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Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer

71.0.208.202

Posted on November 25, 2014 at 20:45:05
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



Tonight I did it !! I replaced power transformer leads, ( all but three Green filament leads ) in my upcoming stereo 2A3 amp's power transformer, with " to the max" lead wiring.

Used high quality 10 AWG on the three Grey primary wires, and 10 AWG Yellow on the center tap lead of the 5 VCT rectifier tube ( the amp's B+ feed with a directly heated rectifier ) and 10 AWG Blue on the center tap lead of the approximately 800 VCT high voltage secondary.

The "end-to-end" leads of the B+ windings ( high voltage secondary and rectifier winding ) is 12 AWG. quality wire, twisted White in color, as we can plainly see.

This transformer is low DCR. Has an under one ohm Primary winding DCR and a under 10 Ohms secondary DCR, end-to-center tap. It will boggie with the best of them. Unit weighs 18 pounds.

Enlightened audiophiles regularly use 10 AWG special power cords to their amps, and report audible improvements. How about using ten AWG for all the 120 VAC wiring inside the chassis, Fuse, On - Off switches, right into the windings of the power transformer? Did so !!!

This will be my best-wired power transformer to date. It is going into a re-do of the 2A3 stereo amp I once posted here, where I get to apply new parts, and new understanding to my build. 'Will post - as I proceed. This was just tonight's work.

Cheers, and always remember this, an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience.

Jeff Medwin

 

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let me save everyone the time, posted on November 26, 2014 at 05:54:59
elblanco
Audiophile

Posts: 3486
Joined: August 20, 2004
"One inch of bad wire can......."

"Prove it......"

"Use your ears......"

"My ears love distortion........"

"Fulton, blah, blah,blah.....Fraker,blah,blah,blah"

"This is esoterica, known only to the initiated"

"Show me the math and measurements"

"I can't, its all in my head"

"Buy an amp from serious stereo, PLEASE"

 

Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 06:35:10
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Elblanco,

You certainly are confused and misdirected.

This is MY personal-use power transformer, one I designed as to specifications and had wound for me, to be used on MY new stereo 2A3 amp. No wheres in the thread do I mention Serious Stereo, and this thread has ZERO to do with anyone buying my friend's commercial gear !!

"One inch of bad wire can......."

"Prove it......"

Prove it to yourself. Take a stock Eico HF80 receiver. It has a 5/8ths to 3/4 inch length of bell wire lead across the amplifier section's input tube, as a direct couple from the plate of the input tube to the phase splitter's triode grid, the other half of a 12AX7.

Replace that 5/8ths of bell wire with a short length of very high quality wire. Why not TWO Kimber Kable AGSS, or some 13 AWG Siltech. Listen to that and you will understand what I am talking about. Right now, you don't have a clue. Prove it to yourself, for yourself, I already have, years ago.

"Use your ears......"

"My ears love distortion........"

Our ears are the very best measuring device we have in audio, the measuring device that counts the most.

Designing for "lowest distortion" is a misnomer, and only PART of the design process. Want lowest distortion, buy a solid state receiver with lotsa feedback. Our ears know when its right.

"Fulton, blah, blah,blah.....Fraker,blah,blah,blah"

"This is esoterica, known only to the initiated"

That is your problem, certainly not mine.

"Show me the math and measurements"

"I can't, its all in my head"

100 years of math and measurement failed, on its OWN, to produce a really great sounding tube amp. Its not in my head, but on either side of it, my ears ( and your ears ) IF you were to take the effort to listen. Many good people on this Forum and in audio do listen and listen well !!!

"Buy an amp from serious stereo, PLEASE"

Hogwash. You likely can't afford the gear, and so can't I. No wheres have I mentioned Serious Stereo in my post above. Nor is there an inference, except in your mind. Again, its MY power transformer re-do and MY amp I was discussing. If you have a problem with what I do, or what I post about, sorry... you don't have to read it.

