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Three questions, if you will, please

62.44.135.122
Posted on December 31, 2014 at 00:27:42
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 1, What is the best sounding SET amplifier you have ever heard (DIY or commercial)?

2. What is the best sounding SET amplifier you own/built?

3. Are you going to add/replace an SET amplifier in 2015. Which one?

I know the amplifier isn't the only component that counts, so you can add the rest if you like.

My answers:

1. All Audio Note very high-end Ongaku integrated-based system.
2. Don Garber 2A3/45 monos with 45 tube
3. Probably not.

Happy New Year in 15 hours from Zulu+1.

 

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RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on December 31, 2014 at 08:34:57
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 My answer is the same as yours for number 1. Amps start with the transformers - I am inclined to believe based on the sound that Audio Note makes the best transformers in the industry. Some high end companies secretly or not so secretly buy them and other parts from them. Can't get away from the parts quality.

2 Line Magnetic 219IA because I like the 211/845 bigger fuller sound and Audio Note is just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO expensive. Line Magnetic designs and builds their own transformers based on Western Electric - so if you're going to "copy" copy from the standard playbook and then overbuild it.

3 Intention is to buy a preamp (likely from Audio Note). I want to try Line Magnetic's preamps but Audio Note is ultimately more refined - albeit this is somewhat difficult to assess since both make different tube output amplifiers - LM is 845/212 and AN is more 300B/211/2A3/45

There are some other ones that interest me but I also don;t want to screw up the synergy with my AN E.

 

Hard to say, I've heard quite a few great amps...., posted on December 31, 2014 at 08:58:51
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

Josh's 'ElectronLuv' 75tl>75tl mono-blocks, as pictured above and when finally upgraded to Tribute Iron, likely tops my list sonically.

In my system, Josh's 45>845 amps, as owned by Ed Sawyer, was as good as it will ever get at my house, but I didn't build them and I only borrowed them for a couple hours. :-(

If I ever get a place to work, I have the makings of the 45>845, including all of the Tribute Iron, but I doubt I will ever get that done. Chassis would be way beyond my means.

So I've got one out of three answered.





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on December 31, 2014 at 10:22:38
HiFiOd
Audiophile

Posts: 707
Location: Oakland, Califonia
Joined: May 30, 2001
 Best Ive heard?
Probably the Komuro 845 monoblocks, which may actually be Push Pull. Audio Note and Shindo also are memorable experiences at Deja Vu's showroom, and at Living Stereo in NYC.
My current SET amp is a Fi X (2A3 w/ Mq iron), I had to sell my Fi 300B monos which I still lament...
I am thinking of a 300B amp wheter Don can get the Power transformers for a Fi X3, (Jack Elliano is no longer spinning those) or go for an AN kit or a Bottlehead Paramount kit, and of course scoping out A'gon for something else.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on December 31, 2014 at 13:22:37
jnr
Reviewer

Posts: 2164
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 1, Wavac EC300B with Western Electric or Elrog tubes

2. Same

3. Only if I change to a less efficient speaker

theaudiobeatnik.com

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on December 31, 2014 at 15:28:36
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 1. 27 > 12B4A > 801A

2. 801A

3. Don't plan on it but a Px4 has intrigued me.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on December 31, 2014 at 17:31:09
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 1. My current 6C6-2A3 SET amp (but I have only heard one other SET amp many years ago, it used early manufacture high dissipation Vaic 300Bs, but I can't remember the full topology)

2. See above.

3. Yes. I am currently planning a directly-coupled version of the 6C6-2A3 SET amp, hopefully to be completed in the first half of the year.

Regards and Happy New Year.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 05:09:27
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 1. Best sounding SE amp (not necessarily heard in my system) is 3 way tie: My homemade 46, Horus 2A3 heard on Volti Vittoras, and Serious Stereo 2A3. I have no way of picking one over the other since they weren't heard at the same time or in the same system.

2. My 417a-Slagle IT-46-EP Partial Silver OPT. Very simple; very nice sounding.

3. No specific plans for 2015, but we are only one day in. Anything could happen over the next 364.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 05:50:14
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
 1, Absolare Passion Signature PSET 845,Viva Aurora 845, Coincident Frankenstein MK II.
2,Frankenstein MK II.
3,Very curious about the new Ocellia Quaero 300b mono blocks with silver wired output transformer and circuit.I love their superb
Silver Reference cables, so would like to hear their SET. In reality I'm quite content and happy with what I have..

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 06:28:21
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 Easy - best sounding SET I've ever heard and also built is my PSE 4P1L amp. No cathode bypass caps, no signal caps, all filament bias, all transformer coupled.

I'm not changing it because I don't know any other kind of build that would sound better. I've built numerous 300b, 2a3 etc amps and this beats them all.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 06:38:59
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 > best sounding SET I've ever heard and also built is my PSE 4P1L amp.
> No cathode bypass caps, no signal caps, all filament bias,
> all transformer coupled.

