SET Asylum

Single Ended Triodes (SETs), the ultimate tube lovers dream.

Return to SET Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers

71.0.208.202
Posted on November 28, 2014 at 09:30:48
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005












On the 10 Ohm stock L1 input choke, I went from 22 AWG lead in-out wiring to ( Yellow ) 10 AWG wire, with silver content so as to eliminate the "bad big wire sound" and retain audio bandwidth. That is 16 times more wire. Audible !!

On the Hammond 2A3 filament transformer, I employed 12 AWG wire for the ends ( White ) and 12 AWG for the center tap ( Black ) also, importantly, any large wire needs silver content.

Cathode returns to ground are critical on 2A3 Finals. They need to be short and VERY well wired, as good as you can make it. This is "it" for me, for the moment. You can try it, listen for yourself and see / hear. " An inch of bad wire ".

Getting parts ready for 2A3 DC SE stereo amp build. FUN !!! Greenlee 1 and 1/16th inch chassis punch for Woo Audio teflon UX4 sockets arrived today in the mail. Whoopee.

Jeff Medwin

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Carpet, posted on November 29, 2014 at 08:07:27
Al Noakes
 That carpet is a horrible colour . Did you chose it or was it there when you moved in ?

Al

 

No, Bath Towel. , posted on November 29, 2014 at 15:34:39
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 ..

 

RE: Carpet, posted on December 1, 2014 at 03:38:29
coolhand
Audiophile

Posts: 537
Joined: June 5, 2006
 Congratulations Al !!!
You just received the award for "Most relevant & logical reply of the Year", because when all else fails, logic prevails :^]

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 2, 2014 at 17:31:41
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 Might I ask what you do with all of those inches of bad wire in the choke?, shouldn't you have a choke wired with 10AWG?

....or is this horse cockery?

Maybe try a big resistor that is less then an inch long?

FYI that sticker will introduce high frequency hash, best to remove it and/or replace it with a paper one.

That towel has more DNA on it then Monika Lewinsky's blue dress.

Cheers.


△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 2, 2014 at 19:33:19
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You need to show the cajones to post with your real name, when trying to flame me.

The choke is already ten Ohms DCR, and just the right size for low storage ( under two pounds in weight ). Consider that a fixed part. Now, will heavy wideband wire from the rectifier tube to the L1 choke, and from the L1 choke to the C1 cap, sound better than the 22 AWG wire that Stancor originally used for leads??

Do YOU know what it takes in wire to maintain the full dynamic content of the music, as a transfer-function through the tube amplifier?? Will 22 AWG hack it better or worse than 12 AWG, with high silver content ???

Have you ever A-Bed such things? Maybe you should teach yourself something about this, through practical experiments, using your ears. Tell us all what you discover. I do !!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 2, 2014 at 20:53:25
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Is it in your opinion that the small gauge wire in the choke does not count as small? I'm sure you can understand my not understanding.

Thanks.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 2, 2014 at 21:39:41
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You ask this :

"Is it in your opinion that the small gauge wire in the choke does not count as small? I'm sure you can understand my not understanding."

Answer :

If modding a stock choke, as I am doing here, I would "dismiss" the AWG of the winding, IF it has sufficient HY ( it does, about 500 mHY measured ) for my design's goal and sufficiently low overall DCR ( it does, 10 Ohms DCR which is very good. )

As it happens, this is a VERY good sounding choke. My wiring of the leads makes it suitable more-so for what I want, dynamically speaking, and bandwidth wise. The leads put " meat on de bone" and make the music playback more believable, to my ear. YMMV.

The best I can do on a custom choke build, with large winding wire that does 950 mA., is a 7 Ohm choke, so this stock choke is used when I have them available . ( No longer made, available . )

Hope that helps you.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 04:04:28
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "If modding a stock choke, as I am doing here, I would "dismiss" the AWG of the winding, IF it has sufficient HY ( it does, about 500 mHY measured ) for my design's goal and sufficiently low overall DCR ( it does, 10 Ohms DCR which is very good. )"

But you haven't properly addressed GargOyle's point, which is one that I and others have also raised in the past. You beef up the short lengths of wire emerging from the choke because you consider them to be of inadequate gauge, while happily leaving the vastly greater lengths of the same wire inside the choke untouched, because you can't access them. This means that the percentage effect that your modifications will have is going to be tiny. And yet you claim that your mutilation of the output leads has a dramatic effect. It simply isn't plausible.

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 06:21:10
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You are not thinking very clearly about audio design and the transfer of energy through a system.

An inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience.

Lets say we change the wire on my amp's 10 Ohm DCR L1 choke from 12 AWG silver content to 26 AWG silver content. Do you think bass, dynamic contrasting will change any, or stay the same ?

Lets say we build two amps, one with B+ and grounds wired with 12 AWG, silver content, and the other with 26 AWG silver content. Think they will play the musical experience the same and as well as each other?

How about we do that for the speaker wires, between amp and crossover, or the wiring between the crossover and drivers??

This is almost 2015, does wire type and size matter in audio and audio design ??

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 06:40:11
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "You are not thinking very clearly about audio design and the transfer of energy through a system.
An inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience.
Lets say we change the wire on my amp's 10 Ohm DCR L1 choke from 12 AWG silver content to 26 AWG silver content. Do you think bass, dynamic contrasting will change any, or stay the same ?"

