Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 30, 2015 at 14:18:30
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	Frihed89 , Most all SETs I ever hear and / or see, schematically, are TUNERS, not amps !!! Damn few are truthful to the input. Its hard to do either well, but like you, I prefer SE. Jeff Medwin

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 30, 2015 at 16:49:12
Wojciech Audiophile Posts: 4124 Joined: June 23, 2009	Geez Jeff , if you'd only use little more truthful speakers that those console sorry arse Altecs 604 to judge the amps your opinion would carry little more weight ..

If you had said accurate I would agree in most cases, but I have heard . . ., posted on March 30, 2015 at 16:49:15
jnr Reviewer Posts: 2164 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Joined: April 5, 2000	very few transistor amps that are truthful to the emotions, flow, aliveness and tone of a live musical performance. theaudiobeatnik.com

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 30, 2015 at 17:57:44

drlowmu
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For the record, I don't own or even use 604s, and have not had a pair in my home since I was a child. I am talking about ALL my collective SE listening experiences, at RMAF shows, friend's homes, dealer's showrooms, etc.

Speakers are NOT the problem, the biggest TURKEYS ( gobble gobble ) in audio is the amps!! What a sorry lot they are.

Where you and I may possibly differ, experience wise, is, I HAVE heard good SE amps on 604s.

Cheers,

Jeff Medwin

the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on March 30, 2015 at 19:37:28
Cleantimestream Audiophile Posts: 7550 Location: Kentucky Joined: June 30, 2005	~! The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on March 30, 2015 at 19:49:38
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	We can agree to disagree . I think you are WAYYY off !! What if it was headphones ? Cheers and have fun, Jeff Medwin

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on March 30, 2015 at 20:29:44
charles1dad Audiophile Posts: 157 Location: michigan Joined: January 2, 2009	I suppose everyone's idea of "truthful" differs. If you mean in terms of naturalness, I abandoned SS and then PP tubes for SET. Of the three it was the most realistic sounding and the more involving listening experience. I'd expect answers to be all over the map given the unavoidable subjective nature. Tone,timbre, harmonic overtones, presence, believability etc. SET does it better IMHO.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 30, 2015 at 20:34:39

Wojciech
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Jeff
You're right that I've never heard truly great system..Kind of sad since I'm into hi-fi more than 25 years . I hope I'll experience it before I expire. The nice one would be Pakprotector's basement blaster system on rock/folk material , almost life like , and yes directly heated PP amps and horns with "corrupted " PSU ;). Not so great on symphonic/classical unfortunately . I don't believe anymore you can have it all , its either or... . .Most systems I heard in dealers , RMaf's and other audio shows , homes were working class level irrespective of price $2k or $200k .Some of them better some just bombastic junk, some passable. The only constant impression would be that Audio Note UK makes best life style systems available.
I do not believe great 2W 2A3 amp is an answer. Not even with best horn system one can imagine...
All the best , W

"truthful to the emotions, flow, aliveness and tone of a live musical performance", posted on March 31, 2015 at 01:50:34
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	I think we are on the same page. I think "tone" is in the eye of the beholder, also.

OK, then what tube do you prefer, posted on March 31, 2015 at 01:57:16
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	I am partial the 45 because i think it is slightly more accurate sounding, but still retains the magic of SET. Fortunately, or not, that amp can also play 2A3s and I have a pair of AVVT meshplates. I also have an "inexpensive" (in AN terms) 300B power amp with dual C-Core OPTs that i am also starting to enjoy a lot for its mid-range on baritone vocals and a lot of chamber music.

Ahhhhhh...."naturalness" nt, posted on March 31, 2015 at 01:58:39
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	nt

RE: "truthful to the emotions, flow, aliveness and tone of a live musical performance", posted on March 31, 2015 at 03:53:03

morricab
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"I think "tone" is in the eye of the beholder, also."

Not really. The timbre and tone of live instruments is pretty easy to assess and compare against the reproduction. Obviously there is degradation along the way in the recording chain and source but I have found that preamps and amps have a profound affect on the end result.

The one that let's an instrument sound the most like you would hear live is the one that is more accurate to a human. It usually isnt' the one that measures better but this is a side effect of the way engineers normally reduce distortion.

What SS afficianados consider "detail" or accuracy is really an insidious form of distortion caused by negative feedback creating an imbalance between low and high order harmonics. When people complain about "tube sound" this is also form of distortion (usually from transformer saturation).

