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WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION

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Posted on November 21, 2014 at 14:34:16
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004



Been around the block a few times with audio, but never have owned a 300B amplifier. Have decided to start at the start, and build myself a Western Electric 91A clone. My logic is to start with this, and move to a more modern topology if I see a need for it after I experience what is possible with the original design.

Now, doing some research this really opens a can of worms, and there's a few points I would like to ask some advice on from more experienced single ended triode people. I am proposing to follow the original 91A schematic exactly, with the exception of a couple of points, and also have a couple of general questions regarding the original schematic.

1. I have read a lot of speculation as to the function of the 1MF capacitor between the voltage divider at the grid resistor of the 300B, and the self bias resistor of same, but cannot figure out its function and haven't read an adequate explanation of what it could be.

2. A lot of the "91a" circuits out there propose substituting a 6J7 or a 6C6 for the 310A, without any modification to component values. Are they really similar enough that this is a good idea?

3. I intend to not use the input transformer. I would however like to retain negative feedback from the plate of the 300B to the screen grid of the input tube, and need to figure out what sort of overall gain the amplifier has in this configuration. I am expecting it to be excessive, but am hesitant to change anything, since I don't want to mess with the negative feedback loop design.

4. Frequency shaping components in the screen grid circuit of the input tube don't have a real application if I will be using this as a power amplifier. am not sure what values to use, or maybe best to just eliminate them entirely. I read these components are related to the response of optical movie soundtracks, and thus not required.

5. Value of the choke to be substituted for "speaker field" ?

6. The coupling capacitors look very small, probably intentionally to reduce low frequency bandwidth. I will have to revise these to be larger, but don't want to ruin stability of the amplifier with negative feedback applied.

7. I understand that the brand of output transformer to choose is more or less like asking someone what is their favourite car, but feel free to state personal preference.

I realize I have more questions than answers, but any contributions are appreciated.

Best Regards

Max

 

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RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 21, 2014 at 14:45:55
mbhcid
Audiophile

Posts: 224
Location: east coast
Joined: August 8, 2006
Have you seen the 91A project from Sound Practices magazine? (Issue #1 summer 1992) It's a very nice sounding amplifier based on the original WE 91A. I think the article will answer most of your questions and also includes a schematic.

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 21, 2014 at 16:32:43
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

I've heard the DIY HiFi Supply WE-91 clone kit at RMAF in Denver some years back and must admit, to my taste in tube amp, it hit the spot.

6Moon Review: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/diyhifisupply2/max.html

Link below: More info from one who contributed to the design(or improved on it).


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

A M91 for MG iron, posted on November 21, 2014 at 21:02:30
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
Some time ago, I made up a parafeed version derived from the SP article using Magnequest iron, and posted it on Mike's forum (Magnequest Mike is a friend). I made as few changes from Joe's article as I could, trying to keep the sonic as close to Joe's as possible but with modern Magnequest iron. I'll link the thread below in case anyone is interested. The usual - anyone is free to make your own variations or copy, I'll be unhappy if you pass this off as your own or make a bunch of money without a prior agreement.

It looks like I never posted the actual circuit, just emailed it to a few people. But I'll post it here if there is some interest, along with my design notes.

 

RE: A M91 for MG iron, posted on November 21, 2014 at 21:38:14
maxhifi
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Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
There is interest here! Would love to see your adaptation Paul.

I read the sound practices article before posting here, however I don't feel as though all stones are unturned yet. Several years ago I built a 2A3 and EF37a amplifier, and I feel like I took too many shortcuts to really get the point of the whole single ended triode thing. This time I want to do it right.

 

Paul, you did indeed post it!, posted on November 21, 2014 at 22:44:04
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
Hope yo don't mind me letting folks know exactly where.

Thanks for your ongoing contributions.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 21, 2014 at 23:15:48
Frihed89
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Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
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There is more complete information about this on the Web, but I lost the URL. Maybe someone can help out?

By the way, it will take any 2.5K OPT from Magnequest, like the DS-025.

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 21, 2014 at 23:28:09
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
This looks loke a loftin white variant. The 6SF5 is more or less half a 12AX7. I think the down side to this circuit is it needs a huge B+ voltage. Never heard one but it sure looks elegant ... I have some old Color TV power transformers which would be ideal for this circuit .

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 22, 2014 at 01:34:13
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
Google on "Don Garber Fi 2A3 monoblocks" and you'll get an idea of what a slightly modified version of this circuit looks like. I believe that this circuit is also the basis for Serious Stereo 2A3 SET built by Tube Wrangler, which operates at much lower power out than the Fi Audio build.

I have heard the Fi version. (I own one). I'm not sure if it's the AVVT meshplates or the design that makes it sound so good, probably both.