You are, as usual, evading the point. You maintain that you have beefed up the external leads from the choke because "an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience." But the choke itself contains many many yards of equally "bad wire." Why isn't that huge length of bad wire completely obliterating the musical experience? What is so special about the inch or two outside the choke that you can get your hands on?

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 07:00:58
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 No evasion, the 10 Ohm choke is a fixed item, can't be changed. I was clear on that.

You are free to look at things any way you want, and build whatever you want. Myself, and others, have extensively listened to what I describe, and know exactly what it brings to the table, in real terms.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 09:55:41
Al Noakes
 You must be talking about losses in the wire... Silver plated copper wire of 26AWG is 130 ohms per km and 12AWG 6 ohms per km . Massive difference between the two at 1km . At 10cm the 26AWG is 0.013 ohms and the 12AWG 0.0006 ohms . Now compare the DCR of the choke to these figures and work out the comparative losses . Then apply the same to passing 0.5mA anode current of a 12AX7 or the grid of the 12AX7 . Irrelevant really , isn't it ?

ps your hack jobs always look awful !

Al

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 09:57:34
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "No evasion, the 10 Ohm choke is a fixed item, can't be changed. I was clear on that."

But if you are replacing say 2 inches of the "deficient" wire, while leaving say 100 feet of the same deficient wire inside the choke, why should it have anything but the most infinitesimal of effects on anything?

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 15:57:36
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 Have you considered more practical endeavors?, as others have pointed out the insignificance of this experiment.

I would imagine most people are using thicker wire then 26 awg, so I do consider that is a valid reasoning for that length of 12 awg.

You should be trying to make a big air core choke out of thick wire, you might actually squeak a bit more performance out of that then those little chokes you have there.

With any luck you could wind a big doughnut with your designer wire and not have to tack on leads.

I'm not sure how the 12awg would skew traditional air core calculators, but on the other hand it might get you close enough that you could wind it and measure it, then adjust the windings from there.
Even if you have to use a thinner wire then 12awg ,it should still give you the results you desire.

If it can be built,I would imagine it will be pretty big.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 3, 2014 at 20:22:17
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 So the choke you need is around 2500 turns of 4 awg wire spun on a 48" diameter spool by about 18" high.
You can play with the shape a bit to get a slightly different size if you want.

You will have to splice it every 1000 ft, unless you find some bigger rolls. 21,000 feet should do it, giving you 5 ohms @ around 10HY.

It will weigh just north of 2500 lbs so maybe make a coffee table out of it etc.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

A boy and his toy fire truck!, posted on December 4, 2014 at 11:22:25
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 That's all this is. Of course Dr LowMu hears a difference. Just as a boy has similar adventures rescuing burning buildings.

But some people never grow up and face realities.

Hey, if it makes them happy, go for it. Just stop cramming it down our throats as facts.

 

I apologize for butting in, posted on December 4, 2014 at 13:40:40
Ray Moth
Audiophile

Posts: 2784
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Joined: November 10, 2003
 You guys are having such a lovely discussion but I feel the urge to remind you of an explanation that JM has provided in the past, namely, that the wire with which the inductor is wound is fully within the magnetic field of the core but the leads and surrounding wiring are not. No, I don't get it either, but I have no experience of such things so I am unqualified to comment further.

 

RE: I apologize for butting in, posted on December 4, 2014 at 13:57:20
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 Yes, I was waiting for him to bring up the old "wire is in the magnetic field" argument too...

Maybe he has given up on that one (as I think he should!), and now it seems he just resorts to the argument that he leaves the internal wire alone because he can't get at it. Which leaves the question of why replacing two inches of the "inadequate" wire while leaving the other hundred feet or so of it intact is of any use at all. But I fear one cannot expect any science-based argument to be presented from that particular quarter...

Chris

 

RE: I apologize for butting in, posted on December 4, 2014 at 19:39:13
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 I was part of a group buy from Electraprint a number of years ago and I bought two pairs of the groups' 3.8K primary transformers. One pair is set up like a normal transformer with lead-outs added on and the other pair have the magnet wire coming out directly from the windings. This pair were the prototype and apparently the only difference between them was the lead outs. The DCR is very close on all four transformers.
I still have both pairs but only made an amp with one set (300B SE). I think it would be educational to compare the two varieties and hear what if any difference the lead outs in identical transformers actually makes.
I'm sure I could rig something up to make them switchable in the same amp and get a better idea if there is a subjective difference.
Unfortunately, I sold my Altec 604-8G's last month so the comparison would be with a pair of Altec Model 19 instead. That might be an issue for JM but shouldn't be a show stopper.

 

Why waste the time?, posted on December 4, 2014 at 22:09:35
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 There is more than enough well proven theory and practice over the past 100 years which proves there will be no audible difference.

What's the point of running through all this again. Why not focus your efforts on improving the performance by applying modern components and theory.

Do you honestly believe it took 100 years and a person with no background in electrical engineering to discover a 1amp rated choke requires 10awg leads?

Seriously!

 

Relax, posted on December 5, 2014 at 05:15:25
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 If I have the time and already have the parts on hand, why do you care?