Hi, Andy! Have you tried to build parafeed version with mosfet CSS and no-gap transformer?

 

But then you throw a cap into the works, a big one., posted on January 1, 2015 at 08:33:50
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
 Not that I mind caps, but if you are going all iron, you go all iron.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 10:37:30
mikeval
 1. Ongaku (at Nick Gowan's) all that quality (SET) power,so many speaker's, so little time.

2. Garber's 421a, a most musical system driver.(almost tactile !)

3. No.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 11:14:22
hifipaul
Audiophile

Posts: 735
Location: NY
Joined: December 22, 2008
1: DIY 6C6(triode strapped)-6900-xfmr -842/10y. The amp was designed to accomodate many many output tubes, but the 842 or 10y sound best.

2: 76-46-nickel output. Only 1 watt. Great on the horns.

3: SE 300b and 6cb5 amps are on the bench right now.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 11:42:29
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 Do you have a schematic for the 27 > 12B4A > 801A. I assume this wasn't a commercially available product. Thanks in advance.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 13:51:48
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Let me see what I have.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 14:34:02
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 Paul, I am very curious about the triode strapped 6C6. Any details of operating points how the strapping was accomplished?

Any assistance is much appreciated.

Regards,
91
"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 15:46:25
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 I'd like to see the schematic too. I have a lot of 27's and nothing right now that uses them.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 1, 2015 at 20:11:00
k-k-k-kenny
Audiophile

Posts: 552
Location: Melbourne
Joined: May 5, 2007
 1. Luxman MB-300 and Weston Acoustics Artisan 300B (made in Oz, right down to the OPTs he winds himself with 31 interleaves - a juicilicious dual mono SN7-> 300Bs in parallel thing)
2. Both the above
3. Hardly ...

 

On AN OPTs, posted on January 2, 2015 at 01:32:07
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I haven't tried a lot of OPTs, but I have tried a few and read a lot. I sort of agree with you about AN OPTs, but oh my God the prices! I've had their hi-B's in two different AN amps and they were were/are very good. But I also like Magnequest OPTs and am thinking of going to a Magnequest model with silver secondaries for my Fi 2A3/45 monos.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 2, 2015 at 12:29:00
calloway
Audiophile

Posts: 729
Joined: February 12, 2000
 Chalice Audio 'Grail' ..only 2 in use.The people who have heard them think they are the best tube amps and maybe the best amps..certainly the most musically and tonally correct amps i have heard.I am one of the 2 owners and i would not trade them for any amp in the world at any cost.

 

What about , posted on January 2, 2015 at 15:25:41
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 a Serious Stereo 2A3? You have to trust your ears

 

I'm guessing, posted on January 2, 2015 at 16:39:13
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 2454
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
 No one who owns one would be brave enough to post here for fear of the unaviodable dog pile. I wonder if 2015 could be a bit less contentious on AA and a bit more collaborative? Probably not. I especially object to those (on either sides) who bait each other. I sure wish we could get back to audio. I thought that was the intent of the forum.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 2, 2015 at 16:51:05
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002

Input transformer into a 5687, IT coupled to a fixed biased 300b, IT coupled to fixed biased, paralleled 845s......nice!

I bet they sound great. They certainly look great!

I'm feeling a little green right now. :-)

Tre'



Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Amen, posted on January 2, 2015 at 18:13:59
deafbykhorns
Audiophile

Posts: 1067
Location: Florida
Joined: October 17, 2003
 .

 

RE: I'm guessing, posted on January 2, 2015 at 18:58:49
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Dennis and Jeff sponsoring a sub forum would be a step in the right direction. They can call it "Modern Power Supply" or Measurements don't matter, Trust your Ears". It would clear up this chatter.

 

Got a photo?, posted on January 2, 2015 at 20:03:56
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Would love to see it.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: I'm guessing, posted on January 2, 2015 at 21:23:01
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 2454
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
 So obviously the answer to my question is, no.

 

RE: I'm guessing, posted on January 2, 2015 at 21:31:27
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
I'm afraid it wouldn't. While I was gone from this forum, it degenerated into schematic-sharing (schematics which I would never build anything out of-- for many technical reasons, the main ones being that they DO NOT perform well enough, and are not reliable enough).

It sported the trading/sharing of old, and almost totally forum-approved worn-out electronic/audio theory-- and produced nothing of unusually high quality, yet still had plenty of the usual backbiting anyhow.

Actual audio performance that sounds most like a live performance remains the standard, but it was largely ignored here except when someone questioned the status-quo long enough to actually think logically, and then act without bowing to and paying homage to professionally herd-trained mentalists that produce strictly ordinary results.

All of that is quite normal in any public forum, it's a part of human nature. The fact that it occurs here should not be considered unusual.

It is when we advance BEYOND normal negative human behavior, become pro-active and look for REAL excellence that we are finally able to become logical, forget what is inferior that we already know, and advance beyond that and start independently searching for the Best.