 

Here's the reference, posted on November 22, 2014 at 03:03:55
Frihed89
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Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
The reference is below. The amp is on pp. 6 and 7.

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 22, 2014 at 04:04:51
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 4481
Location: North Carolina
Joined: September 28, 2013
My main amp is a 300B, but not really a 91a clone. One of the things I want to do before long is bread board the Joe Roberts clone from SP and compare the sound. Should be a good project for this winter.
I just found several 310A tubes in my stash, and Joe swore that it made a difference in the overall sound. My current amp uses a 6sn7 for a driver.

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 22, 2014 at 06:00:39
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I'd encourage you to try one of the three 91A variants mentioned in this thread (in no particular order):
Joe Roberts' version from Sound Practices #1, or
Paul Joppa's parafeed variant of the above, or
Thorsten Loesch's take on the 91A.

Re: 6C6: the very earliest 91As actually used the RCA 6C6 - the WE 310A was intended as a 6C6 clone.

Have fun

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 22, 2014 at 09:08:40
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
This one looks like one of the most interesting of all from the description, perhaps the truest to the original but unfortunately none of the images work anymore... if anyone would happen to have a schematic of his amplifier I would be very happy to see it.

Note: the amplifier in the photo doesn't appear to be the design he is talking about in his post, that nine pin miniature tube isn't part of the 91A design

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 22, 2014 at 09:13:50
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
The only one I haven't seen a schematic for yet is Thorsten Loesch's , but by reading his descritption it looks excellent. I think I will be looking at combining elements of all three designs in what I decide to build.

I also read that the earliest WE91A used the 6C6, however there's no reference to the 91A ever using a different power transformer to accomodate the different heater voltage of the 6C6 on the various schematics I have found, so I am hesitant to believe it until I see some more concrete proof.

 

6C6 in the WE 91A , posted on November 22, 2014 at 09:37:28
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
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I am not an expert in WE gear, but the attached file is an original WE 91A schematic that clearly labels V1 as a 6C6. I cannot make out the T3 power transformer model number, but it is clearly connected to the 6C6 filament.

 

RE: 6C6 in the WE 91A , posted on November 22, 2014 at 09:44:23
maxhifi
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Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
This is really interesting!

I think you explained why R41 exists. Also, note that the plate load resistor for v2 in your early version schemaric is 100k versus 90 in the one I posted. Thank you for posting this schematic, it is really cool!

 

I used to have a schematic from one of his web postings...., posted on November 22, 2014 at 09:46:22
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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It was for the original DIY Hi-Fi supply version called the Lady Day WE 91 SET, I think.

This is the amp that I heard at RMAF years ago driving as set of 'Bastani' open baffle speakers.


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Yeah, that is a later version that I understand Thorsten also contributed to..., posted on November 22, 2014 at 10:41:44
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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But not the one I heard at RMAF, which was DIY HiFi Supply's original take on the WE 91A.

I have the DIY HiFi Supply original 'Billies' which use a 6SL7 SRPP to drive the 300B. I do plan a rebuild soon, as these amps are now over 10 years old. Best case would be to find the schematic for the original DIY HiFI WE 91 SET version and do a major upgrade, as I have heard this amp compared to mine in the same room at RMAF and clearly prefer the sound of the WE91 version.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

WECo 91A/B--Long, but hopefully informative, posted on November 22, 2014 at 12:06:13
gilmorneau
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Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
The WECo model 91 amps are something I've learned a bit about over the (many) years I've been in audio, so hopefully I can be of help. I'll try to address your points/questions directly, but may wander off topic slightly to correct some misinformation that seems to resurface regularly.

BTW, people often refer to the 91-A and 91-B interchangeably, but there are differences. The 91-A was (not surprisingly) first, and had a power transformer suitable for use on 60Hz lines only, using power transformer number 352-A. The 91-B was introduced about 4 months later, and came with a larger power transformer, model 359-A, which allowed for operation on 50 or 60Hz lines. Other differences are more subtle.

Both the 91-A and 91-B came installed in a metal wall cabinet, with a speaker and field supply included. Together, the whole kit was called the 500A system, and was intended for wall mounting in the projection room of a theater. The 91 amps were never intended to be stand-alone amplifiers for hi-fi use. Neither were they solely relegated to duty as projection room monitors, as some on the web claim. The original WECo literature clearly shows them matched with and connected to the stage speaker of an auditorium.

1. Like you, I have never received what I believe to be a satisfactory explanation of this capacitor's purpose. I'm just a hobbyist, not an electrical engineer, though. Seems like feedback to me, and is probably meant to correct deficiencies in the original output transformer's limited FR, but this is only speculation. If one of the brilliant EE's out there could take the time to analyze this and give a definitive answer, I and the OP would be most grateful. BTW, if you look at the schematics for other WECo amps of the period (e.g. the 86C), you'll see the same arrangement.