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 08:08:44
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 No doubt science has made advances in the last 100 years, so why do we build amps with 1920's technology to listen to our music?

Because it sounds better?

Is there scientific proof that it does?

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 08:09:59
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Is there scientific proof that it does?"

Yes.

Here's the short version;

"Norman Crowhurst wrote a fascinating analysis of feedback multiplying the order of harmonics, which has been reprinted in "Glass Audio," Vol 7-6, pp. 20 through 30. He starts with one tube generating only 2nd harmonic, adds a second tube in series (resulting in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th), and then makes the whole thing push-pull (resulting in 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), and last but not least, adds feedback to the circuit, which creates a series of harmonics out to the 81st. All of this complexity from "ideal" tubes that only create 2nd harmonic!"

A single ended amp using a direct heated power triode with no feedback produces very little upper ordered HD. Upper ordered HD is what the human ear objects to.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 09:19:29
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 A SET amp or PP tube amp does indeed sound different than a modern solid state amp. Some people like that. It's also an awarding hobby to built vintage technology.

But a small power supply choke with generic 22awg leads sounds no different than the same butchered up with 10awg leads. So why bother.

An a part of building vintage technology is to preserve the find hand workmanship of that era. Looking into a replica amp and seeing transformers butchered up with gaffers tape and tyraps to no technical advantage insults this art.

And if education or adventure is ones goal, there is plenty of material on legitimate circuit modifications and topologies you can try. Why waste time on these silly tweaks that do nothing. Why not put that energy towards something that reaps rewards.

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 09:30:33
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
 Just to play the devil's advocate, how about designs like Doug Self's Blameless amplifier, which literally has almost no measureable distortion, and more or less ideal square wave response?

I appreciate that a perceptible amount of higher order harmonic distortion is going to be worse than a perceptible amount of lower order harmonic distortion, that point is proved beyond any doubt, and is not the subject of any argument.

However I would propose that when you compare an SET amplifier, with a THD in the 5% range to a solid state amplifier which has 1000 times less distortion, what really will explain the difference in perceived sound quality of the SET is the *presence* of distortion, not the absence of it. The higher order harmonics in the solid state amplifier may be present, but they are well below the noise floor of the SET amplifier.

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 11:13:36
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "However I would propose that when you compare an SET amplifier, with a THD in the 5% range to a solid state amplifier which has 1000 times less distortion, what really will explain the difference in perceived sound quality of the SET is the *presence* of distortion, not the absence of it. The higher order harmonics in the solid state amplifier may be present, but they are well below the noise floor of the SET amplifier."

I agree with you. And in any case, in its path from the microphones in the recording studio to the output of the home CD player, the audio signal will have gone through many stages of amplification using colossal amounts of negative feedback (not to mention huge lengths of "bad wire that can ruin the musical experience"!).

If a SET amplifier in the home stereo system really makes a big difference to the sound, it must be be because of distortion effects that it injects into the signal. The difference could not simply be explained on the basis that it was not injecting NFB-induced distortion products, given that the signal will already have been through so many previous steps using huge NFB.

Chris

 

RE: Why waste the time?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 13:15:44
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 +1
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 5, 2014 at 13:17:45
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 Not to mention the resistance added by the additional solder connection (those aren't pure conductors).
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: Relax, posted on December 5, 2014 at 14:23:46
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Caution Kyle,

No telling how good the stock lead out wire is !!!!! Have fun. The trannies have to break in 200 hours.

I've done this on Hammond Ef XFRs to DHTs starting back in 2007 as I recall.

I "giggle" when these guys are so wrong. The bigger the EE degree, the worse the mind is open to new possibilities. Sad, sad. NONE of them would think to simply try it out and find out for themselves...ohhh no !!

Jeff Medwin

 

Why is the EE closed minded?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 14:48:56
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 That makes no sense at all if you stop to consider that statement.

The EE has at least a four year education past high school. True EE programs vs the newer ET programs still require substantial credits in liberal arts. History, philosophy, language - just check and university degree outline.

On the strict technical side, the EE has studied many engineering theories, not just electrical but basic engineering principles that cover all engineering disciplines. Did you ever look at the study guide of a PE test? The FE exam (the first step) is universal for any PE license, the same for electrical, mechanical, civil. That's because true engineering has common ties within mathematics.

Any engineering curriculum requires work. It's not some degree program you can just BS through like a degree in "fine arts".

Now how is that "closed minded"?

Let's look at the weekend hobbyist such as you who refuses to acknowledge proven and tested theories. Eschews any attempt to test and qualify claims they make. States things like audio is extreme bandwidth which no modern test equipment can measure.

Now that sounds very "closed minded" in my book!

 

A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 5, 2014 at 15:33:27
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Chris,

The link is the best little anecdote I've read about a smidge of second harmonic distortion in with your music.

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 5, 2014 at 16:28:48
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "The link is the best little anecdote I've read about a smidge of second harmonic distortion in with your music."

Well, I don't have any problem with the claim that people, or at least some people, may find some added harmonic distortion to have a pleasing sound. That is really a psycho-acoustical question. It is essentially saying that they find the sound is better if it is put through a sort of "sound effects box." This is perfectly believable.

