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tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr.

95.102.13.82
Posted on March 23, 2014 at 10:13:49
Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: March 23, 2014
 Hello

I'm thinking about buying tube amplifier. I would like to ask you for advice to select the appropriate tube amplifier for high quality and realistic listening classical music (mainly large orchestras, symphonies, concerts, ... 19 and 20 century), price in 6 000 USD. The amplifier must have good dynamics and good bass, this is important for listening large orchestras.

I would like to ask:
- is more suitable single ended or push-pull?
- is more suitable amplifier with tubes 300B or 845, eventually which other tubes ?

Yet seem to me suitable Opera Consonance Reference 5.5 or Antique Sound Leyla or JJ322, of course I like to get recommendations. I prefer the dynamic and natural sound with the good space, resolution, micro dynamics, fidelity ... I listen mostly classical orchestral music from LPs (large orchestras).
Now I have Electrocompaniet ECI 2, which is very good. I am afraid that the dynamics and bass by tube amp will be smaller and weaker than has ECI 2, am I right ? Speakers I have 2.5 band with 65 liter bass reflex, made according the project to Zaph|Audio - ZRT - Revelator Tower. Sensitivity have approx. 90 db impedance is 4 ohms . I have upgraded turntable Lenco L75 + arm Jelco SA-750D + Shelter 90X cartridge.
I have a smaller room.

I read a lot of tests, but the personal opinions is important to me.

Thank you for your recommendations and comments, best regards

Milan

 

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RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 23, 2014 at 11:12:12
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 90 dB speakers require a solid state amp. Listen in-home audition, to Boulder, or a used Spectral.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 23, 2014 at 16:18:13
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Without knowing what your your electrical load over the audible frequency range looks like, it's hard to say. When a mfr. gives a nominal impedance, it sometimes mean the lowest and sometimes something of an average. The speaker is the key, here, as much as the amp. If you have sharp phase angles, this can affect dynamics without the power to drive through it. You may need more 50W, which is about what the GM70 can deliver, but there are not many commercial models and the only one I know is over $6K.

So, it's probably high power PP with a really stiff power supply or an SS amp with a modern transistor output stage and they don't come cheap, either. Getting inside the orchestra on the likes of Mahler and Sibelius on extreme passages is not accomplished inexpensively unless you can DIY an amp and speakers, and even then you need a "big" OPT (lots of quality metal), which isn't cheap either.

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 23, 2014 at 16:47:12
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 Others have made the important points so I won't re-iterate

But I will say two things - I prefer zero-feedback SETs for classical symphonic music, and to do that requires more power than expected. My system is 101dB nominal, and it works for me in a modest size room with an 8-watt 300B amp. To get the same level from 90dB speakers would take 100 watts.

The reason SETs need to have excess power is distortion - in my opinion, of course! Large-scale symphonic music is spectrally very dense, so even small amounts of nonlinearity result in too much intermodulation, covering up the inner voices. SETs being free of crossover distortion, they become more linear the lower the signal is relative to the full power signal.

Crossover distortion can be eliminated by operating a push-pull amp in Class A, but most P-P designs, tube or solid state, also have feedback. Feedback pumps distortion energy into higher harmonics which are very much more unpleasant. This is, again in my technical opinion, the reason I prefer to use an SET with lots of headroom.

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 23, 2014 at 23:59:45
Frihed89
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Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 The same is true for SS. More and more amps with sand output stages are going to zero feedback. I guess First Watt led the way.

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 24, 2014 at 01:00:00
Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: March 23, 2014
 Thank you all for your the recommendations.
I'm also a scout for suitable push-pull amp in Class A.
I'll have to try selected tube amp with my speakers.

Milan

 

RE: Why not something in your neighborhood?, posted on March 24, 2014 at 11:52:55
amioutaline?
 KR Audio VA-640 single-ended, 20 Watts with 300 BXLS.

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 24, 2014 at 13:20:35
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 Just a note - not everyone agrees, but to my engineering mind, and to my ears as well, a cathode or emitter or source follower is a feedback stage. It's local, which is better than global, and sometimes it's necessary to get the performance you need. But it's still feedback.

 

Dynamics or tone?, posted on March 25, 2014 at 04:36:51
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4382
Joined: October 20, 2000
 I'm always perplexed by threads like this. I'm a musician, conservatoire trained, and played in orchestras and small groups (jazz etc) for most of my life. When I read that orchestral music is about weight, dynamics and scale this just isn't the reality for me. I think it's delusional to try and fit an orchestra or anything like it into a small sitting room.

