ES100s) fixed the low level resolution issues I had and allowed unrestricted dynamics up to the physical limits of the speaker, despite having about the same nominal sensitiity. Jazz and classical became a joy to listen to for a change.

For me, the speakers that "need" 500+ watts are the ones to avoid because they are actually not really delivering the sensitivity they claim beyond 1 watt where they were tested. The normal math (3db for every doubling of power) shows you can get quite loud with a handful of watts but this is only true IF the speaker is really getting 3db louder with each doubling...I suspect most are compressing badly and don't get close to this.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 16, 2016 at 04:05:03
vinnie2
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What kind of SET's are you running that they are all 20+ watts? They is a lot of ommmph for an SET amp. What output tubes do they use?

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 16, 2016 at 07:13:19
morricab
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I have the following:

JJ 322, which is a parallel 300B amp. Rated 20 watts makes a legit 15 watts at 1% THD based on measurements from a Polish mag.

Wall Audio Opus M50 monos. Parallel 6C33CB makes a rated 35 watts but who knows at what distortion. These sound significantly more muscular than the JJ though.

Aries Cerat Diana integrated. All DHT design with 813 output tube wired in triode (it is actually a DHP (direct heated pentode). This amp is rated at 25 watts and probably gets close to that with reasonable THD. I have this in house for review right now.

Soon, I will have the Ayon Crossfire III and in October I will have a pair of Ayon Vulcan II monos for review.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 16, 2016 at 11:43:45
vinnie2
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You need to try a true single tube triode SET like a clssic 300B or 2A3 or 45. I think you will hear quite a difference.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 16, 2016 at 13:51:41
FWIW, I run the same speakers as morricab on a set of 2A3 DHSET monos that probably do about 3-1/2 WPCH or so, and I'm quite happy with the sound. It's enough power for my purposes, but I do think it worth noting that the manufacturer recommends ~10 WPCH, and I admit that it could stand a little more slam/grunt, or however you wish to describe it. It's also worth noting, however, that I haven't yet tried any tubes other than the Sovteks that came with them. A set of JJ 2A3-40s might well address that issue.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 16, 2016 at 14:46:25
91derlust
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I conceptualise like this:

> Power & Efficiency (plus a few other factors) determine volume
> The sense of dynamics and vitality (within volume limitations) are down to other design factors... though increasing power can sometimes partially compensate.

Thankfully, I don't enjoy listening to music in my home at live levels, so I can compromise on power while saving my hearing to enjoy the occasional live gig. Still, I like a sense of vitality in music - the system still needs to be designed to achieve this.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 16, 2016 at 23:21:47
hennfarm
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"3-5% "clipping" ". Deformed signal, not necessarily clipped maybe? JH

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 17, 2016 at 06:35:09
PaulF70
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Well, you are right, that is inaccurate. 3-5% THD is usually considered around the power limit for an SE amp (and what S-file will call "clipping") but obviously 3% THD doesn't look anything like a square wave. However, the SE amp that is at 5% THD is indeed going to be at far higher levels with just a bit more power, generally. There is still a knee in the curve.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 18, 2016 at 13:55:19
horn kid
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He's a guy making a really powerful amp, what do you think he will say?

If you ask him what speakers are the best, what do you think he'll say, horns? He makes stats, he says stats are best. Duh.

As for how much power, I have really liked 20 watts into my 100db/watt speaker. I've liked 170 watts better. So, what do I NEED? Well, I have the money to easily pay for the big one, so I own it.

If I could not afford the big one, I could happily live with the 20 watter.

So, it's not about need, necessarily, it's about desire and what you are willing to pay to satisfy your desire.

One thing to remember, it's a LOT more expensive to find a great high powered amp. There are few great amps, so even fewer high powered great amps.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 18, 2016 at 14:17:26
PaulF70
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There's no 170W amp that sounds as good as the best 20W amps.

Duh.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 18, 2016 at 15:46:45
horn kid
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That's what the guy who does not have the big tiodes with single transmitter tubes will always say.