The Best IS attainable, it is not usually done on forums and is almost never approved of there.

---Dennis---

 

I don't agree with this statement by Dennis, posted on January 3, 2015 at 01:49:57
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 "Actual audio performance that sounds most like a live performance remains the standard..."

With the qualifier that i am not a musician - like Andy Evans - who knows what instruments really sound like, my position is that SET appeals to the personal emotions aroused from memories of listening to certain live performances. SET sucks you into the performance; while the most "truthful" systems just lay it out in front of you to dissect and observe. (This is Bob Neill's distinction, not mine, but I agree 100%).

Our ears are antennas; the brain reorganizes the signal to match what our experience holds most dear.

I remember sitting down with you Dennis, alone, in your room at RMAF long ago, listening to a Native American woman soloist and my memory of our conversation is that what you (and I) heard was the beauty of her voice - "the rapture", not the truthfulness of a live performance.

We are an imaginative group...

So much for projecting my own beliefs on others.

 

4P1L PSE Schematic, posted on January 3, 2015 at 03:30:18
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000



Here's the schematic. All the details matter to the sound - you can't simplify or go conventional and alter things. The cathode resistors must be at least vitreous enamel quality and rated double their wattage. The filament supply needs to use Rod Coleman's regs or something as good (his are the best already, though) and ideally the DC supply to them should be choke input. The transformers must be at least Lundahl quality, or better if you can get Tango, Tamura etc. But once you've built the amp, maintenance is very cheap. No 300bs to eat into your budget. Once you have a stock of 50 or so 4P1Ls you're set for many years.

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 03:35:26
deafbykhorns
Audiophile

Posts: 1067
Location: Florida
Joined: October 17, 2003
 I know you mentioned sharing schematics so this should really belong in the DIY forum....
Building an old schematic/design is all a part of the learning experience. Most of us appreciate input from you, Jeff and many others that contribute to this forum. But, it's very arrogant to think a design is the "end all be all". Not everyone has the same tastes and are not always satisfied with 105db or less. Personally I'm maturing to these tastes but in the past liked to crank it up every once in a while to blow the cobwebs out. In the future (when I'm not so damn busy working) I will build an amp using your "modern power supply", I will not express an opinion until I HEAR IT with my own ears.
Let's change this forum in 2015 and have some constructive discussions.
Happy new year!

 

That's unnecessarily paranoid, posted on January 3, 2015 at 03:55:43
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 Dennis, I agree with a lot of what you say about endless re-workings of 300B/2a3/45 amps with high mu drivers. It's an old formula, but there again it works, and you've used basically the same idea but with a number of novel twists to it. So the old and the new together.

We have a lot of evolutionary circuits and they steadily get better, so that's not a bad thing. But we've also had some revolutionary ideas that haven't been cast out - on the contrary they've been well received and incorporated into further experiments. One such was filament bias which Thomas Mayer popularised. This has now been used in many good 26 preamp designs. I took it a stage further and used it in the output stage of a PSE 4P1L amp since the 4P1L is one of the absolute best candidates for filament bias. Works like a charm. That was well received and there have been some builds of it with good results. I didn't get any animosity or lack of acceptance.

Bottom line - there are a lot of formidable intellects on this forum. This is highly technical work, and in terms of personalities you would expect them to be fairly radical thinkers - we're using tubes here not solid state. Portraying the forum as a load of fuddy duddies immune to new ideas is just not the case at all, in fact it's far from it. I'm in awe of a lot of the forum members, and a few have been my gurus through my building experiments.

And in any case, circuits survive on their merits which is good scientific sense. One of the problems you're probably referring to is that there may be a period of months or years before newer ideas circulate and get incorporated into builds, so there's still a lot of the old around. But I bet if you looked at the workshops of forum members and saw what is actually being built as we speak there would be some nice fresh ideas happening which we'll get to hear of later.

So when you say "Actual audio performance that sounds most like a live performance remains the standard, but it was largely ignored here except when someone questioned the status-quo long enough to actually think logically, and then act without bowing to and paying homage to professionally herd-trained mentalists that produce strictly ordinary results" I completely agree with the ideal of radical thinking from first principles and of reproducing the actual sounds of acoustic instruments. All good. But I wouldn't call a number of members here (many of whom I know personally or communicate with) "herd trained mentalists". That's not right and it's not fair.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 3, 2015 at 04:02:21
calloway
Audiophile

Posts: 729
Joined: February 12, 2000
 Tre'..thanks for posting a pic. that was great.they do sound amazing..the original review on PFM was of the original prototypes. mine have been upgraded many times.

 

Number One is easy, posted on January 3, 2015 at 04:13:48
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 1. Jim Dowdy's (A.K.A. The Dowdy Lama) three chassis GM-70 amplifier. Musically magical. See the Emerald City come to life in the video below.