2. Yes, a 6J7 or 6C6 would be suitable as a substitute for the originally spec'd 310A. Compare the data sheets and you'll see very similar performance, close enough that in later versions of the 91 amps, WECo themselves showed the 6C6 (an RCA developed tube!) in the schematics. Yes, contrary to what is widely reported on the internet, the 310A was originally specified in both the 91A and 91B variants (i.e. the 310A came first, the 6C6 later). The earliest original WECo Service Bulletin I have, dated June, 1936, shows the 310A. The earliest reference I could find to the 6C6 on original WECo literature is dated 1938. If you have original WECo literature dating the 6C6 to before June 1936, please share. The 6C6 came later, probably because of its ease of acquisition (if your movie theater was in rural America in the 1930's, your local hardware store probably had 6C6's, but you'd have to order 310A's from WECo. No 310A's meant no sound, no movie, and no money for you.) 310A had 10V filaments, 6-pin base. 6C6 has the same base, but 6.3V filaments (hence the voltage dropping resistor in the filament line of the 1938 schematic). 6J7 is a 6C6 with octal base. There are differences other than that, though. There are early mesh and punched plates, while most of the later tubes are solid. Each will have it's own sonic signature in an amp this simple.

3. In a home audio application, the input transformer is not necessary for gain. You may wish to use a 1:1 transformer for isolation, but that would be system dependent. You could also use a grid choke on the first 6C6, so it 'sees' the same impedance to ground as it would if using a transformer.

I have not calculated the gain of the amp minus the input transformer, but could probably make an educated guess. Total gain of the amp as spec'd by WECo is 92dB (the 91-B allows for reducing this to 82dB by strapping out one of the feedback resistors). I don't have the spec's in front of me, but a reasonable estimate for the gain of the input transformer is probably, say, 30dB? That leaves around 62dB for the amp circuitry (or 52dB with the feedback altered as noted). 52dB is still about a 400x voltage gain, if my numbers are correct, which means input sensitivity of, what, about 0.25V for full power out and is probably still more than you need, but not absurdly so. (All quick calculations, BTW--please correct me if I'm way off base). To reduce the sensitivity, you could further increase the feedback (more so than recommended by WECo).

4. The frequency correcting network was indeed intended to account for the HF limitations of optical soundtracks (it is explained in some detail in an article in International Projectionist magazine dated Nov. 1936). With a poorly focused soundtrack, it can judiciously extend FR a bit, but when combined with a source having a flat frequency response, it makes for a 6dB or so peak at around 7kHz. Not ideal. The circuit is not totally useless, however. A pentode driving a triode has an inherently limited HF response, and if the frequency correcting feedback network were tweaked to boost at, say, 20kHz, instead of 7kHz, it might be made to usefully extend the circuit's FR upward enough to satisfy modern 'hi-fi' standards. Worth experimenting with. Any EE's want to tackle how to do that? Post here.

5. Original field supply probably had around 1000 ohms +/- resistance (in order to get the voltages right). Could only guess at the Henry rating. The original power supply used relatively little capacitance (20uf before the choke, 10uF after) and probably had unacceptably high levels of hum for use in hi-fi. Unless you're going to be using the original power transformer, I'd suggest building a proper PSU using modern components. There are those who will propose all sorts of unorthodox designs for PSU's (I'm surprised they haven't thread-jacked yet), but a relatively conventional and well executed design was put forth by Thorsten in his 'YAWE91' thread a few years ago on the AA DIY forum. It would be a good starting point.

6. The coupling capacitors are indeed small and will limit FR somewhat. The feedback helps with this, and it was all likely designed together, as a system. Original WECo response curves show nothing below 50Hz or above 10kHz. You may find this is more satisfactory than you imagine. It's worth a try before you start to modifying things. It will depend a lot on your speakers.

7. Output transformer options are myriad. If you're going to be building the amp as originally spec'd, then I'd argue that there's no reason to get a super wide bandwidth, high power output transformer. If your plans include upgrades in the future that may widen the BW or increase the power, then all the usual suspects are suitable.

FWIW, I have built this circuit (with and without modifications) using Partridge, Tango, Magnequest, Electra-Print, and rewound original core WECo 171A transformers, all with good (though different) results.

Best,

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Long, but hopefully informative, posted on November 22, 2014 at 12:46:51
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
Thank you for taking time time to write such a detailed response, it actually is a big help, and it settles some points too.

1. Input tubes will be metal 6J7. 6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. Metal version because of shielding.

2. The tone shaping network will require some playing with to get right.

3. I will use PSUD-II to model various power supply configurations, but I plan on staying with multiple series connected electrolytics, like western electric did... The challenge will be specifying an appropriate choke.