You don't know what's better, or what it will sound like, until you hear it.

If you owned a bunch of small AND big ones you would not have the agenda you do. I have many of small and big ones. I have no agenda. The big ones, if they are really good, will show you what your small ones don't do.

So much of audio is "if I don't own it then it can't be as good as what I do own".

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 18, 2016 at 15:49:29
PaulF70
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Agenda? Please elaborate, oh mind reader.

I've owned at least 50 SET amps. Probably more. At least 15 of the 211/845/805 variety.

What's your 170W SET?

Why do you think you need that much power? What kind of volumes do you listen at, in what size room, and how's your hearing these days?

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 22, 2016 at 23:19:41
morricab
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I will be getting an Ayon Crossfire III soon. I can let you know how that worked out. FWIW, I have also had the KR VA350i on the speaker and the Aries Cerat Diana both of which use a single output tube. Both are a bit more pure sounding but both cost more than my JJ or my Walls.

 

RE: Tube amp clipping is akin to compression......, posted on September 23, 2016 at 05:32:54
horn kid
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I did not say I or anyone NEEDS large power, but I am saying that with a really good sounding SET amplifier that is also more powerful than the typical SET there can be advantages. Big room, but I sit from 4 to 11 feet from the speakers depending on my mood. Typically 82 db peaks, once in a great while I'll boost it to 100 for a minute, but the advantages in dynamics and bass control, as well as in unstrained and unrestrained sound of the mids, is evident at 82db.

Single tube GM100 and single tube QB5 are the configurations I'm talking about for the high powered amps. Other SET amps on hand use 845 (several amps), 45, 300b, 211, 2a3 .......way too many amps, really.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 27, 2016 at 08:45:42
morricab
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Those JJ239s look quite nice and I almost bought a set more than once. However, I never did because I have a feeling that they sound a lot like the JJ322. Could be wrong though as the driver is different, the output tube is different (although it looks to me like the JJ 2A3 is simply their 300B with a lower filament voltage) and there seems to be a bit of negative feedback. However, the power supply design and, importantly, the output transformers are very similar (i.e. Double C cores with thin laminations).

BTW, I got the Ayon Crossfire III and it is VERY transparent and has real balls as well. Nearly as ballsy as my Walls + NAT combo but more transparent it seems. Really good impression so far. I am not sure about the 30 watt rated power as it is probably more like a 20 watt amp but that is plenty and then some for the La Bohemes.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on September 27, 2016 at 09:31:02
I can't imagine needing even 20 WPCH with these speakers, but then my listening room isn't that large.

The Ayon appears to be quite an amp. It should be with that kind of a price tag, FWIW. It would be nice to try something like that out...

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 2, 2016 at 08:57:49
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
If you can't imagine using big amps on efficient speakers, just think of a car with 600 horsepower. It just does not jump off the road with you in it, YOU control the power with the throttle. And even if you don't ever put it wide open, it is so much more responsive to the throttle, so satisfying, you just feel that effortless powerplant in normal acceleration.

Same with the big SET: at 85db you can feel the effortlessness, the ease, the size, the control, the palpability. I've heard fantastic 1 watt amps, but they don't have the effortlessness, the size, the scale, as equally fantastic 20 watters. And fantastic 20 watters don't have the same ease equally good 100 watters. My speakers sound like they go an octave lower and are just more musically convincing with the big amps, even at the same 85db volume, with 102db/watt speakers.

Overkill often helps.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 3, 2016 at 14:17:04
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
Let me make an important point about my lower powered SETs:

I am not denigrating the wonderful SET sound that is available at lower power. In fact, on of my 20 watt SET amps won my heart over a much more powerful push pull amp, which was the best push pull amp I ever had. So, it all becomes relative. I would take that 20 watt SET over any non SET I ever had in 40 years, into my 101+ db speakers. That's a pretty strong statement. I just prefer the higher powered transmitter tube units....which are expensive, and could blow at any time....who knows.....