2. Caution: blasphemy ahead. Does two out of three count? The amp I use most often is Single Ended, but not Triode, nor even tubed [Gasp!]. The First Watt F1J. The only SS amp I've enjoyed in many years, and a great match with my Horn Shoppe Horns.





3. No distinct plans as of yet, but that's the reason I've been lurking around the SET Asylum. I'm looking for ideas, and inspiration. My soldering iron's been cool for too long.

 

RE: Our ears are antennas; the brain reorganizes the signal to match what our experience holds most dear.", posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:01:44
amioutaline?
 Ground Truth!

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:06:12
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 I have an Emotive Audio Erato preamp, 27's w/ 6SN7 CF, in one system, and DIY 37>6j5>VT25 power amps in my main system. That's why I am interested in this amp.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

RE: I'm guessing, posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:12:08
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 with apologies to Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell, it's more like Groundhog's Day than New Years at the Asylum, and the same tune is played over and over by some of the inmates.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

RE: I'm guessing, posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:30:08
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 See Dennis's post for your answer. He and Jeff like to stir the pot.

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 05:57:34
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 This is what has been lost is all of this arguing. Little of it has to do with what the "modern power supply" sounds like. Its the made up science passed off as a documented truth. If Dennis and Jeff said, "we don't care about measurements and proper engineering, we just focus on the sound we like"...these threads would not be so long. Its the holier than thou based on made up stuff. They can say "we like a noisy power supply" and leave the engineering to others. I have yet to read someone say, they don't like the sound of Jeff or Dennis' amps. I know a guy that has Dennis amps. He loves it and he has had over 50 amps, including two or three I sold him. He does not care why they sound the way they do. He just likes them but he is not here try to pass off faulty knowledge as some truth.

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 3, 2015 at 06:01:19
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I will check my files when I get back to work. I used to own an Erato also and then the Sira. I like Fred Volz, I ended up with a 12B4A line stage because of his work on preamps. I used the 27 and 12B4A after being tipped off to those by Fred Volz. You don't see Fred and his father on this board hawking their ideas like someone else we know. BTW, the philco STs are very good as are some of the mesh ST. The globes were just too microphonic for me.

 

Thanks much, posted on January 3, 2015 at 06:08:37
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 I appreciate you looking for the schematic. I currently use a Sira in my main system with the VT25 amps, that is until I get around to building a version of Thomas Mayer's 10y pre that I have collected all the parts for.. Fred's a real standup guy. My wife is from a small town near State College PA, so I have met with Fred on several occasions.

Thanks again.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

Another former Erato owner, posted on January 3, 2015 at 06:45:33
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 Like you I had an Erato for a while and enjoyed it very much. That led to Fred Volz building me a 12B4 preamp and later some Vita power amps. The 12B4 preamp and power amps are still in my system and will hopefully continue to be my everyday electronics for quite a while.

 

RE: Thanks much, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:05:19
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Fred is excellent. Actually, he worked with James Burgess on a pair of amps that James built for a guy a few years back (based on Fred's design). James gave Fred some suggestions on his power supply and circuit that Fred incorporated into his amps. I really like my 801A. If you have any interest, put some teflon caps in the Sira, if they don't already have them.

 

RE: Another former Erato owner, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:07:34
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Great minds thing alike. I used the 12B4A in my full function preamp that replaced my Sira LE. I am now using an E80CC line stage that I like very much but would love another 12B4A line stage just to have.

 

Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 3, 2015 at 07:25:47
blues4ever
Audiophile

Posts: 1004
Location: New Mexico
Joined: May 28, 2003
Contributor
  Since: June 22, 2010
 1. The only SET I've ever heard is a Bottlehead Stereomour, bone stock.

2. Same as 1. My wife gave it to me for Christmas 2013. I had a great time building.

3. I'm not gonna get anything different but I may do some parts upgrades.
For perfect tone use Columbia Needles
For Best results use Victor Needles
For best results use OKEH Needles

 

RE: Three questions, if you will, please, posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:19:01
Paully
Audiophile

Posts: 5909
Location: West Virginia
Joined: February 15, 2004
 1 and 2 are the same. My Bottlehead Paramounts configured for 45. On number 3, I might build a 300B this year. Don't know.

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:52:09
awsjr
Audiophile

Posts: 235
Location: Austin, Tejas
Joined: November 30, 2006
 I am sick of this....you are a condesending arrogant know it all.... no one is a smart as you and your side kick...no one knows what sounds good, how to build an amp and so many other things that spew from your big mouth....all you post is pontificated BS... can't back anything up you say with any sort of technical knowledge....stop continuing insulting people or just go away....

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 3, 2015 at 08:57:24
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 There's a better world out there!

Search for it.

---Dennis---

 

RE: Thanks much, posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:15:29
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 I would love to recap w/ VH Teflons, but then I would never get off my but and build the Mayer 10Y.