Your sad flame attempt has little to do with the subject at hand. Cease and desist please. Thank you.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 06:37:18
What gauge is the wire inside the fuse ? What gauge of wire is used inside the transformer ? What gauge is the wire inside your tubes ? What difference does a tiny fraction of an ohm make ?

ps Why didn't you use black wire ?

Al

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 06:50:49
Stuben
Audiophile

Posts: 669
Location: Guber Ohio
Joined: December 30, 2005
Jeff,

There are definite advantages to ensure the lowest impedance possible in your secondaries. I like Power trannys with multiple secondary windings that enable you to parallel to reduce impedance. This assumes that you can parallel and still accommodate secondary voltage and current requirements. I like to spec my chokes out with at least twice the current capability required to ensure a low DCR power supply....

I have heard the sonic advantages of lowest possible PS impedance but I still accommodate critical inductance so I'm typically seeing around 50 to 60 DCR in my chokes.

I assume that when you use these low DCR chokes, you are not working with a choke input supply. How much capacitance you using? You are limited on the first cap by the rectifier requirements.

Keep building...have fun

Stuben

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 06:58:40
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Hiah Al,

Lets do it one by one :

What gauge is the wire inside the fuse ?

A: Very small.

All of Jeff's most recent personally-built DIY amps use TWO AC switches, The second AC switch is a fuse and / or thermistor "bypass" or short-out switch, so I don't need to have them in the circuit when I am in the room with my amps, and I am doing serious listening.

What gauge is the wire inside the fuse ?

A: See above.

What gauge of wire is used inside the transformer ?

A: Lowest gauge possible.

Its an large core 18 pound device. It sports an under 9 Ohm "ultra hi fi DCR " high voltage winding secondary, from either end of the winding to the center tap. The 125 VAC primary, the entire winding, is "about" half of one Ohm. The wire I use is 950 mA. continuous capable, what is yours ??

What gauge is the wire inside your tubes ? What difference does a tiny fraction of an ohm make ?

A. The tube design is fixed, we work with it as thoughtfully as we can.

ps Why didn't you use black wire ?


A: With the new wire, having a low AWG rating, high silver content, and wide bandwidth, its likely good enough performance wise to use black insulation colors, and be better than anything else " I " have used previously.

Now you know what I am doing. What are you up to in the UK these days? Have a great day.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 08:13:45
I can understand bypassing the thermistor . I use a delay timer to bypass the thermistor in my hybrid amp . A simple test is to measure the AC across these things under load usually shows slight volt-drop . The rest of what you are doing seems pointless . The fuse bypass is downright dangerous !!!! I have plenty of huge transformers and chokes that will probably put what you have used to shame (ever seen a 3H 1A choke ?) but I rarely use the large items apart from in breadboards . I currently run 100VA 300V 45 ohm transformers for HT with 2A3 monos which are more than adequate and run cool in operation . Wire I use is 1/0.6 for small signal (23AWG) , 19/0.2 for HT and heaters (20AWG) , 19/0.25 (18AWG) for filaments/mains wiring and 19/0.3 (16AWG) for the output transformer secondary (all silver plated copper/PTFE) . I hold stocks of silver plated copper/PTFE all the way down from 26AWG (1/0.1) to 10AWG (37/0.4) but don't feel the need to use anything this thick inside a valve amp

Al

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 08:16:18
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Stuben,

VERY nice post. Even handed. The very first things that my mentor Robert Fulton told me in 1982, about building amps, was as follows - as I recall :

(1) The 2A3 tube is a "direct access to the music" device, and it has very special requirements.

(2) Design the power supply first

(3) Power transformers need to be rated at double the current used in the circuit.

(4) Chokes need to all be "20 Ohms or less" which is hard to find ( 1982 )

(5) a topology of two chokes and two caps in series, as a filter to the finals, is better sounding, smoother sounding, than one choke and cap alone .

(5) The whole amp's B+ should be actively regulated. ( I only regulate the front end in 2014. )

Paralleling windings is one way Stuben, but NOT the best way, to get low Z. The unequal wire lengths produce skewing on sensitive speakers I will use. The best way is to use ONE low AWG winding wire on a big core, so it will all fit in the core's window. I use 950 mA. capable winding wire, ONE center tapped winding.

