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we all build amps

70.36.214.224
Posted on April 7, 2014 at 22:44:49
GSH
 which is what we have in common. What is not common to this group is the "how to listen" angle, which leads to multiple misunderstandings.

After years of observation, I will state a few findings.

There really are layers of understanding that equate to an ABILTY to listen. There IS a connection between the contained knowledge derived from countless DIRECT experiences with both acoustic instruments and electric, and with the prowess with which one approaches a reproduced recording.

I'm not going to get into better or worse, but I am going to declare some
real differences in ability to judge what is going on.

It goes beyond direct experience which will be defined more clearly further on. It includes an understanding of composition, song writing,
pitch, typical tendencies, atypical as well, microphones (what they do, what they don't, which for what and why) what happens in a room this size, that size, what to expect, what to not etc...

Then add in countless experiences working as, and with musicians, one on one, witnessing every combination imaginable of guitar and amp, or bass and amp, or piano in this room, that room, that drum kit, at that temperature, in that room, with those mikes, or those other mikes at that other distance on that otherday ........

This stuff stacks in a statistical way, where at a point, you SEE a combination of elements (without having yet heard a thing) and your brain/experience predict within boundaries what you will hear, and then you hear, and are confirmed almost always. This leads to a "different" ability to listen IMHO.

Within seconds of hearing a reproduced recording (for the first time), usually 4 or 8 bars, every instrument has been identified quite specifically (or damn close), if electric, then what amp and toys too, bass rig, (a p-bass through an SVT sounds way different than a Rick 4001 through a Bassman 10) whether or not this is live in the room or multitrack, what to expect in either case based on the obvious (from the POV of a person with this knowledge), what mikes, is that an SM58 ? or ?


So what happens is, there is an immediate assessment of how close this comes to what the KNOWN tone that comes from these combinations is.
This is quickly noted, and then forgotten and the focus is on what they are doing. Because composition and songwriting is something you understand decently well, it's all about the play. Did you hear her sing flat there ? Did you hear that mistake the drummer made, but "saved" it with that inventive bandaid? Most people miss this stuff. They're not listening for it, because they don't know the difference. It's not their fault, they just didn't have the earned/learned ABILITY.

If you haven't sat with a strat and a Deluxe Reverb, or a Les Paul and a 50W Marshall, or played drums, or piano, or ever tried setting up two mikes in a room for a live recording of a 7 piece acoustic bluegrass band,
etc.... then you just don't have the "same" context with which to "see it coming" and then devote the attention to what is left that you "can't see coming" get it ?

I have to back up Tre' on this one finally. This is for real, and the "illusion of it happening here and now" (sorry Dave) is a wish at best with low odds, the goal is undefined, unrealistic and includes unreasonable expectations mainly on recording quality. No amp circuit can
"truely" fix deficiencies in a recording, which I feel some try to do, forget it.

I have maybe 3 or 4 recordings that are so well done that they really
convey what really happens with that kind of combination of elements.
Without profoundly knowing what those elements really do right here right now, how could I ever know the difference?


So, those with this kind of ability to listen, are listening for something SPECIFIC. Those without it, are looking for a "sensation"
that's definition comes from, I'm not sure where, but it's largely imaginary, understandably.

I encourage those without, to get with it. And for those who don't want to, to show some temperance (at least) when criticizing the subjective
views of those with it. I also agree with Tre' that high fidelity is
about what's on that recording. Think now, that SPECIFIC interest comes from understanding WELL what "recordings" are capable of, being able to identify quickly and thoroughly what level of quality the recording is, accept, and yet still look for what IS POSSIBLE within that context, and NOT LOOK for what couldn't possibly be there.

This is a "way" to listen that is NOT common to us all.
To me, this explains well the consistent "differences" in taste
in circuits and/or approach to them.

Maybe we can accept two different "camps" within the same hobby,
and maybe listening ability itself can be a real subject, improvable by anyone who wants to.






 

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RE: we all build amps, posted on April 8, 2014 at 00:05:38
FenderLover
 Interesting thoughts. Making music is partly an emotional thing. A thing hard to put into words. But, easy to hear. A feel of a rhythm and a mood.

All I know, is if you are out of "the groove," the other guys start looking at each other with question marks over their heads.