However, it is not the case that the distorting amplifier is restoring or recovering harmonics that were lost in the recording process. It is introducing some new sound effects that were not present in the original. And it is also introducing new kinds of distortion that were not present at all in the original concert-hall performance. For example, the harmonics that Benny Kim's Stradivarius produce do not result, in the concert hall, in intermodulation distortions amongst the sounds from all the other instruments that are playing. But the distorting amplifier, even if it is only contributing second-order distortion, is going to generate lots of intermodulation distortion products amongst all the sounds that it is reproducing.

Also, I didn't see any explanation in that little story about why the recording process was supposed to be preferentially suppressing the harmonics in the Stradivarius, while preserving the fundamental. However, the article claimed that "what we lose are subtle harmonics." I don't think there are "subtle harmonics" and "non-subtle harmonics." There is just an audio signal that can be decomposed in a Fourier analysis into a spectral distribution of frequencies.

In any case, if any "subtle harmonics" really are lost in the recording process, then they are lost. Period. Running the signal through a distorting amplifier is not going to succeed in subtlely restoring them again.

Chris

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 5, 2014 at 16:39:21
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 It was just an interesting little story. I don't like "effects boxes." And I think the old research said the human ear couldn't pick out 4% added second harmonic distortion, so I think it's a bit of a red herring. I think well designed SET amps can be held to 4% second harmonic distortion.

Jamie




Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

+1 (nt), posted on December 5, 2014 at 17:13:00
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Why is the EE closed minded?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 21:19:37
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
Unfortunately I have to take Jeff's side on this one. I did engineering and engineering related work for 27 years and while I have moved on to another field, it doesn't mean I don't remember the practical aspects.
My experience taught me that just because a person has the education and has worked in a capacity for a period of time doesn't make him the equal of all in that area of expertise. Engineers are like anyone else, there are great ones and sh*tty ones. More sh*tty than great in my experience.
I worked with a lot of engineers over the years that weren't worth a damn in practical matters. They could spout off endless calculations and what their profs told them were best practices but when it came down to the actual project decisions they were at a loss. This is in industries as diverse as robotics, aircraft design, underground mining vehicles and refineries. There is just no substitute for experience and if you think that's not the case, you're likely a pencil pushing desk jockey with no real practical experience.
So, bottom line, while I disagree with Jeff most of the time I also appreciate his 30 plus years of actually making amplifiers. Lots of them. I read about his projects in Sound Practices in the 90's and they weren't my style then or now but I give credit where it's due. He's done the real work to have an opinion and I'll support his right to have that opinion.
I certainly think that many posters here haven't got the hours in with a soldering iron to challenge what he thinks he hears and are just reciting Crowhurst or Jones or whoever they relate to. While I'm a bit short of Jeff's hours, I have made a large number of amps and preamps of a wide variety of designs and not all of them sucked. Many of them would be ridiculed by the so called experts here because I didn't follow your idol's path. I'm good with that. You should be too.

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 5, 2014 at 21:40:05
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 I wouldn't advocate adding distortion but the best measuring amp is not always the best sounding one.

 

RE: Why is the EE closed minded?, posted on December 5, 2014 at 22:41:02
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "I certainly think that many posters here haven't got the hours in with a soldering iron to challenge what he thinks he hears..."

That is the problem. I'm sure he sincerely thinks he hears the effects of his choke mutilations. Just like the people on the Tweaker's Forum sincerely think they hear the effects of the crystals in the room, or the flashings LEDs, or the quantum fuses. It is all delusional.

Chris

 

RE: Why is the EE closed minded?, posted on December 6, 2014 at 06:58:15
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Esse Est Percepi.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:01:19
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014



I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but...

IMH and unlearned opinion a lot of it comes down to side-harmonics. Class AB amps somehow self-cancel the side harmonics, and thereby reduce the amount of musical information the ear/brain receives. They sure sound like they do. I believe class A amplifiers allow more of the input signal to be reproduced by the speakers, and the ear/brain is able to hear this, discern it, and add it to our muscial enjoyment.

I think a good analogy is MP3 vs WAV. The side-harmonics is exactly what the MP3 guts out of the music. Just throws it away. Anybody who isn't deaf can hear a WAV file sounds better than an MP3.

What I took away from the story was; The violinist thought his Stradavarious sounded more like a real violin on a SET amp, although it still didn't sound like a Stradavarious. Sometimes in life we just have to get by the best we can.

Jamie



Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:25:48
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 No, LMAO, I am certainly NOT just talking about copper losses in wire Al.

In B+ wiring, and ground wiring, the whole orchestra and choir and organs and harps have to traverse that wire path and maintain the band width and the fullest dynamic range, both of which are UNLIMITED in real music.

Think in terms of MUSIC, not wire losses.


Jeff Medwin

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:47:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "The violinist thought his Stradavarious sounded more like a real violin on a SET amp, although it still didn't sound like a Stradavarious. "

Where, in the story below, does it say the Benny listened to a recording of his violin? It doesn't, it said the police had him listen to his violin. We have to assume the police had a different violin player come down to the police station and play different violins, including Benny's and Benny, even though he was blindfolded, picked his violin.