I find it interesting that when someone says an amp sounds more like live or the real thing that they instantly assume it is "euphonic" rather than simply more accurate than the bleached out sounding "accurate" amplifier.

There is a good Stereophile article where Keith Howard made software to add distortion to recordings. What he found is that none added is the best but as soon as you add something then there is a clear preference for certain distortion patterns and away from other patterns. Since no product is distortion free then you need to look at the one where the distortion is the most invisible to the ear, not to the oscilloscope.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 31, 2015 at 03:56:59
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9175 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	The Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian + Kondo made a believer out of me! That was one hell of a convincing system...I haven't heard anything better...yet. It was laughably better than all other systems at the Munich show last year and far better than I have ever heard anywhere else too.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on March 31, 2015 at 04:39:42

morricab
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While I would agree that they are not absolutely truthful to the input, as far as human listening goes they are RELATIVELY more truthful than nearly all SS amps in my experience. I say nearly because I have yet to hear the First Watt SIT amps or the new Pass XA30.8 that Jack Roberts (A SET fanatic of a reviewer) raves about now.

As ever, the scope says one thing and the ears tell a different story most of the time.

Of course most SETs do some unfavorable things like using inappropriate output transformers or constrictive power supplies that hamper their realism but the best ones are relatively closer to what I hear live and when I make my own recordings.

SS amps only begin to approach this realism and push pull tube amps seem to fall short on overall coherence although again the best ones seem far more realistic to me than any of the SS amps I have heard.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on March 31, 2015 at 04:44:20

morricab
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For me the biggest surprise was that not too long ago I went back from SET and got a nice PP Class A triode amp (VAC 30/30). It sounded great, deep tuneful bass, holographic mids, extended but delicate highs...

Except it was somehow lacking the top to bottom coherence and flow I get from my SETs. Difficult to explain but it was almost like I could hear the handoff between tubes. I had a much stronger effect in the past with a pair of OTL monoblocks. There the transparency was unsurpassed BUT things didn't quite gel together like when you listen live. SET gets closer to this (good SETs at least).

After living with SETs for the last 10 years I can really hear what is different even with great PP amps and I have to say that the coherence has me hooked above all else (the tone of the VAC is wonderful so it is not that).

RE: Ahhhhhh...."naturalness" nt, posted on March 31, 2015 at 06:29:08

Wojciech
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I would put the speakers (drivers rather )in equal position. Some of them simply have that tonal color (or coloration/distortion pattern) which gives the glimpse of life event. Also FM tuners do something they possibly can't have any right to do with their telephone bandwidth and noises.
This may sound contradictory but although I firmly believe that SET are superior audio devices , these days I find fairly cheap , decent SS amps are better for casual listening, less demanding , picky & capricious.
It's probably a mental shift of mine but with SET amp playing I usually marvel about the sound properties , the beauty of notes and soundscape, and the music itself , composers intentions , meanings and the emotions it supposed to convey are kind of lost. Instead, I wonder if tube X or Y or DC couple with LSlSEE squared will inject even more of that beauty and life-likeness into the sound.

+1 ( nt ) , posted on March 31, 2015 at 07:20:49
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	.

RE:There is no truth, posted on March 31, 2015 at 07:41:05
dadbar Audiophile Posts: 1675 Location: Portland OR Joined: June 29, 2003 Contributor Since: March 25, 2006	Given all of the mixing and post production stuff that goes on during the sausage making of a recording, what "truth" could there possibly be? All that matters is that the customer for that art enjoys it during its consumption.

RE:There is no truth, posted on March 31, 2015 at 18:31:27

Tre'
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I have a copy of Sheffield Labs Adam Makowicz. It was recorded with a single point stereo tube microphone. There was no mixing or sausage making.

That recording contains a lot of "truth".

Furthermore, it is my belief that a system that gets this type of recording right will get all types of recording right and the listener will appreciate it given the opportunity (that is to say, the listener needs to educate himself first as to what real acoustic instruments sound like by seeking out live performances of unamplified acoustic music).

I know that most people say this hobby is totally 100% subjective.....but it's not!