4. Output tx puts me at a loss. You seem to have tried them all, basically I would say I will buy it on spec ... Best compromise between distortion at 20 hz, -3db high frequency limit, and price. Not everyone has this info though so it may take some gambling to get it right.

5 I plan to start with as close as possible circuit to original and then optimize it, so wiide bandwidth is absolutely necessary from output tx

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 22, 2014 at 15:22:25
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Frihed89:

In 1947, Jack Robin and Chester Lipman published a small $2.00 book entitled “Practical Amplifier Designs”, sub-titled “45 Proven Circuits for the Technician and Experimenter “. One of their circuits in this book actually was a two stage direct coupled (6SF5 - 6B4G) all triode amp shown by you in this thread, and probably similar to the “Fi” amps of today .

A couple decades later, I imagine Asano and Shishido were obviously privy to that book and schematic you posted.

The Serious Stereo amp is somewhat different.

Topology wise, it does NOT take the B+ for the driver tube from the top of the Final's tube cathode. ( Not stabilized and too low in VDC ). No, not at all. It uses a R/C network off of the main B+, a slightly higher B+, and feeds the front end tube from a "cleaner" and higher B+, a R-Dropper you may call it. Dennis voltage choices and op points are ideal for highest fidelity and longevity.

Additionally, unlike many a DC amp I have seen, Dennis employs a simple shunt regulator, a no feedback type, such that it lowers the Z of the driver supply to wonderful levels. This gives his amps a GREAT low end, and stabilizes the mu of 100 driver tube, advantageously. So, the driver stage is totally shunt regulated, unflappable, and has a mVAC content of under 2 mVAC !!

Then, there are other DF topology audio circuit tweeks that I am not at privy and hesitant to discuss, but very very effective from my experimenting with them.

Dennis, in my experience, has the "most perfect" topology and execution of any of these DC amps I have studied, by far. And I am not just talking about his B+ filtering to the finals, LSES !!!

Just A-B Dennis' DC 2A3 amps, particularly his latest ones !!!, with ANY other DC amp. That tells the tale. Lakerfan uses a mildly-updated early DF amp, and reported what he hears to us - and he claims he has owned 50 SETS !!

Jeff Medwin

 

Which of Thorsten's schemas would you like?, posted on November 22, 2014 at 16:17:23
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
I have his Thorsten's and also a couple (I think) of 310A driving a 300B variants posted to AA. Let me know if you would like me to send you a pdf version.

I like the pentode-drives-DHT sonics and will continue to explore them for the next year or so. I am currently putting some thoughts together for a 6C6 directly-coupled to a 2A3; should produce 45-like power, enough for my GPA duplexes. Now, if only I could get a transformer winder to provide a quote/ commit to winding a mildly custom output trans (ie. adjusting OPT gap)!

Enjoy.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

What's this? More Serious Stereo shilling,, posted on November 22, 2014 at 17:25:46
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
After all the discussions below must we still endure this in every thread here?

 

ALL OF THEM!, posted on November 22, 2014 at 17:50:03
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
At least all of them that apply to the DIY HIFI Supply Lady Day 'Billies' 300B SET which I built WAY back when Brian Cherry first sold them as a kit.

By the way, has anyone heard from Brian Cherry lately? He is no longer available at DIY HIFI for at least the last year. Visited him in Hong Kong a couple times over the years but not since 2006 or so.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 22, 2014 at 18:27:18
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2484
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Hi Jeff.

I know you mean well, and like what you hear, but all I wanted to do in the first place was to contribute something useful to the guys here.

What I didn't want was for me or my equipment to become a "Hot Topic" discussion item.

Everyone on here has the right to his own favorite topology, and right or wrong, ordinary-sounding or not, he also has the right to believe in it.

In fact, believing in what one is doing is a key step towards improving anything, so give these guys a break.

I don't wish for this "praise-to-the-moon", and then "kick-to-the-Gutter", "scientific", then "non-scientific" cycle to persist any longer--it's not useful to forum members, many of whom are plenty smart enough to understand both camps..

The Flame-Outs are getting increasingly psychotic to say the least-- even to the point of denying the common IEC socket wiring topology that EVERYBODY uses!.

Let's all return to reality and common decency and do things objectively, and show due respect for different apps, methods, and listening preferences..

---Dennis---

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. ", posted on November 22, 2014 at 18:29:22
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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I thought the 6SJ7 was an octal tube?

Or are you speaking of the WE 310?




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. ", posted on November 22, 2014 at 19:09:04
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
I read an article a long time ago, maybe in audio magazine, maybe radio&tv news, to be honest I forget the origin. The author tested all the small signal pentodes, and the conclusion was that the 6J7 has better performance than the 6SJ7, 6AU6, etc.