8^)

 

RE: we all build amps, posted on April 8, 2014 at 08:39:27
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003
 the way I look at audio is the ability to reproduce what has been already recorded or captured. a good system should able to dig out all info faithfully. Audio is not about the ability to reproduce or duplicate live music.
It is the duty of recording engineer, production screw to capture a live recording or an event that made in studio, as faithful and original as possible, sometimes with certain degree of editing.

 

I don't build amps......., posted on April 8, 2014 at 10:25:35
viridian
 but living in Portland Oregon, ground zero for the SET movement, I can tell you that, IMHO, most amp builders that I have met are not particularly sophisticated listeners and don't have much experience listening to live music. A broad generalization, no doubt.

Additionaly, musicians are notoriously poor judges of reproduced music. Maybe it's because their perspective is, often, from very close to the instruments, or PA speakers, and less commonly from the audience perspective that most music lovers try to reproduce in a home setting.

 

weak link, posted on April 8, 2014 at 13:24:13
Kloss
 Sure a educated ear is best but when judging amplifier performance one needs a few capable loudspeakers. Since amplifiers interact with loudspeakers load. You yourself posted this (Altec (GPA) 604's in Karlson K-15's, stock horrible XO's.) So I do wonder how you can build a neutral to source amplifier with such limitations and little if no variability in load. I do enjoy Altecs and Karlson but with a ham strung network and the coloration of the resonating k slot baffles your going to have a massive collation to sound character, it can be pleasant but isn't designing with coloration what you complaining others do? So maybe you can clarify since you've got me confused at the contradiction.

 

I'm not sure what your main point is, posted on April 8, 2014 at 15:09:39
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I know nothing about music and i have several different ear diseases. And I don't really listen to anything intently for very long. Sitting still bores me stiff.

Nevertheless, as long as i am awake, the music is always playing in my flat, no matter what I am doing.

What am i doing wrong?

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 8, 2014 at 18:08:16
GSH
 I'm not really a speaker designer, so far I've just bought a product
that was supposed to be good. Compared to previous junk, it was an improvement. It didn't take long however to find that they had issues too.


The Altecs behave pretty well upto a point, and that's not very loud.
Since I know what they're doing wrong (to some degree) when I go a little louder, I just put up with it, since I have no choice at the moment.

I don't know why I'd what variability in my speaker load, I'm trying to get away from exactly that. My new and first DIY speaker project is almost done, and I went to some trouble to select flatter impedance and response curves in the devises I chose, I hope this will overcome my disappointments with the 604's, we'll see.

I agree that speakers are the weakest link.

The point I was making is that there are a variety of abilities in listening, thinking they're all approaching the same goal set, and they're actually not. Which is fine, but I felt it needed to be called what it is, and the differences spelled out and respected. The hope was to end some of the "declarations" made by some to those who are in a different ball park.

 

RE: I'm not sure what your main point is, posted on April 8, 2014 at 18:13:44
GSH
 Nothing. And thanks for sharing yet another valid type of listening.
My guess is that you don't tweek your amps constantly looking for an improvement that you then declare to the world is "the answer".
If it's music and it's playing, then it's good. Not a bad place to be...

 

RE: I'm not sure what your main point is, posted on April 8, 2014 at 22:37:51
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 You're right and i have given a lot of perfectly good equipment away to my children, so they can be as fortunate as i have been, but at an earlier age.

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 9, 2014 at 09:23:47
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Let me say, with tongue partially in cheek, "please don't let reality confuse the issue!" **

It's more about the intent.

If we build an amplifier that theory tells us will have frequency response aberrations and/or increased harmonic distortion when there's no excuse other than a person with uneducated ears saying "I like the way it *sounds*", at that point it all really does become totally subjective.

An example would be to use a driver stage that can't possibly drive the reactance of the Miller capacitance of the output tube at the higher frequencies and a output tube purposefully operated in a non-linear fashion...either of which would be easy-peasy to "fix" from a technical standpoint.

At that point we're not building with an intent toward neutrality but with the intent to "please" our own "tastes".

A person with an educated ear can, to some degree, ignore his own tastes and try to do his best at being objective as to whether the playback is "neutral" or not.

This is what I mean by intent. If a person is just trying to create a system that pleases his personal tastes, without regard for "neutral to source", then they have a different goal set. A different intent.