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

RE:There is no truth, posted on March 31, 2015 at 19:25:27
elblanco Audiophile Posts: 3486 Joined: August 20, 2004	That which you just typed is truth. It may sound elitist, but it is factual. This is why I conducted tests of lses using a recording that I personally made and concluded it acts like a dynamic expander.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on April 1, 2015 at 00:50:14

Frihed89
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I always thought coherence had more to do with speakers. For example, the more drivers, the easier it may be to get the bass, the mids and the highs to sound very good, but bringing them all together and getting a wide 3-D soundstage is much, much harder.

This is one reason that, for all its limitations, the LS3/5A sounds so good to me with 300B SET amplifiers, of which I have owned two by Audio Note (UK).

I agree!, posted on April 1, 2015 at 02:19:37

morricab
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It is also why for some years I was making my own recordings of classical performances...some in my own apartment and some in a small concert hall. Always with either a stereo pair in Blumlein configuration or mono (better actually with a solo violin).

I also have a very good orchestral recording that was made without trickery and using only a Stereo ribbon microphone...that is a true test of a system I tell you.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on April 1, 2015 at 02:28:43

morricab
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I have found that it has almost as much to do with the amps.

I once demoed a pair of speakers from Sonics (Allegria) that had three modules each with a different kind of driver (metal cone driver, SEas magnessium mid and ribbon tweeter) at a guys place (not in a shop). I had brought with me a KR Audio VA350i and the guy had a Gamut preamp and Gamut amplifier (D200 something or other). With his amp combo, the sound was not coherent and each driver was clearly heard doing its own thing in it's own bubble. I found this disconcerting and difficult to listen to.

After a while we put on the KR Audio and suddenly it was like someone took out a welding torch and welded those drivers together into a whole sounding speaker. It was not a subtle effect. I realized that there was a pretty good speaker there dying to get out that was simply not realized with the Gamut amps. It was one of the most striking examples but I have heard it more subtly many other times.

Yes - it's faithfulness tho live acoustic instruments. , posted on April 1, 2015 at 04:36:50

andy evans
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"The timbre and tone of live instruments is pretty easy to assess and compare against the reproduction."

This is exactly how I feel - I'm a professional musician and the sound of acoustic instruments is permanently imprinted in my brain. I keep going on about timbre and tone mostly talking to the void, but it's nice to come across a kindred spirit.

"The one that let's an instrument sound the most like you would hear live is the one that is more accurate to a human. It usually isnt' the one that measures better."

Amen. Exactly. Humans and music lovers do the actual listening, not robots.

SIT amps are great, posted on April 1, 2015 at 04:40:27
andy evans Audiophile Posts: 4378 Joined: October 20, 2000	A friend brought over a SIT amp and tried it against my PSE 4P1L amp, and damn it was good. Best solid state amp I've ever heard. Massive heatsinks, all class A single ended.

RE: SIT amps are great, posted on April 1, 2015 at 06:14:51
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9175 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	I would think it is definitely worth a listen to. A single active element is a dream in many ways. Here is what I am using now: http://www.nataudio.ch/cms/index.php?page=symbiosis-se-single-ended-integrated-amplifie It is not as simple as the SIT, but the output stage is (only a single bit industrial MOSFET per channel on the output). It is a true integrated with input and driver tubes.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on April 1, 2015 at 10:41:42
drlowmu Manufacturer Posts: 9730 Location: East of Kansas City Joined: January 10, 2005	I always think amps are the weakest and sorriest lot in all of the audio chain, from my experiences. Jeff Medwin

How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 1, 2015 at 12:10:25

Ralph
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Do you have access to the master file or tape of the recording that you are using for reference?

One problem that has to be overcome in a conversation like this is the fact that our ears don't work the same way as the specs on paper. And what really relates to this thread is the simple fact that a SS amp may have less distortion on paper but the distortion is has is really audible to the human ear because the ear uses higher ordered harmonics as cues to determine how loud a sound actually is. Which is to say that it is far more sensitive to these harmonics than it is to the lower ordered harmonics, such that 0.005% is easily audible.

This is a fundamental human hearing rule. If an amplifier is particularly sinful in this area (and most SS amps are) is it more or less accurate and more or less truthful?

I don't agree with Tre- there is a 'truth' but before we can discuss that somehow the issue above has to get sorted first and don't hold your breath. We might be able to solve it here but the industry will continue on its steamroller way and pay no attention at all (after all, this human hearing rule was sorted out in the 1960s...)