What I meant about sockets, is I would prefer to use an octal socket instead of the old fashioned 6 pin socket the 6C6 and the 310A use.

 

Please set up a serious stereo forum, posted on November 22, 2014 at 19:25:49
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
set up a separate SS forum or a DC 2a3 forum and spare us.

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 22, 2014 at 19:27:45
GEO
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Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Get a room...separate forum. did Gusser not say he stands corrected regarding IEC as you acknowledged you could not see it was properly connected in the photo. He did not "deny" something common. Has Don Garber been around this forum shilling?

 

Yes, I assumed as much..., posted on November 22, 2014 at 19:36:15
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
I would prefer an octal tube as long as it's within a couple % of the sound I heard with the WE 310A (actually what I heard used a Soviet version of the 310A)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Yes, everyone please STOP!!!!, posted on November 22, 2014 at 20:12:18
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
Please keep the craziness in the crazy thread below. This thread doesn't need it.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: WESTERN ELECTRIC 91A CLONE DISCUSSION, posted on November 22, 2014 at 20:36:18
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
Look at the pictures of Shindo LTD WE 300B amplifier .It looks like the closest incarnation of WECO amp using mostly components of the era (original WE OPTS) three stages , feedback and reportedly sounding excellent. Schematic though is a closely guarded secret.
All other so called WE91 amps besides using pentode input have probably (and for good or for bad )little in common with true WECO sound .

 

I believe DIY HiFi Supply..., posted on November 22, 2014 at 20:53:03
RC Daniel
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Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
is no longer owned by Brian. I also recall there being some differences of opinion between Thorsten and the new owners regarding some of their boards... the power supply IIRC.

I will see what I can do about Thorsten's posts. I remember it taking a bit of searching to find them on AA, but I now have them saved... somewhere!

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. ", posted on November 22, 2014 at 20:58:40
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
Yeah, maybe stick with 6J7 as the safer option.

There are good versions of the UX6 sockets available, but availability of the 6C6 tubes is starting to get patchy. I have over ten pairs remaining, but two pairs have broken (cap gripped the loose grid connections a little too tightly). Probably my fault though, oops.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

Thanks!, posted on November 22, 2014 at 21:17:46
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
I thought I had but was looking in the wrong place.

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 22, 2014 at 21:38:15
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
OK, will do and co operate. Cheers !!

Jeff Medwin

 

Stop looking backwards; move forward., posted on November 22, 2014 at 21:39:28
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
Someone on one side of this conflict has recognised that the bickering needs to stop. There is a small prospect of improved relations; maybe even civility, heaven forbid.

To both sides: if you simply can't let it go and move on, let us know what outcome you would like from this petty conflict and how - perhaps with our help - you are going to achieve it. But really, trying to square a ledger of past grievances rarely in my experience delivers productive outcomes for either side of a conflict. It is currently rather miserable - move forward.

Act like the intelligent professionals you claim to be.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Long, but hopefully informative, posted on November 22, 2014 at 21:55:13
Paul Joppa
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Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
To the best of my knowledge (gilmorneau, correct or expand if you have something!) the original output transformer was built on a core shape that has not existed for decades. Not having seen one, or the winding design, or heard one, I won't even guess about performance!

The Peerless TFA-204 was apparently designed as a replacement unit for the Model 91. I have experience with the Magnequest version of this design (Mike has the design archives) which, while a wonderful transformer in its own right, cannot handle the Model 91's 70mA of DC plate current without moving into saturation territory on loud bass signals. I would guess that the movies being shown in the forties and early fifties did not normally have much bass below 50-100Hz, so this would not have been a problem. But for these reasons I would suggest getting a larger and more capable output transformer for audiophile use.

 

Could only find one. Linked., posted on November 23, 2014 at 01:25:13
RC Daniel
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Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
You probably already have it, but here goes. Edit: you have already linked it below. I was sure there was another, but maybe I am mistaken.


If you would also like some of Thorsten's others posts on the subjects - mostly related to his Legacy - and how these types of amps compare to other faves of his, shoot me a PM so I can send on some stuff by reply email.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

Thorsten and JC Verdier, posted on November 23, 2014 at 05:18:43
Mr_Steady
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Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
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RCD,

I would like to second the motion for a Thorsten 91, except with a 6P15P as the driver tube, and with the JCV 6AS7 VR circuit.

Have you ever built the JCV VR circuit? Any comments about it? Does it reduce hum?

Thanks,

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Long, but hopefully informative, posted on November 23, 2014 at 05:22:49
Mr_Steady
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Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
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Thanks gilmorneau for the great post. I know it will help a lot of people think out their options.