** "neutral to source" is a goal that can't be reached. But when we, on purpose, stop trying then we have changed the intent.

I still say the original intent (of this hobby) is to reproduce the recording as faithfully as we can and (at the same time) search for better and better recordings.

We can't do either if we don't take the time to educate our ears first.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Great engines without a car is pretty useless, posted on April 9, 2014 at 16:30:39
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
 Frankly, I will take good speakers over a good amp anyday. Below are TAD2001s on top of very nice pro 10" midrange on top of 12" bass. The bass uses solid state though an Erno Borbely electronic crossover. If you have low distortion, high efficiency and great bass, it is hard to go wrong. That being said, if I just had my HK receiver and Klipsch Heresy speakers I would be happily listening to music as well



 

Huh? nt, posted on April 9, 2014 at 21:05:42
Byrd69
Audiophile

Posts: 2881
Location: East Syracuse, New York
Joined: August 23, 2004
 WTF are you talking about?


Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)

I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)

Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)

Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)

 

Let me see I can help you guys out here on what GSH is saying., posted on April 10, 2014 at 00:57:38
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 It's written more like a research dissertation or thesis,but if you read it a few times it will make sense.
Even tho many of us here build,design,and modify amps or preamps, and clear sounding music and voices come out the end of a loudspeaker,that doesn't mean we built and tuned it correctly..Often times we will walk into an expensive audio store and listen to an expensive system with say, a big set of Magnepans, or Avant Gardes,or Wilsons, or whatever the case may be, and we think wow,my system at home sounds this good and I don't have nearly the money in it.That's all fine and dandy but the problem is,we don't have a clue whether or not the big system we've just heard in the expensive hifi store is correct or true to the original source it is playing.
We assume it's correct when we rely on what we've heard in sonic tones since our formative years but does that really make us experts in the area of tonal correctness? Then again,many people want to lean on someone else's understanding from a perspective audio magazine to tell them what sounds good but,what makes them experts of right and wrong in sonic presentation? Most of the reviewers are people like ourselves that may have little clue to discern musical accuracy..They may have tested the so called latest and greatest but again,it tells us nothing.
Unless we play instruments like piano,organ,sax,acoustic guitar,drums,or whatever,we can be very oblivious to what a truly top quality music system should sound like.
I think a lot of what GS is saying is this.We really need to grasp the concept of what live,unamplified instrumentation and vocals really sound like and how they are created from a technical stand point.We also need to do this with an amplified source of said instruments and vocals and then,we can get a much better handle on assembling a truly top quality audio system and knowing what it should sound like..I was good friends with Chuck Wingert,the director of the Detroit Symphony orchestra and that's when I learned a lot about correctness in musical persona and how our sonic memory is 10 seconds or less from what we hear in tonal reproduction. Chuck is now deceased but he had ESL 57s stacked with a big folded horn for the bass..He also had the Beveridge
model 3s,and after knowing Mr Wingert for a few years,I learned a lot about musical perception and its dynamic posture and I knew the audio magazines were pretty much FOS along with being whored out to advertisers.
So yes,I agree with GSH because we need to really listen and learn what music really is, from a perspective of those that have an abundant knowledge of music and its creative principles as opposed to getting our education from the audio porn publications.
I hope it makes some sense because I was really sleepy when I had written this.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

I'm a musician and I've been saying this for ages. , posted on April 10, 2014 at 07:21:26
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 Nice post.

 

my new car, posted on April 10, 2014 at 08:27:50
GSH
 Is going to be quite similar to what you've done there actually, for the same and other reasons.

A Beyma TPL-150h will stand in for the compression driver. Here's why:

this is the impedance curve for the Beyma, the response curve is very similar to the TAD and both are quite good.



This is the impedance curve for the TAD (red line):



The mids are JBL 2123H, which are 100db 10" "pro" drivers, also.
Between 200 and 2Khz these are quite flat and only vary in impedance in this range a couple of ohms.

LF covered by JBL 2245H's, which (in the boxes I made) are unassisted FLAT from 500 down to 26hz. I will run them up to 180-200hz or so, and power them separately with an SS amp. I couldn't find an impedance curve for these in the boxes I made, which were designed by a JBL engineer.
I just copied the design.

So, it appears our views on this are quite similar.