RE: How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 1, 2015 at 13:42:56
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17294 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	"I don't agree with Tre" Ralph, I'm shocked. :-) You don't agree that the listener needs to educate himself first as to what real acoustic instruments sound like by seeking out live performances of unamplified acoustic music? Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

Actually, posted on April 1, 2015 at 14:30:45
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4769 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	It was dadbar I didn't agree with, not you. Sorry about that.

I was just goofing., posted on April 1, 2015 at 15:37:04
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17294 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	. Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

RE: How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 1, 2015 at 17:41:09

PakProtector
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There are a whole bunch ov assumptions in there.

Odd HD is not the only reason SS sounds objectionable to some. I am not quite ready to buy into the idea that the usual SS is cranking out enough to drive folks nutty. It is a nice label to attach, no doubt about it. Also, it assumes that even HD is not objectionable or noticeable...IME, tube stuff with the usual SE spectrum of HD turns my ears right off. Totally unacceptable.

So what contributes to SE working as well as it does? Gapped iron for one, as well as short signal path and a minimum of amplification stages come to mind.

Take for example, SS has variable input capacitance. Try listening to something built around a circuit that eliminates that effect.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

LMAO..., posted on April 1, 2015 at 17:50:35

PakProtector
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That PS is indeed corrupted. Corrupted by as-close-to-DC loading as it is possible to deliver. Thank power-limited PP Class A.

BTW, you should try the system now...3-way active, 2 of the 3 bands done with DH pentodes...the bass I still leave to the W6m. Coming soon, 16' de-comb'd sub-woofers...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 1, 2015 at 18:06:40
hvbias Audiophile Posts: 396 Location: New Hampshire Joined: December 18, 2005	Good damping factor (sacrifice some power) with the HIGH voltage DHT output tubes and that is where I feel SET leaves even the best solid state behind. The run of the mill low voltage SET amps... I'll take Pass Labs or FirstWatt.

RE: How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 2, 2015 at 09:20:07

Ralph
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Its not really assumptions, at least not on my part. I've been at this a long time, seen it, heard it and measured it.

Semiconductors often have variable input capacitance. Usually it is non-linear and varies with the current through the device. Some devices, like varactor diodes, take advantage of this 'feature' (ala Microsoft) and are used as a variable capacitance source for tuning FM radios. If you have a car made after about 1979, this is likely how the FM is tuned in it.

This non-linear capacitance contributes to odd-ordered harmonic generation as well as IM. This is *part* of the reason you have to run a fair amount of feedback in most SS designs to get them to work.

The problem is that the application of feedback also causes small amounts of higher ordered harmonics (see Norman Crowhurst). Of course you could just add more feedback and reduce that further, but to do that the amp has to have more gain requiring even more feedback. Its a carrot on a stick.

Note that I tend to say 'higher ordered' harmonics as evens above the 4th are not all that musical to the human ear.

The trick of course with SETs is to keep the power output on the low side (usually less that 20% of full power on peaks) if you want to really hear what the SET does. Almost any SET has a distortion curve that falls to unmeasurable as power is decreased. This is part of that great 'inner detail' that people talk about. Your typical SS amp has distortion that decreases to a point and then rises at power levels below that point.

Due to the ear's masking principle the signal is thus robbed of low level detail.

Disclaimer: Some generalization is employed for brevity.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 2, 2015 at 09:27:18
Al Noakes	I use a hybrid , this uses a directly heated 4P1L triode driver and a choke-loaded mosfet follower output stage . Best of both worlds and reasonably priced to build . I've also got a constant current hybrid on the bench which I'm working on , power supply hardly factors in whatsoever . You can only see signal on the power rail at clipping (which never happens during normal use) . Al

RE: How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 2, 2015 at 16:33:59

Mr_Steady
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"The trick of course with SETs is to keep the power output on the low side (usually less that 20% of full power on peaks) if you want to really hear what the SET does. Almost any SET has a distortion curve that falls to unmeasurable as power is decreased. This is part of that great 'inner detail' that people talk about."

This is why I think with SETs you have to use something super efficient like horns, bi amp, or the like. It's the only way you can get 10 to 12db of headroom out of a three watt amp. Plus what you just said.