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. ", posted on November 23, 2014 at 05:25:57
Mr_Steady
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Location: North Florida
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MHF,

"I read an article a long time ago, maybe in audio magazine, maybe radio&tv news, to be honest I forget the origin. The author tested all the small signal pentodes, and the conclusion was that the 6J7 has better performance than the 6SJ7, 6AU6, etc."

I've read the same thing too somewhere. Are yours British made?

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Consider this DC circuit for 2A3, posted on November 23, 2014 at 06:01:54
GEO
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Contributor
  Since:
September 9, 2000
Moving forward would be not to bash or slight another design.

 

"6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7", posted on November 23, 2014 at 06:17:58
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
The external grid cap is most likely the biggest contributor to the lower distortion.

In general, I've found that tubes with separate grid/plate caps sound better.

 

Link to Thorsten's Legacy 300B, posted on November 23, 2014 at 06:24:09
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I have no experience with this circuit - provided for informational purposes.

 

That's Dowdy Lama! Yep, that's one of the first versions...., posted on November 23, 2014 at 07:34:46
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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But I seem to recall he made some additional changes in order to flatten the frequency response in the version that DIY HIFI Supply eventually sold as a kit. I think he discusses it in the post below which no longer contains links to the schematics.

"A last trick is implemented in a pair of 1nF capacitors between the 300B Anode and 310A screengrid. This is actually positive feedback at high frequencies. This helps to overcome the HF rolloff inherent to the classic 91 Circuit, where usually 20KHz is around 3db down. In my Amp's I measure -3db somewhere at around 75KHz with this positive feedback in place, without -3db is around 20KHz as expected."

Also the 'optimized WE Cathode Bypass' which he discusses and which I suspect was likely the precursor to Jack Eliano's 'Ultrapath' circuit and which I have already implemented in my 300B amps.

I think, all and all, with his circuit description below and the circuit diagrams in page you linked to, one could pretty much duplicate the final product I heard at RMAF so many years ago.

Link below:


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Make that "Thanks, Dowdy Lama"..., posted on November 23, 2014 at 07:55:50
Ivan303
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Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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Should never post before the second cup of coffee!


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Amertran, posted on November 23, 2014 at 07:58:53
GSH
A transformer company of the same period, made a replacement OPT for the 91.
I have a 1935 catalog, that does Not seem to show it, but does indicate that it's best offerings are spec'd +-1db 30-15Khz, which was/is better than the stock WE 171A. This was 1935.

I remember this because I knew a hustler who was formerly the main theater service man for the bay area. Numerous 91's went through his hands, on their way to Japan, I witnessed several of them, when he got them out of whatever former installation. I remember him being bummed out for money reasons when he found one with the Amertrans on it, but he explained it was actually a superior unit, just not "original" which would equate to the highest collector value. I was able to listen and compare two 91's, one stock and one with the Amertran OPT, and it was clear, it extended in both directions farther than the 171A.

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Additional points and some corrections, posted on November 23, 2014 at 09:02:41
gilmorneau
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Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
First, a couple corrections/edits to my post above.

I initially came up with a sensitivity of 0.25V but on re-thinking it, it's probably even more sensitive than that--around 0.05V input for full output. Still a 'back of a napkin' casual calculation, but I think it's closer to correct. Obviously, some sort of attenuation will be required for home use.

Also, I said the 'field supply' had a resistance of around 1000 ohms. What I meant, of course, was that the field winding on the speaker had about 1000 ohms (used as the choke for the amp's power supply filter).

Regarding the series connected capacitors on the original, WECo did this in order to reliably get the necessary voltage rating out of the electrolytic capacitors available at the time. There's no need to do it, and no advantage, if you can source capacitors with sufficient voltage ratings. OTOH, if you do decide to use series capacitors, it's essential to parallel the voltage dividing resistors across them to ensure that each cap gets equal voltage.

Regarding output transformers: As noted below, the original WECo 171A trans were wound on (what is now) an archaic type of lamination, namely a CIC type, which I understand is no longer available. There are those who salvage the cores from other WECo transformers and chokes in order to rewind them to something like 171A specification. There is (or was) at least one vendor in the USA who resells 171A on cores rewound in Japan. Note that the original 171A and its clones have very limited primary inductance, on the order of 10Hy. If you gap them for more DC in the primary, you get less inductance. If you gap them for more inductance, you get less DC in the primary before saturation. Nature is cruel.

The Peerless/Magnequest TFA-204 is the closest thing available new AFAIK. It is a good little transformer, wound on conventional EI lams, but requires adjustment to the original circuit values in order to perform optimally. The original 91 amps pulled 80mA through the transformer, the TFA 204 isn't happy with any more than 60mA.