*The police after finding the Stradivarius violin back wants to be sure that it really is the correct violin of Benny Kim, so they blindfold him and make him listen to a number of different violins at the police station, can he recognise his violin ?
Probably yes, for a trained ear it should be easy, but Benny is sitting in a police office and is under stress and not in his familiar surroundings (conservatorium or practising room ) and still he probably manages to recognise his violin.*

"IMH and unlearned opinion a lot of it comes down to side-harmonics. Class AB amps somehow self-cancel the side harmonics, and thereby reduce the amount of musical information the ear/brain receives."

By "Class AB amps" I am assuming you mean push pull amplifiers running in Class AB?

A push pull amplifier will cancel even ordered harmonics that are created in the push pull part of the circuit. Even ordered harmonics that are part of the input signal, as well as anything else that is part of the input signal, are not canceled by the push pull circuit, just the even ordered harmonic distortion that is created by the push pull circuit itself.

"I think a good analogy is MP3 vs WAV. The side-harmonics is exactly what the MP3 guts out of the music. Just throws it away. Anybody who isn't deaf can hear a WAV file sounds better than an MP3."

I agree with the last sentence but the parts of the music that are intentionally thrown away as part of the process of making a MP3 has nothing to do with push pull circuits and the canceling of even ordered harmonic distortion. Not even close, so it's not a good analogy at all.

Tre'



Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 07:54:31
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 "A push pull amplifier will cancel even ordered harmonics that are created in the push pull part of the circuit. Even ordered harmonics that are part of the input signal, as well as anything else that is part of the input signal, are not canceled by the push pull circuit, just the even ordered harmonic distortion that is created by the push pull circuit itself."

That's what they say. I'm not so convinced. You may be. There seems to be something going on with PP amps that don't meet the ear. I have a feeling our ability to really test what is going on is rather more limited than some people imagine.

Carry on.

Jamie



Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 08:23:47
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 377
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 Jamie, I remember reading an article in Stereo Review where one of the editors decided to learn how much distortion could be heard in 'real world' listening to music. He got some of his 'golden ear' buddies together for a listening test with a home system. I don't remember all the particulars, but what stuck with me was the conclusion. All of these expert listeners couldn't hear distortion until it was well within single digit and/or double digit distortion. I haven't thought twice about measured distortion since. I started looking at things differently and ran across an obscure company named Electronic Tonalities.

If second order distortion has me listening to music for hours and wanting more. as apposed to a clean amp that has me fatigued after an hour or so, I'm all for the distortion.

How's that amp build coming along?

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:05:32
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "There seems to be something going on with PP amps that don't meet the ear."

Yes, I explained that in my first post.

Push pull creates odd ordered (the very kind of distortion that humans find objectionable) harmonic distortion.

Did you read the linked Lynn Olson page?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: A Story of Harmonics, posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:13:08
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 "Push pull creates even ordered (the very kind of distortion that humans find objectionable) harmonic distortion."

No it doesn't. I produces higher odd order harmonics. So you are wrong Tre' How about that?

I have read all the Lynn Olson I could get my hands on many times.

Now I want you to say you are wrong. Even if you explain it as a misprint. LOL

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

I Must agree, somewhat., posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:17:46
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I know exactly the class of engineer you are referring to. Bookworms that can recite the most complex formulas but can't solder on a RCA connector. Then there are just plain incompetent engineers that can't do the theory or practical right.

Then we also have the non degreed engineers that can run rings around the group. I know many of these types too and they are all very successful.

Myself, I am hardly an engineering scholar, I am not a born student at all. But I have been building electronic projects since I was about 9 years old, that would be 1969. I built a B&W TV camera from raw parts in my junior high school year when I was given an old vidicon tube. I made it color in my senior year when I got another one tube and deflection coil and with the help of the defunct Edmund Scientific made a red/cyan optical system.

But after entering Drexel in the late 70s, and that camera project got me in by the way, not my pitiful SATs, I soon learned how it worked in great detail and why many things I "TRIED" did not. At 54 years old I have built thousands of personal projects as well and many commercial projects and products in the broadcast television industry.

So you can see I for one am not impressed with JM's meger project history. For all that time he has advanced very little in understanding how this stuff works. And for him to insult the the industry professionals as a whole is what labels him an idiot!

 

Odd, typo, sorry., posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:45:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 You will find that when I'm wrong about something I have no problem admitting it.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Odd, typo, sorry., posted on December 6, 2014 at 09:56:21
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 "You will find that when I'm wrong about something I have no problem admitting it."

You didn't admit you were wrong in this case. You explained it. You said you were sorry, but you didn't admit you were wrong.

I have learned quickly on this forum that a typo, or simple mistatement can have the Accuracy Gestapo on you in a heartbeat. I won't report you to them.

Jamie



Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Odd, typo, sorry., posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:36:44
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "I won't report you to them."

Thanks Man! :-)

And no, I didn't admit that I was wrong. In this case, I just mis-typed.

But when I'm proven wrong, and that has happened many times, I do admit it.