 

speakers the weakest link? no Sir... tis the room*, posted on April 10, 2014 at 09:55:17
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Remove the room., posted on April 11, 2014 at 01:48:17
smart845
Audiophile

Posts: 668
Location: East london
Joined: May 24, 2000
 What if the sound is 'greater' than the room, ie. it is so dynamic, dense and deep that it effectively removes the room from the equation as the room impact is not sufficient to impose itself on the music.

Whenever I play music now it behaves as though it 'exists' in the here and now and doesn't appear to follow the room acoustics. I believe it is all about directness and presence, density whatever you want to call it. Everything fresh, alive and present, not some historical artefact.

I put this down to two avenues I've pursued, one is creating a whole house power conditioner following Alan Maher's principals of conditioning everything in the home rather than just one isolated audio power strip. The other you may have guessed is my building an amp with the help of JM and DF.

Just an observation and room for thought. Or am I deluded?

Smart845

 

"one cannot circumvent the immutable laws of physics" to paraphrase PWK*, posted on April 11, 2014 at 04:51:34
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: speakers the weakest link? no Sir... tis the room*, posted on April 11, 2014 at 07:56:38
GSH
 OK, yes I have to agree. So room, speakers and then amp, although quality of source is right up there, perhaps surpassing amp in priorities which makes amp last!

Amps are the easiest thing for me to approach, and so guess what happens ?

That said, in the last 2 years I have made large efforts in the other areas,
including moving to a different house that I wouldn't have picked if it didn't have a "great room", and also the collecting of parts and construction of boxes for what will soon be a new speaker system described
already. I can see that I'll have to get into room treatments, bass traps, damping materials etc.. to optimize the room, and I've already started collecting rugs and thick fabrics for walls to do so. I'm still several months away, as the house is still uninhabitable, (I live in the garage, with no tunes, everything in boxes), but I'll be furthering this process today! And tomorrow! and...

 

This video supports a lot GSH's argument , posted on April 11, 2014 at 20:02:36
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 and it touches on those topics he mentioned.


"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Yes it does, posted on April 12, 2014 at 08:31:50
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 and it should be understood that when JGH says "in the concert hall" he's talking about a purely acoustic concert (no microphones, no PA system).

"This is one field though that one man's opinion is not as good as another's"

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

I was running with my daughter in a 5K today , posted on April 12, 2014 at 08:35:37
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
 There was the usual band there playing at the finish. The guitarist was pretty good, but he was playing through a pedal into the PA. Sounded absolutely terrible despite his playing being acceptable. Amplified music, IMO, is just as hard to get right. I wanted to give him an actual amp to play through or smash his Strat.

 

RE: I was running with my daughter in a 5K today , posted on April 12, 2014 at 08:40:39
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17294
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Amplified music, IMO, is just as hard to get right."

I agree but have to point out that's it's even harder (by a large margin) to determine if it's right(vs. acoustic music).

One never knows just exactly how the player had the knobs (both the tone on the guitar and amp) adjusted.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

For amplified music..., posted on April 12, 2014 at 10:41:15
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2649
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
 the playback source, amplifiers and speakers are part of creating the original musical experience. Frankly, if I had to listen to the same sound quality I am forced to endure at most shows I would not be into audio at all. Most of the PA systems in clubs and arenas are just screamingly loud with horrible, one note bass. A good system allows you to create a musical experience that often was never there in the first place, given all the separate. layered recording techniques.

 

RE: For amplified music..., posted on April 12, 2014 at 11:47:39
GSH
 I agree that way too often a PA is mixed or set up or both, horribly.
Usually way too loud, crunchy, exaggerated etc...It's a foolish version of the more is better thing.

In the past I spent quite a bit of time in Europe, both France and Holland. I was constantly impressed with live electric (and acoustic) performances, even punk rock shows at the Paradiso in Amsterdam, or Elvis Costello at the Olympia in Paris, or Frank Black at Le Zénith. Not only were the systems top notch but "the man behind the curtain" mixing and/or making countless decisions, KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING, and had good ears, musician ears. I think part of this is because the audience in general has a significantly higher listening ability, and this is catered to, rather than catering to a more is better mentality, that so often is cast upon us in the states, to some degree insulting those exceptions in the audience, that there are more of than they think.