Do not assume I do NOT use a choke input supply.

The very first device my rectifier tube "sees" is a non critical inductance choke. This mainly strips off RF and junk that a cap input has. With a L1/C1/L2/C2 topology, I can get adequate filtering at C2, where it counts, for triode finals, and the filtering does NOT have to be too low in mVAC. The output transformer's high step-down ratio further assists here.

Low mVAC IS much needed on the amp's front end. There I usually get 2 mVAC or less, and its SHUNT regulated, with one part, a draw-down to ground power resistor.

I will use 50 uF or less for C1 and C2, and any other power supply cap in my amps. High capacitance is NOT your friend with a 2A3, etc. I try to use as little uF as I can. Very often, C1 is 30-35 uF.

Do not get mad at me, but 50 and 60 Ohms chokes to the Finals I have found is quite insufficient from all my 1982-to date sonic testing. I started in at 20 Ohms or less as the "goal" in 1982, and in 2014, I prefer 10 Ohms or less, with really GOOD wires on the leads, in and out. Performance is wonderful this way, you leave a LOT "on the table" employing large L-Critical, over 20 Ohm DCR chokes to triode Finals.

Stay in touch, write to me privately, address above.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 08:22:31
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Hi Al,

Nice post and explanation. Use what you want. I am not here to dictate what you must use !! I have A-Bed almost all of what I write about, so I have tried all I discuss. I am most happy using wire, similar to yours, but lower in AWG. YMMV, fine !! One size does not fit all.

Regarding chokes, a large size and weight I do not seek. Recall, I want low stored energy, so my choke of choice will weigh 2 pounds or less, easy to fit below deck, and I prefer 10 Ohms or less DCR.

As long as we are HAPPY in our hobby, that is what counts in the end to my way of thinking. Hi to Andy. Cheers.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 11:19:03
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"This is MY personal-use power transformer, one I designed as to specifications and had wound for me, to be used on MY new stereo 2A3 amp."

If you had the transformer custom wound, why do you need to hack on these new wire leads. Why not just specify or supply the winder with exactly what you want?

Seems very counterproductive to me as well as compromising a new custom built component.

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 11:35:32
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat - wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat wash - rinse - repeat - wash - rinse repeat

 

RE: Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 12:10:28
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005






Agree. But the trannie was already wound, and at that time, all I had was multiple TCSS. On Saturday, I send these types of wire leads off to my winder, to apply in actual construction of two more Power Trannies, which, as you would know, is the best way to do that.

I have to re-do the blue ( 843 VCT ) ground lead, later today, as I made it two inches too short. Maybe I will post a bell-cover-off photo of my "hack job " - as you would like to call it. Everything is double heat shrinked for safety Gusser.... A.M.A. approved by my cardiologist and pastor.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 12:56:08
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
. What about the wire leading into your home? I know you have an answer for that too.

 

RE: Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 13:47:13
smart845
Audiophile

Posts: 668
Location: East london
Joined: May 24, 2000
If I could wire back to the transformer about 150 metres from my house I would.

Take a look at the work Alan Maher Designs is doing. It is amazing what you can do to the power even before it gets to your amps.

When it hits your amps it needs to get to the ouput as quick as possible hence 'energy transfer' which is clearly audible as dynamics, lifelike presentation.

Call me a follower if you must but I sure am a believer.


 

RE: Confused Flamer, posted on November 26, 2014 at 15:36:19
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"When it hits your amps it needs to get to the ouput as quick as possible..."

Is something slowing it down?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 27, 2014 at 13:13:42
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
How about non-EI OPTs and/or better core and wire materials?

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 27, 2014 at 14:15:00
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Frihed89,

Core is M6 laminations, C core not too popular in the USA.

Winding wire does 950 mA.

The loss area is usually the leads, and that is what I addressed.

Music is not dynamic range limited, nor bandwidth limited.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Maxing Out my 2A3 amp's Power Transformer, posted on November 27, 2014 at 15:38:13
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
More jeffisms

 

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