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 2, 2015 at 16:43:48
Mr_Steady Audiophile Posts: 2042 Location: North Florida Joined: August 19, 2014	I agree a good to strong damping factor can work wonders for a SET amp. It does have other tradeoffs. The ways I know to effect the damping factor of a SET amp is to push up the primary impedance of the OPT, or the secondary taps. Do you know of any other ways? You mention high voltage. Thanks, Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

I cant help but appreciate the irony of that statement... , posted on April 3, 2015 at 06:42:38

2chJunkie
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And let me start by saying I dont write this to poke at you. Your certainly not the first to say this and wont be the last.

Just that considering 99.99% of all amplified (PA amplified mind you and that figure is a guess of course :) live shows are using SS pro amps in most cases. Clearly if its a live show just using personal amps on the instruments it could easily be only tubes driving said live show. But beyond that... You get the idea.

Makes you wonder then just what kinda sound we are all searching for in live recreation. If one is going to bother worrying about amplifier characteristics that is...

And yes I do own loads of SS and Tube amps of many topologies. They all have their own neat sounds to em. VERY speaker / room / expectation dependent.

Just felt like pointing that out.

Again no poking intended.

RE: Actually, posted on April 3, 2015 at 08:06:50

dadbar
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I celebrate your ability to disagree with me.

The point I was making is that I don't really care about what the music should "really" sound like as long as I am totally enjoying what I hear out of my own system.

I have 7 systems set up around my living envelope (SET, PP, tube, SS) and they all sound very different (much of the difference comes from the room environment, too). Nonetheless, I enjoy listening to them all.....at least 6 of them are not "truthful" but it doesn't matter to me.

Yup! nt, posted on April 3, 2015 at 09:10:28
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4769 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	-

RE: Actually, posted on April 3, 2015 at 09:44:45

Ralph
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I wouldn't call it a severe disagreement really. And I get what you are saying :)

I spend a lot of time in the recording studio and one thing that is abundantly clear is that you can't record what you can hear. Its as simple as that.

So as a result IMO/IME the best you can do is be true to the microphones (and then do your best to place them correctly).

While in the recording booth, usually one tends to think of the headphones as the most accurate, but if you rely on them you will get yourself in trouble pretty quick. They only work if the recording is strictly two microphones/two channels and that's all. Music recording is not about 'truth' the way a court of law might be (which is also debatable...). Its malleable in the way that mic placement yields different results and you have to sort out what is going to work best between the 'phones and the speakers. I do find though that tube mic preamps generally will sound better than solid state, as will a tube recorder, which trumps all things except direct to disc; all that and the amplifier choice is still down the road.

I do find though that even the best solid state amps will impart a brightness that does not otherwise exist in the recording or microphones. In that way I see almost any tube amp as more 'truthful' or accurate.

RE: Actually, posted on April 3, 2015 at 09:48:46

Tre'
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"The point I was making is that I don't really care about what the music should "really" sound like as long as I am totally enjoying what I hear out of my own system. '

That is the way most people feel about the subject but the original goal of the hobby, Hi-Fi, was to reproduce as accurately as possible the sound of the original event.

Since we can't control the recording process, reproducing the recording as accurately as possible is all we can do.

There is nothing wrong with having a different goal but having a different goal means that it's a different hobby.

I call it "Happy, Happy sound machine" with no real disrespect intended.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 3, 2015 at 09:53:03
Maxamillion Audiophile Posts: 856 Location: New Jersey Joined: May 26, 2006	Negative feedback is another way to raise damping factor at the expense of power.

RE: How can you know which is more 'accurate' or 'truthful'?, posted on April 3, 2015 at 09:57:37
Maxamillion Audiophile Posts: 856 Location: New Jersey Joined: May 26, 2006	Unless of course you have a 200W SET.

RE: Actually, posted on April 3, 2015 at 10:49:01
dadbar Audiophile Posts: 1675 Location: Portland OR Joined: June 29, 2003 Contributor Since: March 25, 2006	LMAO. Happy Happy here!

I listen to recorded music....and, posted on April 3, 2015 at 11:28:58

Frihed89
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I haven't heard 90% of the recordings i do have, live. And of the remaining 10% i have heard live, about 50% of them were unlistenable to, live, mainly due to volume and compression by the house engineer.

Lately, I did get a chance to hear Howe Gelb and Grant Lee Phillips, live, with a decent "engineer" at the helm of the sound system and i must say my SETs seem pretty accurate, both in terms of the sound and my imagination.