I'm not near as stubborn as it may seem.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Odd, typo, sorry., posted on December 6, 2014 at 10:41:29
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 "Thanks Man! :-)"

No Problem! ;)

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 6, 2014 at 16:44:50
Al Noakes
 Then how does the orchestra TRAVERSE the wire inside the choke ? Remember the coil of wire inside a choke , by it's very nature , has a transfer function similar to the effect that rifling in a gun barrel has on a bullet . This makes the TRANSFERRED electrons spin introducing timing errors into the musical signal . Therefore it is important to have the turns on your 2A3 filament transformer wound the other direction so there is cancellation of spin leaving the dynamic presentation of the musical signal intact . This makes sense to me but what about you ? Have you applied this to your amplifiers and heard the benefits ? I thought you were able to think out of the box and would have REALISED this already ? I am so disapointed in you...

Al

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 07:44:47
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Hi Al,

Spinning of electrons...pulling my leg. Obfuscating the good modification work being done !!!

Don't get disapointed, I have been doing custom small mass chokes since 2007, and I have been making balanced DHT filament transformers since 2008, as soon as I realized it was a loss area in SE amps. After all, in SE the whole supply is in the path of the audio.

Back to the question: Is a 22 AWG wire suitable for transfer of B+, all the B+, in a L1 position in the amp, or, would a 12 AWG lead, with silver content, do the music more justice? Can the 22 AWG wire play back without loss of either band width, or dynamic contrasting as in the original musical event, the 108 piece Orchestra, and Organ, and 250 piece choir, all "going" at once???

Or, will the 22 AWG wire in the SE amp B+ runs cause the playback to sound "whimpy, frequency selective, out-of-time, dynamically constricted, etc" ??

BTW, I have modified my L1 chokes to use 12 AWG lead in and lead out wiring, rather than the 10 AWG I first posted. Dealer's choice there.

If you guys can't conceive what I am designing for, I can't really help you, or spoon-feed you any more than I have. Continue on in your merrie ways building amps, who knows, maybe our amps will meet in a direct A-B session ....one day in the future !!

Jeff Medwin






























































































































































































































































































































 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 07:54:24
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Would you run your woofers on 22 AWG lead-in wire Bill ??

( I don't, I use the equivalent of 9 AWG , with silver content. )

Do wire choices matter in audio?

Is this 1901, or 2014 ???

:-)

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 08:23:24
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Back to the question: Is a 22 AWG wire suitable for transfer of B+, all the B+, in a L1 position in the amp, or, would a 12 AWG lead, with silver content, do the music more justice? Can the 22 AWG wire play back without loss of either band width, or dynamic contrasting as in the original musical event, the 108 piece Orchestra, and Organ, and 250 piece choir, all "going" at once???"

Two points:

1) The audio signal does not, thankfully, have to pass through the choke. It is running almost entirely through the final smoothing capacitor in the power supply.

2) The result of your choke mutilations is that instead of running the B+ through, say, 100 feet of 22 AWG wire, it is running instead through 99 feet and 8 inches of 22 AWG wire. The change is totally inconsequential.

There are so many much more worthwhile things to experiment with in audio amplifier design. To be fixated on such trifling absurdities seems like such a waste.

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:07:31
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 I suppose the issue is this.
Most have experienced good results by going to a larger gauge wire in some application, an example being, people tinkering with car audio are well served using large gauge wire. It is needed to pass the low voltage high current to the amp, then high wattage current to the subs etc.

It is also practice, (not just in this field) to use smaller gauged wires to pass higher voltages. In North American households 120V @~2000 watts is passed through 14 gauge solid wire.

These amplifiers draw a fraction of what the power circuits can provide.
So it stands to reason that 22AWG is suitable to pass 400+ volts at some milliamps,as the wattage is very low in comparison.

It is not clear the benefit of using such think wire when there is no evidence that the 22awg is insufficient for the voltage and current in that location in the amplifier.

Comparing it to speaker wire is not really applicable, as the voltage is stepped down after the OPT and in that case it stands to reason that the wire be a little bigger then the high voltage-low amp stage.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

To Be or Not to Be........ ......., posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:34:40
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Hi Chris,

Nice post.

I challenge your statement of lead replacement being inconsequential.

Myself, and two other mature, experienced audiophiles, have replaced thin choke leads and easily heard a better music presentation. Should we three people just DENY what we heard, and accept your "theory", OR, should we put credence in what we hear, the end result, and respectfully suggest to you, and others, your theory is not complete ??

We have actually done this "silly" work, and listened to the results. How much attention should I pay to you, who has never tried and has zero practical experience in this very specific area? Could you be wrong in your theory, could it be incomplete, by any chance ?

Sincerely,

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: To Be or Not to Be........ ......., posted on December 7, 2014 at 09:53:10
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Myself, and two other mature, experienced audiophiles, have replaced thin choke leads and easily heard a better music presentation. Should we three people just DENY what we heard, and accept your "theory", OR, should we put credence in what we hear, the end result, and respectfully suggest to you, and others, your theory is not complete ??"

I would be willing to bet $100 that in a properly conducted double-blind test, you would be unable to demonstrate any statistically-meaningful ability to discriminate between the sound of the original and the modified choke.

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:14:50
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
One thing to consider is this: while amplifiers DRAW small currents, they are, after all, really pulsed devices.

And that's when large, high quality wire and close-coupled "bird's nest" wiring makes a whopping difference-- when the leading edge of a pulse hits all of the components in the amp.

The question is then-- what does it do with the pulse when the existing wiring and parts are already drawing current. Where does the pulse have room to go?

Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?

Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music.

Now, if that hallway was made 50 feet wide instead of 10 feet, NO problem, the snake, meal and all, can still negotiate it!

---Dennis---



 

RE: To Be or Not to Be........ ......., posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:38:05
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 I would be interested in seeing a couple of scope shots or some sort of distortion analysis of 22awg vs 10awg on both ends of the wire that would show some difference in application.

I don't think it is possible to hear a DC voltage drop of 0.00042% in the 22AWG vs the 0.000027% in the 10AWG. EDIT: (Based on 12" lengths, 450V, 60mA)

The 10AWG does have more zeros after the decimal, I will give him that. :p


△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:39:29
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?

Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music.

Now, if that hallway was made 50 feet wide instead of 10 feet, NO problem, the snake, meal and all, can still negotiate it!"

Yes, but if the "hallway" (drlowmu's choke output leads) is followed by a very long corridor (the rest of the wire in the choke), then it doesn't matter whether the fattened-up snake can get through the 50 ft hallway or not, if the rest of the corridor it needs to go down is still only 10 ft wide.

The analogy, in any case, is not a very close one, and is not worth pursuing. But the underlying question remains: Why should it make any significant difference at all to replace four inches of the hundred feet of 22 AWG wire in the choke by 12 gauge silver wire? The other 99 feet 8 inches are still the same old 22 AWG wire that is claimed by drlowmu to be too thin.

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 10:43:22
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
 > And that's when large, high quality wire and close-coupled
> "bird's nest" wiring makes a whopping difference-- when the
> leading edge of a pulse hits all of the components in the amp.

> The question is then-- what does it do with the pulse when the
> existing wiring and parts are already drawing current. Where
> does the pulse have room to go?

Doesn't have anything in common with engineering.
Correlation between electric current and some kind of water pipe is meaningless to say at least.

Minimum thickness of wire is calculated upon allowed voltage drop and temperature rise.

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 7, 2014 at 11:09:37
Al Noakes
 If those abortions are what your company is all about , I think you may hit the wall sometime soon... I have no issues about 22AWG wire , in fact I extensively use and recommend 23AWG 1/0.6 silver plated copper in Teflon for all signal and HT wiring . It's nice to use and the insulation doesn't shrink back or burn . It's most certainly thicker than whats in your transformers , chokes and output transformers , not forgetting 'Fraker' filters . The orchestra gets through easily , as for bandwidth , this is easily quantifiable , but you never provides figures so you only have anecdotal evidence .

There is a reason that manufacturers don't use your logic , it's because you are a crackpot ;)

Do you also apply silly wire to heater connections ?

Al

 

RE: Why is the EE closed minded?, posted on December 7, 2014 at 17:16:31
Ray Moth
Audiophile

Posts: 2784
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Joined: November 10, 2003
 Jeff, there is no doubt you have many years of building experience which few others can legitimately challenge. If one of us wanted something built and could afford to pay an expert to do it, I'm sure you would be a safe bet (provided that you were prepared to undertake the work). Some EEs, professionally qualified or otherwise, would not have the skills, experience, enthusiasm or understanding to be able to match your ability. You have also often given generous assistance to others and helped them achieve what they aimed for.

However, there are many EEs in this forum, both formally qualified and otherwise, who do understand what is going on -- because of their education, training and experience, not in spite of it -- and are very well able to contribute far more than most here. These members of AA, some of whom you know, deserve our credit and respect. They are far from being closed-minded and to dismiss them with such silly phrases is unprofessional, unfair and just plain wrong.

 

Music has unlimited dynamic range?, posted on December 8, 2014 at 10:18:00
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Really, and our 15psi sea level atmosphere has no influence on that?

But it's a moot point anyway.

Even if music did have an unlimited dynamic range or frequency response, the recording chain certainly does not. An analog system has a defined headroom, that being the rail voltage. Hit that and you clip. Digital has an equally hard ceiling. Hit +/- 7FFFh for 16 bit and you are clipped just as hard. Similar restrictions apply to frequency response as well, especially with digital recording technologies.

So how is your magic wiring removing these limits in the recording?

 

Stupid analogy!, posted on December 8, 2014 at 10:21:00
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I wouldn't wire the power supply of a 200w solid state amp with 22awg wire either. I would probably use at least 16ga.

Obviously based on your post here, you don't even understand the most basic of electrical theory - that is Ohm's law.

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 10:58:22
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Dennis, please understand that the "40 foot diameter morsel" can be no bigger than twice the idle current.

If your driver tube is idling at .6ma, the most it will ever draw (and stay linear) is 1.2ma (keep in mind that a waveform that causes the idle current to double will also cause the tube to reach cutoff)

If your output tube is idling at 43ma, the most it will ever draw (and stay linear) is 86ma. (keep in mind that a waveform that causes the idle current to double will also cause the tube to reach cutoff)

Those are not large pulses that require huge wire. You've just made this stuff up in your mind, it has no basis in reality.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 11:43:55
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Very nice, logical and correct.

But, to no avail.

Try this: Take any cathode resistor. Let's say, for example, it's a ten-watter at 12K.

Now, purchase TWO 5-watters, each at 24K.