 

RE: Remove the room., posted on April 12, 2014 at 15:02:04
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 >>> I believe it is all about directness and presence, density whatever you want to call it. Everything fresh, alive and present, not some historical artefact. <<<

Sounds like you are less interested in recreating a facsimile of the "original" acoustic space and more about bringing the musicians to you - emphasising the music rather than the space in which it was performed.

Enjoy.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: Absolutely correct, posted on April 12, 2014 at 22:36:32
smart845
Audiophile

Posts: 668
Location: East london
Joined: May 24, 2000
 Yes, that's what I like. A performance for me in my room, to form an emotional bond with the artist and performance. How many times do I cry when listening to music? Too many to count.

I don't want a 'history' lesson, don't want to be taken back to an earlier time like Woodstock live, I want it here and now. A time machine.

Sounds like you had a great evening too and if you haven't heard it yet try SOHN, Tremors, it's on Qobuz and is similar to James Blake/Milosh.

Cheers

 

Thanks for tip., posted on April 13, 2014 at 00:35:53
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 Yeah, had a fab night - it is pretty common here, just enjoying music.

I am guessing you read my post before I deleted and re-posted. I had a few things to say, but have decided not to... but for context will repeat some of what was in the deleted post:

Yesterday, I listened to Tycho, Burial, Washed Out, Wild Nothing, Susan Vega, The Raveonettes, Four Tet, and Olafur Arnalds. I pulled down an amp and thought about its rebuild. I drank craft beer and cooked and ate pulled pork. Not once did I think about an objective reference (I have seen Olafur live) or about audio quality or whether what I was doing/ hearing was valid. I simply enjoyed the music and the broader experience for what it was. Hey, I even railed and laughed at Britain and Ireland’s Next Top Model with my partner. It was a fun day.

Perhaps I am not an audiophile - that's fine, I have never defined myself as one.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 15, 2014 at 14:38:07
Retsel
Audiophile

Posts: 1238
Joined: April 17, 2000
 Question about the Karlson speakers, are you running them full range?

I am interested in building a pair of Karlson speakers and using them solely for the bass (50 to 150 or 200 hz). How do you think that they would do in this frequency range?

If you are running them full range, have you thought about providing a midrange speaker (horn or open baffle) and only using the Karlson speakers as bass cabinets.

Is your Karlson cabinet well damped to reduce resonances and cabinet flexing?

Retsel

 

I tend to think we sell our ears short ..., posted on April 16, 2014 at 00:36:13
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
 I'm willing to bet that design philosophies and personal biases aside, most of us here would agree on "good" and "bad" sound when they hear it, even if we can't agree on how to achieve it!

IME, all the audio guys I've come across not only agree on "good" and "bad" sound regardless of their background or musical training but could describe what they hear in a manner consistent with what others are also hearing. I've been amazed how well my friends have remembered what they heard of one another's systems and even describe the differences upon hearing the same system many months later following relatively minor tweaks.

I think, it's just that some of us are better trained at pinpointing what's wrong or right with the sound they hear and translating it in a manner that enables it to be improved.

One thing I do know is that there is no limit to how good it can get. Once we have established a new (hopefully better) reference, it is relatively easy to climb to a higher level.

My 2C,
Naz

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 16, 2014 at 10:40:35
GSH
 Yes full range w/ALtec 604. I wouldn't recommend them for LF only, you can do better there. Maybe 60hz on up.

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 16, 2014 at 23:30:19
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 K15 is an excellent fullrange speaker - he could tune ~1/2 octave lower like Exemplar did using two 3" pvc elbow vents mounted over the nominal 4.5"x9" original vent - the result will support to around 20Hz but won't be any louder than a reflex the rear chamber size with ~28Hz tuning. Another approach would be to make a large "Karlsonator" variant. XRK971 over at Diyaudio can make guesstimates with akabak as to sizing that type.

here's the vent mod for k15 - some boost can be applied at 30Hz - Altec 416 works well


here's the layout of an 8 inch Karlsonator

Karlson Evangelist

 

RE: weak link, posted on April 24, 2014 at 11:52:22
Retsel
Audiophile

Posts: 1238
Joined: April 17, 2000
 How do your Karlsons sound from 50 or 60 hz up to 200 hz?

Retsel

 

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