As you know Fred, are you in the mid Atlantic?
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:29:41
awsjr
Audiophile

Posts: 235
Location: Austin, Tejas
Joined: November 30, 2006
 your world of self delusion is the best... you are so full of yourself

 

V-Caps, posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:31:01
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 I agree with the Teflon output cap suggestion. The 12B4 preamp Fred built for me has V-Cap TFTF caps on the output (a pair of 2uf for each channel).

 

RE: That's unnecessarily paranoid, posted on January 3, 2015 at 09:47:37
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 Thanks, Andy.

I did go a bit over the top. MY bad....

No excuses from me. Call it exhaustion if you please. I just get a lot of BS. The other day a guy got into me for talking about using G.E. Silicone2 in many chassis. He must have assumed that I never made that many amps. That was jumping to conclusions-- I also modified a lot of them. Now, where do you mount that new, extra component?????? And how.......

In building and servicing movie theatres, I ran across all sorts of audiophile amps, and most of the commercial ones. Many of you know of those.

Well, my clients wanted better sound in their theatres and were willing to pay to get it. That allowed me to use any amps I wanted, or modify or build them.

Needless to say, if any of those amps went down on the job, I got called. It might be 750 miles from here, or more. That extra trip would negate anything I might have earned on the first trip-- those amps had to run for years without any servicing except for tubes every 3 years or so.

Now, let's see-- how many tube amps can do that? Maybe ONE brand, and only two models of that? It truly is that bad-- and it always was. Even the often revered W.E. Model 91 had reliability problems and sounded really bad.

It sounded VERY mushy and narrow-banded, it sounded like a cheap Clock-Radio. I hated them. Every time I saw one, I told the guy to get me a pair of McIntosh MC-60's, and let me redesign them, which, when finished--really performed. It was that, or let me put in good Solid-State amps.

For my own personal stuff, I tried S.E. amps because I knew they COULD BE MADE to work. At the time, none did, and I had tried them all, several from builders that are revered here almost every day. I was FORCED to design my own S.E. by the fact that the others didn't get with the music--or the programs-- in any meaningful way.

So, I fixed that problem also. The only problem I have with some people here-- and they are very few-- is that they just keep re-hashing all those loser-amps and their old technologies-- that never work well enough to convince someone that he is actually at a live performance-- which is what a movie theatre is supposed to do-- and what home audio SHOULD do!

And their reliability-- OH, MY! While being OK for at-home persons who can keep them serviced, it isn't remotely close to what one COULD have.

Some people are still playing with "adjustments" pots in amplifiers. WHY? You don't need adjustments-- you just need good designs.

And some people are still playing with Mercury tubes and rectifiers which slowly lose the Mercury through their glass envelopes. Well, the last time I looked, Mercury was the #1 Health-Wrecker in the USA. Mercury is THE most toxic element, according to numerous on-line health experts.

Some people don't believe me, of course, and that is their right, but why did I keep finding brand-new Mercury-vapor tubes in movie theatre's NOS vacuum tube stocks, which had so little Mercury left in them that they wouldn't operate?

I soon found out why! It was that super-thin grey scum that was on everything in the projection room-- objects in there-- in many, many old theatres felt a little "slick", and had duller colors than the same objects found elsewhere.. It was Mercury scum. People were even getting it on their hands while operating the projection room!

Andy, that's always been the problem with idealists like me-- we're aware of what COULD BE, and that puts us at odds with WHAT IS.

WHAT IS is always defended against what COULD BE.

I may be one of the few who brought the better COULD BE into WHAT IS... I actually did it.

I don't want any credit for it, and I don't make my living out of electronics in any case. I make a living doing construction work and building homes, used to drill oil wells, and ran resting labs at uranium mines. I once owned several movie theatres, and I did what it takes to transport an audience to the scenes audibly. It was fun, and it could work for others who love music like I do.

---Dennis---

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 10:05:37
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
I might just casually mention something about large-scale dynamics, blowing the cobwebs out, etc., and about keeping musical instruments separated in time-domain while complex, powerful music is playing loudly.

Loud is GREAT-- if it's CLEAN.

Now, that's just what I like.

Now, how do you suppose I got that?

---Dennis---

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 10:12:47
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 I'm saying this to you with the utmost respect-- we're arguing over engineering, not building to taste.

I NEVER build to ANY taste, I build to exactly replicate all the qualities of an input signal.

I look at this as a dynamic, moving, changing set of elements, not as static, non-moving targets that can easily be measured.

The object is to keep hitting moving targets dead-center as they are moving and mixing with each other. How do we keep instruments that are buried in the mix-- both distinct, powerful, and standing out-- yet not let anything dominate-- how can we follow ALL of the studio mix as it was laid down?

We're arguing how to engineer that, not how to build to a certain taste.

---Dennis---

 

RE: I don't agree with this statement by Dennis, posted on January 3, 2015 at 10:20:00
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
What you heard was what the woman sounded like in the studio.