RE: I listen to recorded music....and, posted on April 3, 2015 at 12:35:48

Tre'
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"Lately, I did get a chance to hear Howe Gelb and Grant Lee Phillips, live, with a decent "engineer" at the helm of the sound system and i must say my SETs seem pretty accurate, both in terms of the sound and my imagination."

I'm sorry but to me that's not a good reference and I'm a live sound engineer.

A good reference is the sound of unamplified acoustic instruments or singing voices.

That, IMO, is the only trustworthy reference.

This is what Harry Pearson meant by "The Absolute Sound".

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

I don't know which one is more truthful but, posted on April 4, 2015 at 10:08:06
bouncy ball Audiophile Posts: 1221 Location: British Columbia Joined: July 26, 2003	The micro dynamic and tone are the reason I prefer SET. Is "Tone" related to harmonic distortion? I don't know but all my non audiophile musician friends they all use tube head amp, some even insist on tube rectified because they like the "tone". Happy long weekend.

RE: Yes - it's faithfulness tho live acoustic instruments. , posted on April 7, 2015 at 14:07:38

morricab
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Living with and recording an extremely talented violinist for about 3 years will do that to you. At one time we had three very valuable violins in the house (each worth a $1M plus) and we started doing some experiments (I am a scientist...go figure) to see what differences we heard and if we could measure them with my real time analyzer. Long story short, we could see clear differences in the measurements when she played the same notes at about the same levels. We also found we could SEE differences with the analyzer when she switched bows (she had one for dynamic fast pieces and one for romantic pieces).

It was a real chore to keep a single violin from overloading the tape recorded (R2R analog) when played in a modest sized room.

RE: the amp carries more signifigance than the speaker? er, respectfully disagree, indeed; the room trumps all~nT, posted on April 7, 2015 at 14:28:54

morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005

I have come to see them as a clear weak link as well; however, one must never forget that for a turntable to generate sound one must have some kind of preamplifier stage + equalization to get a usable sound and a cd player or DAC must have an analog preamplifier on the end to get a usable sound as well. In this sense the source is just as important.

I have found a world class phonostage and will stick with it probably until I die...it just makes all analog sound...better than other phonostages I have tried and/or heard.

As for DACs, I have two I really like and one has been modded by a Lampizator tube output stage but has what I think is the best DAC modules ever put out for OEM use (UltraAnalog 20 bit modules).

One of the most lasting impressions I ever got was when I heard a pair of Odeon Nr. 32 speakers (great stuff) driven by an all Einstein all tube system (they also have hybrids which are not as good). It was scary real with the best recordings and easily the best sound at that show.

The next year was the same system...except the speakers, which this time were Living Voice OBX-R2s. The sound...was exceptionally good again and best sound at the show. It was not QUITE as good as with the Odeons (those speakers are really pretty awesome) but considering how conventional the LVs are for the most part it was a real lesson in the source, preamp and amp importance to me.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 8, 2015 at 09:37:53

TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007

I think most of the SET systems I have heard sound more "real" and "life like" than ANY SS system I have heard.

I have been a SET/horn owner for ~two decades and all SS sounds subtly wrong IMHO. Perhaps I am just comfortable with the sound I identify as SET sounding but SETs have more detail, more cohesive sound, more believable tone, etc etc.

I can enjoy music from any system but SETs really do it for me. I have not heard a SS amp in years that caused me to say "I need that" but I regularly hear plenty of SETs that do that. Most of these SET amps are DIY so I can't really throw out component names for you.

RE: Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems, posted on April 9, 2015 at 19:27:50

rusiee
Audiophile

Posts: 30
Location: Perth, Australia
Joined: July 19, 2013

I dont like to think in black and white terms when it comes to this topic. Althouth I use SET amplification, SS has it merits. The main strength of SET is in its time neutrality when reproducing music. On the other hand, SS on most part is tonaly neutral. Its a similar thing between CD and Vinyl. People accept coloration of vinyl because of its virtues in reproducing timing in the music which is its real strength.

RE: SIT amps are great, posted on April 13, 2015 at 10:20:39
KeithR Audiophile Posts: 299 Joined: February 22, 2001	they are great, but 10W isn't enough for most speakers. which he did a P-SIT version.

RE: LMAO..., posted on April 15, 2015 at 17:31:16
rage Audiophile Posts: 793 Joined: December 17, 2010	I seem to recall thinking a real helicopter was in the room when I visited Douglas.

SET Asylum

Who thinks SS systems are generally more "truthful" than SET systems

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