I am unfamiliar with the Amtrans option mentioned by GSH, though I'm not surprised they're not mentioned in a 1935 catalog if they're really meant as model 91 replacement transformers--the model 91 wasn't introduced until 1936. Does anyone have a 1936 or later Amtrans catalog with showing the transformers GSH mentions? Please post.

I have to agree that any of the three 'original' types just outlined will be of limited utility for full-range, hi-fi use. Maybe adequate for reproducing an impression of 1930's sound (if you had the right speakers), but get a bigger, wider bandwidth transformer for highest satisfaction. I like the Partridge best, but they have become difficult to source.

Several people have mentioned a reference to 6J7 having lower distortion than a 6SJ7. Radiotron Designer's Handbook (4th ed.) page 510. It has probably been reprinted since, but there it is.

In his 'YAWE91' thread, Thorsten advocates for using POSITIVE feedback to boost the high frequencies a bit. WECo used frequency selective NEGATIVE
feedback to achieve the same end. Thorsten's is a viable (though tricky) approach, but is not authentic to the original model 91 ethos, which seems to be the OP's intent.

Almost hate to indulge them by mentioning it, but as I predicted in my point 5 above, the thread-jackers have apparently arrived. It would be funny if it weren't so tedious. In what sense is a suggestion to try a DC 2A3 amp helpful to someone explicitly inquiring about an authentic WECo model 91 clone? Sure, a DC 2A3 can make for a satisfying little amplifier, no doubt. But it's not the ONLY way, and it's not even the best. People who listen to other topologies are not ignorant--they may know things the DC 2A3 crowd doesn't. There's more than one way, for sure. But it needs to be its own discussion thread.

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7, and it avoids the need for a weird tube socket. ", posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:02:35
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
Yes, a friend in the UK sent them too me as a gift years ago. I just put them back in the amp... Vesus the RCA 6J7 I have to say the difference if any is sure not obvious. I thought the RCAs sounded better before but now I am not so sure.

 

RE: Link to Thorsten's Legacy 300B, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:16:35
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014



"I have no experience with this circuit - provided for informational purposes."

Yes that's it. I didn't remember it with an SV83/6P15P.

Does anybody have any experience with this type of tube regulated power supply? If somebody wanted to explain how this differs from using a gas voltage regulator tube, then I would greatly appreciate it. Are both useful in lowering hum?

Thanks in advance for any replys,

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Additional points and some corrections, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:21:40
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
Another awesome post! Thank you again. The RDH4 was my bed time reading for a couple years in the 1990s so that makes a lot of sense that is the source - thanks for the reference!

I am now very curious as to how the Shindo labs 91a manages excessive gain, since they seem to be one of the only "clones" to maintain two gain stages plus negative feedback.

I understand very well that there is no need for the series connected electrolytic capacitors, my idea is just to build it as close to original as possible, with the exception of the output trabsformer - this project will take a bit of financial outlay and i don't intend to spend a pile of money on an amplifier which can't achieve wide bandwidth performance.

What model partridge do you have specifically ? Difficult to source is not impossible to source, and that is quite a name to recon with.

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7", posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:46:30
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
"The external grid cap is most likely the biggest contributor to the lower distortion.

In general, I've found that tubes with separate grid/plate caps sound better."

Is the lower distortion caused by being able to run higher voltage, lower current on the tube, because of the plate cap?

GEC made a KT88 with a grid cap that is much sought after. I would have thought China/Russia would have reproduced by now. George Anderson at Tubelab has a favorite tube that he says is a 300B with a plate cap. Can't remember the name.




Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Additional points and some corrections, posted on November 23, 2014 at 10:50:39
GSH
I'm surprised you haven't heard of these. They were regarded higher than the Thordarson True Fidelity series, the only other pre WWII transformers to state hi-fi as other than 100-10Khz. Paul Mundt, the aforementioned hustler believed some Amertrans OPT's were installed on NEW WE91's, especially if it was destined for a small theater system and NOT the monitor. Who knows, but they are good! In the 1935 catalog, they suggest their parallel feed reactors in combination with their existing selection for SE use.













 

Schema., posted on November 23, 2014 at 12:03:32
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
Hey Ivan, I did not notice that the schema had been removed from that post.

Here it is:



Note, this design uses the partial WE connection: 50uF cathode bypass capacitor with 15uF B+ to cathode capacitor. Thorsten's later (DRD) amps used the full B+ to cathode connection (50uF+ using multiple capacitors in parallel) with no cathode bypass capacitor.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7", posted on November 23, 2014 at 12:07:33
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
It's because it is not the same tube internally, it's not related to the grid cap.

 

RE: Thorsten and JC Verdier, posted on November 23, 2014 at 12:17:46
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
Hey Steady,

No, have never built the JCV VR circuit; I am not exactly sure what it is and don't have the time to look right now.