There were no euphonics present, just the track being played accurately.

That's not to any taste, it's what she actually did in the studio.

If you'd like ONE component that gets this totally right, then get Berkeley Audio Design's new "reference" DAC.

---Dennis---

 

RE: Another former Erato owner, posted on January 3, 2015 at 10:23:11
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 12B4 and 12A4 are nice!

---Dennis---

 

Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 3, 2015 at 14:08:57
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 The more you post the more idiotic the message. Please spare us. Those that want to follow you and Dennis can easily do so in a sub forum. You don't see the OTL folks here stirring up the pot.

 

Right on!, posted on January 3, 2015 at 14:48:21
Ray Moth
Audiophile

Posts: 2784
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Joined: November 10, 2003
 You got it awsjr. But DF and JM are protected here and we are not, so don't be surprised if these posts get erased.

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 16:29:15
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 I think that the flashpoint for the ongoing arguments here are largely to do with "made up science passed off as a documented truth." I'll add to that "passed off as absolute truth, for all people all the time" and the off-topic responses to questions.

The ongoing behaviour - the thinly-veiled baiting, personal insults, off-topic jibes and apparent animosity - goes well beyond this. I think we should be well past blaming others for their actions while ignoring at our own part in this. I'm asking those involved where they believe their power lies: do they have an internal or external locus of control - do those involved believe they are responsible for their own actions? What are they trying to achieve and do their actions support their desired outcomes? Does their behaviour reflect well on their profession and would it be applauded by fellow members of their professional/member bodies?

There are a lot of people with much to contribute here, obviously. It is a disappointment that apparent professionals and intelligent people cannot conduct themselves in a manner that promotes constructive outcomes. Moreover, the moderators are failing to do what is required to this end.

It is starting to look like a lost cause.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 3, 2015 at 16:41:49
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 My father had a saying: A specialist knows more and more about less and less.....

 

RE: Right on!, posted on January 3, 2015 at 18:30:02
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Ray,

Incorrect !! WHAT in the world makes you thing JM and DF are protected here ?

The posts that got erased are ones not fit for proper decorum, like GEO's pictures of Flies on Feces, or Pigs with make-up.

They didn't kick GEO off the Forum, or issue him a warning I surmise, they JUST deleted his posts that were crass and in poor taste.

I say the Bored has been very fair. If its out of line, and complaints are brought to their attention, they will act in a fair and legitimate way to clean up trash.

Jeff

 

Eddie Vaughn was the first am aware whom recognized it's audio value~nT, posted on January 3, 2015 at 19:02:25
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Right on!, posted on January 3, 2015 at 19:13:23
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 A picture is worth a thousand words

 

RE: Right on!, posted on January 3, 2015 at 21:12:53
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The truth is even better.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: I have to disagree somewhat, posted on January 4, 2015 at 00:13:58
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 Yep, it is certainly a saying from ye olde days that in principle has some truth even today. There are plenty who comply that description - some make meaningful contributions and some don't.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 4, 2015 at 01:58:54
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Listening to recorded music is generally a form of self-delusion - a very enjoyable one. Some of what we do to "enjoy life" occurs by accident, but it is, nevertheless, real. The explanation is sometimes debatable.

But WTF!

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 4, 2015 at 08:31:58
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 Opps I see the the Medwins have been crying to the moderators again.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

Toss up for number 1, posted on January 4, 2015 at 12:54:40
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9176
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 1) Either the KR Audio Kronzilla DX monoblocks or the Kondo Gaku-Oh monoblocks

2) KR Audio VA350i

3) I might replace my NAT Symbiosis SE (it has a FET output stage but it is still SE(T)) with ??

 

Almost forgot the Wavac HE-805, posted on January 4, 2015 at 12:56:53
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9176
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 This one shocked the hell out of me when I heard it...amazing...also a toss up for Nr. 1!

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 5, 2015 at 18:07:13
lakerfan
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Joined: April 9, 2002
 I love you guys !!!!! Suffered some losses this past year and after having not visited this site for a while, it's good to read I guess that the madness of the asylum still rules. GEO, you telling Dennis to beat it is the best laugh I've had in months . Thank You for the laugh !! I know NOTHING about tech stuff. Nothing ! But Percy Heath once told me in private that no matter what anybody tells you " the ears don't lie". And true enough we all "hear" stuff differently, and I have most respect for GEO and Tube Wrangler. And perhaps he rants, and a lot of it may be hot air but, and this is a big but for me..... Tube Wrangler's amp is the" best", un-disputed best freaking amp I have EVER heard. Period , end of story. So when I read the stuff he says and how much it pisses folks off,it just might be snake oil....... but for me, he knows something that I was chasing for years. I could not put my finger on it until I heard his amp. For me it's the truth. So what he says does not bother me in the least bit. Damn this amp brings joy. Let him be, for there has to be "something" in what he says for him to build this amp. With a pair of AVVT 2A3 mesh plates ???? DAMN

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 13:24:16
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 "And true enough we all "hear" stuff differently"

What does this even mean?