Parallel them-- you'll have to match them within about 1/10% or the experiment won't deliver.

The value and the watt ratings are now the same (the single 12K, and the NEW 12K-- made from TWO 24K).

They will sound VERY different even if you use the same brand, etc.

What you're dealing with here isn't anything we have calculations for. You're dealing with the pulse behavior of materials, not so much their values.

Wire is no different.

---Dennis---



 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 12:13:35
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 I would be willing to bet another $100 that you wouldn't be able to demonstrate any statistically significant ability to discriminate between the 12K vs the two 24K cathode resistors, in a properly-conducted double-blind listening experiment.

Chris

 

RE: To Be or Not to Be........ ......., posted on December 8, 2014 at 12:18:38
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You should not assume a scope or any distortion analyzer in your laboratory can capture the event.

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 12:25:43
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17296
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 You said "Think of the "draw" current as a one-foot diameter snake going down thru a 10 foot wide hallway. No problem! No?

Then, the snake swallows a nice, juicy 40 foot diameter morsel. That is our pulse-- as in amplifiers and music."

That pulse is a current increase. That current increase does not ever get bigger than twice the idle current. If it does get bigger than that the whole gig is up because you are no longer operating the amplifier in a linear manor so who cares? In your amplifier, that you rate at 1 watt, the current increase will be even smaller.

So whatever you are saying about "the pulse behavior of materials" are only important to a current value of no more than twice the idle current not some huge current "pulse" that you are imagining.

On a different note,

Dennis, will you ever finish this discussion?

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/7/77021.html

You said;

"You won't get more "oomph" from any 2A3 by running more than 45 ma. It doesn't work that way. *When the tube is not run as hard (as the standard 60 ma.), it can stand far more input swing without distorting*."

Speaking only about the part between the **, I say that you are dead wrong.

When we got to this point in our conversation you just stopped.

Why? Is it because you don't have an answer?

It's very rude to just stop in the middle of a conversation Dennis.

If you decrease the idle current, without increasing the plate voltage and increasing the load impedance (as you have done in your design), the tube will reach clipping (distortion) SOONER, not later.

[ What I'm saying here is that you lowered the idle current and you didn't increase the voltage or the load impedance]

I can prove this to you but all you have to do is look at a load line on a set of plate curves and you will see for yourself that as the idle current is lowered (without changing anything else) the right side of the load line dips into the non-linear region (and cutoff) sooner, not later.

Please correct this mis-information that you posted.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 12:30:06
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 So Far,

You owe me $200 Chris !!!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 12:40:34
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 You ask :

"Why should it make any significant difference at all to replace four inches of the hundred feet of 22 AWG wire in the choke by 12 gauge silver wire? The other 99 feet 8 inches are still the same old 22 AWG wire that is claimed by drlowmu to be too thin."

(1) You have no control over the 99 feet eight inches, its IN the magnetic flux, in the choke, doing its thing.

(2) For the four inches outside of the magnetic flux, you HAVE control, and remember my audio lesson number ONE Chis...


" an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience".


I learned that audio lesson YEARS ago, when are YOU going to wake up and smell 'de roses dude ??

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 13:04:59
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "You have no control over the 99 feet eight inches, its IN the magnetic flux, in the choke, doing its thing."

There seem to be two possible interpretations of what you are claiming:

a) Yes, it is 99 feet 8 inches of crappy wire, but since you can't do anything about it you will just live with it. In which case, this raises the question as to why it is worth bothering with improving a 4 inch length of the crappy wire, when the overwhelming majority of the crappy wire remains. The percentage effect of such an "improvement" would be negligible.

OR

b) Perhaps you are claiming that the crappy wire ceases to be crappy when it is in a magnetic field. All its previous "inability to keep pace with the timing of the music," or whatever, is miraculously cured by immersing it in a magnetic field. If this is what you are claiming, then perhaps you could give some references to literature where these kinds of phenomena are documented?

Chris

 

And your electro-mechanical speaker can?, posted on December 8, 2014 at 14:45:53
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Silliness!

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 15:42:28
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "So Far,

You owe me $200 Chris !!!

Jeff Medwin"

That's odd...I had made my second $100 bet offer to "Tube Wrangler." I had always, perhaps naively, assumed that "Tube Wrangler" and "drlowmu" were two different people. Are you saying they are actually one and the same? That might explain a thing or two! :)

Chris

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 15:56:55
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, why do multiple persons, respectable audiophile builders, who have done this report it sounds better to them?


Could you be overlooking a simple way to improve audio performance, due solely to your very closed mind set ?

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing stock chokes and DHT filament transformers, posted on December 8, 2014 at 16:25:23
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
 "The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, why do multiple persons, respectable audiophile builders, who have done this report it sounds better to them?"

Multiple persons on the Tweakers' Forum report that the sound is better when they put crystals in the room, or sprinkle magic dust, or whatever. It proves nothing, except that people are capable of imagining things that are not real.

Chris

 

Mr. Nokes, posted on December 10, 2014 at 18:50:53
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1465
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
 The carpet looks very clean to me. So.......

 

Ears - Brain fully developed, posted on December 14, 2014 at 12:14:33
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 Our ears - brain can !!! Not silly at all.

Jeff

 

Page processed in 0.053 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]