If it is used to stabilise he driver tube screen, my guess is it would have more of an affect with the high GM pentode drivers, but I can't remember why.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: "6J7 has lower distortion than 6SJ7", posted on November 23, 2014 at 12:21:19
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
"It's because it is not the same tube internally, it's not related to the grid cap."

Cool. Still it seems that many tubes with grid caps have good reps for good sound. Wonder why that is?

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

'it is not the same tube internally', posted on November 23, 2014 at 14:01:56
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
Are you quite certain of this?

You may be correct - but it seems to me that it was too easy to simply take a 6J7 and move the grid connection to the base.

 

RE: 'it is not the same tube internally', posted on November 23, 2014 at 14:45:12
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
Lots of tubes are different when you wouldn't expect them to be:

i.e. 6N7 is different than the 6SN7
the 6Q7 has a lower mu than the 6SQ7

The 6J7 has a lower transconductance than the 6SJ7, and better linearity

Probably the 6SJ7 is better optimized for RF use.

 

Yes, that's it...., posted on November 23, 2014 at 14:57:10
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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That's just about the same circuit that ended up in the DYI HIFI Supply WE91 SET amp.

Sure would like to take a whack at upgrading my current 300B amps but would be a LOT of work. Might try it with an octal driver with a 6V heater of some sort, like the 6J7.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: 'it is not the same tube internally', posted on November 23, 2014 at 16:54:37
Jim Dowdy
Manufacturer

Posts: 1518
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: July 22, 2000
I hear you - but I'm still unconvinced that the biggest difference is not (all but) eliminating the grid to plate capacitance.

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Additional points and some corrections, posted on November 23, 2014 at 17:45:55
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
I'm familiar with AmerTran, I just wasn't aware that they offered a series feed single ended transformer suitable for use in a WECo 91 circuit. Wouldn't happen to know the reference number, would you?

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Additional points and some corrections, posted on November 23, 2014 at 18:44:31
GSH
no, but I think I also remember seeing them mentioned in those large Altec service binders, Graybar, etc... I think those were called an upgrade.
Maybe I'm dreaming. And yes they seem to have been series fed, not the 1935 versions. I actually saw them on 91 amps. Wires came out the top, flanges on the bottom.

 

RE: 'it is not the same tube internally', posted on November 23, 2014 at 19:16:57
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
The data sheets show the same .005pF control grid to plate.

I must not be understanding this thread.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: WECo 91A/B--Shindo Info and Partridge Output Transformers, posted on November 23, 2014 at 20:18:33
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
The Shindo amp has much less gain than a 'stock' 91-B because it isn't the model 91 circuit, really. Tube compliment on the Shindo is one 310, one 311, one 300B and (I think) one 5R4. There's a big difference between a 310 and a 311. The 310 is a high gain, small signal pentode. The 311 is a power pentode with much less gain (but capable of more power) than the 310. I have no more insight into how Shindo utilizes it than anyone else, but I suspect it's used for its power, to provide a driver with more 'gumption' than just a 310. It might be pentode wired, might be triode wired, or it might be wired as a cathode follower, direct coupled (or transformer coupled) to the output tube. That would really give the amp some 'drive' (and much less gain than a 'stock' 91-B).

The Partridge transformers I have carry part number TK7441. The Partridge literature I have lists the TK4519 and TK4663/2 as having the same specifications.

 

RE: A M91 for MG iron, posted on November 24, 2014 at 07:44:19
johnsonad
Audiophile

Posts: 759
Location: Central California
Joined: June 9, 2008
Paul,

How tapped out is the power transformer for filament current? Say I would like to drive a pair of EML 300B mesh plates which draw 1.5 Amps, can this circuit support that within 5% or should I consider a separate filament transformer? If a different transformer, can you recommend one (at least voltage and current) that would work with the FT-1 and support 1.2 to 1.5 Amp draw?

Thanks,

Aaron

 

ebay transformers, posted on November 24, 2014 at 13:23:01
maxhifi
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: August 4, 2004
Any ideas what these are?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300B-SE-tube-output-transformer-one-pair-Similar-Western-Electric-171A-for-91A-/121490405993?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c49647a69

They sure do LOOK the part.

 

RE: ebay transformers, posted on November 24, 2014 at 20:46:15
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
No direct experience with them, but the description is not very detailed, and there are no photos of the transformer core/windings. Might be original WECo laminations in there, but you'd think he'd be showing them off if so. I expect a dissection would show a fairly small, EI lam transformer. If anyone's bought them and looked inside, do share what you've found.

There's a company in Japan that I know rewinds to genuine WECo cores as used in the 171A. Their version of the 171A sells for US$1995/pr, last I checked. TubesUSA can get them for you.

 

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