While we all have slight differences in frequency response etc, nobody I have ever met would mistake a clarinet for a lawnmower.

Nobody says "I bet this band would sound way better with a lawnmower"

"Tube Wrangler's amp is the" best", un-disputed best freaking amp I have EVER heard."

So we can surmise you have one of GEO's amplifiers and prefer the sound of the amp built by tube strangler?

Drlomu implied you have owned upwards of 60 SET amplifiers, would it be fair to say you might have eccentric tastes?

The OP has heard a "serious stereo" and prefers the Audio Note.
I find this a more trustworthy, then say someone who may very well have been summoned to this thread for defensive measures.

Why does everyone within this marketing circle SPORADICALLY apply CAPITAL letters in their grandiloquent RESPONSES?

Cheers
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 14:00:27
lakerfan
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Joined: April 9, 2002
 Nope , I don't have a dog in this fight. Audio Note ?? Nope sorry, not even close. As to GEO, we have a "history". I have purchased many of his amps on Audiogone.
Eccentric taste ? Maybe that all depends. I come from a family of musicians. I "know" what live music sounds like. I grew up in a home where I knew Miles, Monk and Trane as well as my ABC's. So if natural sounding uncompressed music makes my taste "eccentric or suspect you then oh well. Duke Ellington once said there are only TWO kinds of music Good and Bad. As far as Dennis goes I bought his amp on a dare, cause I to grew weary of all his bloviating. Then I listened...... I heard the "truth". End of story. I no longer buy gear. I just listen to music. Life is good. Be kind and have a wonderful year. I'm going to go back to listening to this eccentric cat at the moment. Eric Dolphy

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 14:21:31
lakerfan
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Joined: April 9, 2002
 One more thing.... there is another amplifier I call "The Truth". It's built by another very special builder. It's called a 10-Square. The guy who built it does not post much I guess, but assuming you are a lover, if you ever get the chance, taste either one of these SETS. They continue to bring such joy to my spirit. I'm not one to argue but I'm thankful for the guys who lead me to both of these amps. By periodically telling folks about this experience, it's my way of perhaps leading someone to something very special, who like me chased amps for years.

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 14:55:29
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 You have missed the entire point of the threads. No one is saying his amps don't sound good. It is the made us science that he is passing off as facts and the technical advice that is just not right. Jeff and Dennis like the way their amps are tuned and many people agree. Its like JHogan. Noboby would build amps the way John did but he never came on the board and said everyone else amp is wrong and his is right. These arguments have little to do with the sound of his amps if you have been following the threads. They are so specific in their power supply builds and their methods, that he should sponsor a forum like the OTL instead of hijacking the SET forum whenever someone posts a question.

Your buddies said the their are problems with the power supply in your 10 squared which is a stacked supply, I believe. Larry does not mind them but that is reason why Dennis and Jeff should just sponsor a forum like Ralph does from Atma-Sphere. It would clean up the sight. Nobody would go there to visit other than those seeking to drink from their water cooler. I don't know why they are so opposed to it?

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 15:05:54
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Jeff and Dennis claim to have broken some bounds of known science. Don't you think it is noteworthy to document something so profound as the theory of relativity? This is not about what the amps may or may not sound like but rather, made up stuff to try to explain it. It may do them and everyone else some good to document and subject their work to peer review which is typical in the scientific community but for some reason, engineering an amplifier is beyond science but engineering a TV is not? Its silly. They should sponsor their own sub forum here (like atmosphere does in the OTL forum) so that their devotees and those that want to adopt their principles can follow them. Do you seen anyone over in the digital section bashing digital because they like analog?

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 15:27:35
lakerfan
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Joined: April 9, 2002
 I agree. I'm no "fan". I dont read their "stuff". You perhaps know BS when you read it. I simply don't read his stuff anymore. Have not for a while . Not meaning to be insensitive to your exasperation, I simply don't read it. What I found humerous was the fact that I have not really been keeping up with the Forum like I used to, but the moment I decided to have a peek.......... Dennis is still at it. Hilarious !

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 15:40:05
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Happy new year. I posted some nice jazz cds I picked up in 2014. If you are looking for some fresh music, take a look. I still have my 801A :)

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 15:51:46
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



GEO,

Wait a minute, SHOW me please where there is an Atmosphere Forum ?

I don't see one. If you see "all theses posts" by Ralph, might they be in the OTL FORUM, because Ralph builds OTLs ??

Dennis and I are interested in SETs, so... why not post in the SET ASYLUM ??

Are you making-up things like an "Atmosphere Forum" up in your mind, dear Sir? Good imagination GEO.

BTW, that RCA - Apple chart I posted only went to 2012 on Apple's stock price. Lets update !! In Oct-Nov 2014 Apple stock MADE the "right-side" of the head and shoulders top, like you talked about!! It went to an "all time" high in Oct-Nov 2014, JUST LIKE RCA did in the 1929, just before RCA crashed. Wow.