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 4, 2016 at 07:37:40
And it's the expensive part that's the problem. I'm already playing way out of my league by having bought the Odeons to begin with, then getting the Ultra-Fi monos. The sound I have is very good. Could it be better with a more powerful SET? More'n likely, but it doesn't really matter at this point. I'm going to have to live with what I have, which is pretty damn good, as far as I can tell. I'll leave the perfection part to people with a helluva lot more disposable income than I have ;-)

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 4, 2016 at 15:36:26
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
What a mature post, the one above this. Yes, agreed, when you love your sound, when nothing is annoying you, when you are not wishing for anything, why muck around? Just listening and enjoying is the goal that most people never get to, and that's something about which I complain about the high industry. It becomes about the gear, not music.

Todd, you are wise enough to realize when you have it made. Congratulations on your choices, and congratulation on being able to recognize that.

Enjoy your music!

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 5, 2016 at 08:08:21
Don't be spreading that wisdom stuff around - very bad for my image. ;-)

Make no mistake; my system has its warts. There's a bass feedback issue that only shows up on certain music, and always has me diving for the volume control. Oddly, Alan Parsons "Turn of a Friendly Card" was fine at a fairly high volume level; good solid satisfying bass that really set a foundation for the music, but Angele Dubeau's Ludovico Einaudi sets up a feedback loop that sounds almost like TT wow, and there isn't significant low frequency in the recording, so go figure.

I'll get it squared away eventually. I expect that it probably take a set of wall mounted shelves for the 2A3 monos. Keeps me off the streets.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 6, 2016 at 16:05:22
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Is this with your sub engaged? Btw, the Crossfire has totally eliminated any need or desire to run a sub with the La Bohemes. It goes deeper and with awesome control unlike any other SET I have tried on them...even KR, which set the bass standard for SET with me until now. Tonally, the KR might still have the edge but until I try direct comparison I can't be sure.

 

clipping and distortion content, posted on October 9, 2016 at 07:58:13
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12366
Joined: May 14, 2002
Even if you could output a true square wave whilst trying to deliver a sine, you'd not even get to 50% distortion.

There is all sorts of things that deliver distortion around max power. Grid current discharging coupling caps, or for stages capable of delivering power, the radical change in load when the grid goes positive.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 11, 2016 at 07:08:31
Hey, Brad. Sorry it took so long to respond. I've been out of town with no internet. Not a bad thing sometimes.

Yeah, the subs are engaged. One of the subs is now out from under the bridge table (which did help), but I have nowhere else to put the other one. Until I get to making some wall-mounted shelves for the amps, I may just run both leads into the one sub and take the other out of the system, since I'm sure it's the one under the bridge table that's causing the issues. I'm running the crossover points as low as I can set them, so directionality shouldn't be an issue.

Got a link for that Crossfire amp? What I'm finding on a search is guitar amps. Not that it matters, since there's not likely to be any changes made here for a long time, but I'd like to know what we're talking about.

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 11, 2016 at 14:18:06
Never mind. After I went back and re-read the above posts I was able to find a couple of links. The Crossfire is way out of any range I'll ever be able to afford, but it's nice to know such products exist, since the technology does tend to trickle down. If only economics really worked the same way. ;-)

 

RE: Interesting topic...some thoughts, posted on October 12, 2016 at 08:16:55
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Well, I sometimes was putting my sub in and out of the chain depending on the kind of music. For more bass heavy music I found most amps to sound a bit lightweight on the La Bohemes, which is why the sub from time to time.

Now though with the Crossfire, bass is more than ample and has real weight! It really surprised me...especially with recordings like Yello "Touch" there was seemingly an extra octave that my other amps didn't deliver. Also, it has awesome bass texture and dynamic snap...it is very tight sounding. Tonally, it is lighter overall though than the Wall Opus M50s/NAT Plasma combo. This has good enough bass as well that I was not needing the subs and is richer overall in tone but doesn't have the same inner resolution and soundstage/imaging stabilty of the Crossfire.

So far, I think this is a pretty awesome amp.

 

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