Never confuse a company like RCA or Apple "remaining viable" as you said, with losing 90% of your invested money QUICKLY - in a stock's decline. The company may remain viable, but in your lifetime, you usually don't get a second chance. You don't live long enough. 2009-2014 WAS "everyone's" extra-ordinary second chance to recoup, the party is OVER.

GEO, in December 2014 Apple stock feebly did a BEAUTIFUL non-confirmation, while the general market made new highs, and AAPL HAS "rolled over". Apple is best now as a short sale. I shorted GE instead, last Wednesday, and I got it done within 10 minutes of the high for the day.

You GEO, are likely on the wrong side of the Market!

Its going to be absolutely HUGE - this drop. A little more market action and I will know for sure, if its NOW or later. But, proactively by last Wednesday, I personally went "ALL IN" on the short side, 100%. So far, so good !! We should be seeing DOW 7,000 quicker.... than most everyone would suppose !!

Send me your private email address and we can discuss this stuff off Forum!!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 16:12:33
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014



.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 18:42:40
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Let's clear this up once and for all:

(1) "made up Science". Ridiculous. Any good engineer can figure it out-- ALL of it-- easily.

(2) "Passing off as facts". Sorry again! Facts ARE facts. I just pay close attention to FACTS, rather than copy irrelevant "facts" from wrong, but accepted sources.

(3) "Like the way their amps are tuned". Sorry, but these amps ARE NOT tuned. They ARE neutral.

(4) "opposed to it"-- a separate forum. What is the price? Maybe one could afford it, who knows?

(5) "drink from their water cooler". WHAT does this have to do with accurately reproducing music? I know that most forum members care more about an amplifier's musical accuracy than a posted-POLITICAL position. I KNOW they do! Otherwise, why should I post at all?

"The most important skill for Science is noticing the unexpected".

---Dennis---

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 19:07:06
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Once there was Tube Asylum, then there was SET Asylum, then there was DIY Asylum, then there was OTL asylum (which is sponsored in part by Atma-Sphere). I am just suggesting a modern power supply, 3D wiring, or modern construction technique Asylum. I don't understand the resistance. Seems to me that like minds would find that space helpful.

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 19:11:38
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Whatever you say...one would argue that the most important tenant of scientific inquiry is the notion of the "theory" standing up to peer review.


 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 6, 2015 at 19:59:03
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You write :

"Once there was Tube Asylum, then there was SET Asylum, then there was DIY Asylum, then there was OTL asylum"

That is correct GEO, and these Forums still exist today.

But there is NO 'Atmosphere Forum ' - just Atmosphere as a PAID ADVERTISER to AA. My goodness, they have maybe ten retail dealers, are a full time operation, and Ralph was doing this in the 1980s in Minneapolis when I knew and worked with Bob Fulton.

Dennis has NO dealers, we do not count on audio to support ourselves, and I have "volunteered" to help him run a RMAF show here and there, because I have heard his handy craft, think it is extraordinary, and support him as an amateur any way I can.

What he and I are trying to bring to this Forum, is a sense of how to build a better audio amp, starting with a power supply approach that works like gangbusters. No need to scientifically explain it, I certainly can't, but I KNOW what I've heard in amps and speaker listening all of my years, so I KNOW when its right on playback.

There is no marketing involved, that is a smoke screen, a ruse.

BEST of all, Dennis latest amps are WAY better than anything else he has built, so, we can back-up, via listening, and prove the superiority to anyone who is interested. It you wanna dumb-down the audio arts, maybe YOU need to find a different Forum to post on, or a sub forum??

Which leads me to ask an question. What is your position in the audio industry? THAT would be nice to have you fully explain. If lakerfan is buying three SET amps from you, what are your interests here in going after Dennis and I ? Answer that fully for all of us, sir.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 7, 2015 at 04:38:44
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 He bought my Don Allen Amp, my Larry Moore 2A3 and my Burgess 45 / 183. He is a good guy and I have known him for a long time. As for the rest of your post, whatever you say Jeff.

 

RE: Please go away...sponor a sub forum here. , posted on January 8, 2015 at 03:55:58
lakerfan
Audiophile

Posts: 382
Joined: April 9, 2002
 I believe my 10 square uses an 801 as well. Have not put them in yet.

 

RE: you're guessing (as usual), posted on January 8, 2015 at 03:58:02
mach1
Audiophile

Posts: 399
Location: Brisvegas
Joined: April 24, 2005
 Why iss Dennis continually allowed product placement bandwidth here????

 

RE: Another former Erato owner, posted on January 9, 2015 at 14:27:01
Shakey
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Joined: March 1, 2002
 I think I'm going on 11 years with my Epifania and 9 years with my Vitas. Fred has done a few changes. The V Caps and auto-former volume control are a must.

 

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