But what it is possible to do is to reproduce a different reality - the tone and acoustic realism of the instruments. The woody quality of a clarinet, the shimmer on a cymbal, the breathiness of a flute, the distinctive tone of a Steinway or a Bechstein. These things you can preserve almost intact, and for smaller groups like string quartets and jazz combos you can actually get a pretty good sense of realism. And anyway, orchestral music isn't fortissimo tuttis most of the time - a lot of it is the particular tone of winds playing together, a solo cello, a quartet of horns and so on.

So what I try to do in my system is to do what I can realistically do - recreate the tone and timbre of each instrument so at least that's a constant source of delight. And when you include the voice I have no doubt in my own mind that the ideal is a single ended amplifier with no feedback - could be tube or solid state such as SIT amps. But as Paul Joppa says, not easy to put this into practice without sensitive speakers. For more watts you can go parallel single ended with 300b, use high voltage tubes like 845 etc. It's possible but the amplifiers become more complex and more costly.

The alternative is to give up on sensitive speakers and SETs and use less sensitive speakers. I'd make an equally good case for starting with panel speakers - full range ribbons like Apogees, Maggies and so on. To me nothing recreates an orchestra with all its subtle tone and detail like a big panel speaker. In that case the amplifier needs to supply power, so you're in the realm of PP amps, bigger solid state amps and so on. A good example is the Nagra PP 845 monobloks - they're really good if you find a pair. Or something like it.

Both alternatives will give the kind of tone and timbre that - to me at least - is indispensable in reproducing acoustic classical instruments. Clarity and timbre is achievable. A Mahler symphony in your living room...........

 

Excellent post! nt, posted on March 25, 2014 at 05:14:33
Salectric
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Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 Nt

 

RE: Dynamics or tone?, posted on March 25, 2014 at 06:42:39
Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: March 23, 2014
 Andy Evans, your contribution and recommendation is useful for my choice of amp.
I am choosing amp already approx. 3 months, and I already have in the confusion. I originally thought about Class A solid state amp (probably from Pass Laboratories), then about single ended tube amp - Antique Sound Leyla or Opera Consonance Reference 5.5 (300B in parallel single ended, 18W), ... - they probably have little power to 90 db speaker. According to this thread I now considering a push-pull amplifier in Class A with zero feedback. I prefer listening to symphonies and orchestral works by Shostakovich Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Bruckner, ... and they are very dynamic and need to listen to loud enough.
Milan

 

Thank you!, posted on March 25, 2014 at 07:51:16
HiFiOd
Audiophile

Posts: 707
Location: Oakland, Califonia
Joined: May 30, 2001
 It is good to hear someone with music minded understanding of reproduction, for a change. Most musicians I know appreciate tone more than push-your-chest-in kick drums. Couldn't agree more!

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on March 25, 2014 at 08:22:50
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The best answer I know is to have at least 101 dB sensitivity and use the best SE tube amps with a GOOD supply.

One point five watts will do fine.

90 dB speakers are not for any TUBE amp that is really good...too many compromises required in the amp's basic design.

Put the "big" MBL amps on 90 dB speakers, THEY get the high end almost perfect, and all else too. At a cost.

No, just use 101 dB or more and smell de roses.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Dynamics or tone?, posted on March 25, 2014 at 22:18:11
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "I think it's delusional to try and fit an orchestra or anything like it into a small sitting room."

This is where a nearfield setup, where the soundstage is totally decoupled from the room, is the only way to attain such scenario.... I did this sort of thing back in college to great effect..... Although it was not exactly a system that performed well outside the listening "sweet spot".

"And when you include the voice I have no doubt in my own mind that the ideal is a single ended amplifier with no feedback - could be tube or solid state such as SIT amps. But as Paul Joppa says, not easy to put this into practice without sensitive speakers."

Although there are a select few push-pull amps that might do justice with 90 dB efficient speakers, I think going high-efficiency, roughly 96 dB minimum, just opens up so many more options for amplification. It is otherwise so difficult to get the dynamics of an orchestra right, due to the fact you can only get so much out of an AC mains outlet. (You can get a lot of power out of that outlet, but at the expense of "dynamic linearity".) I've rarely heard 100 WPC driving 90 dB efficient speakers with "dynamic linearity" like I've heard 8 single-ended WPC driving 100 dB efficient speakers.

I don't think dynamics and tone are mutually exclusive. In fact, if the tone is lost, it's probably due to the dynamics perceived as "exaggerated" relative to the real thing. For the higher distortion during dynamic swells/peaks will make them seem "louder" than they should be. (Or in other words, if the music "blasts" during loud passages, the dynamics are not quite there, in regard to linearity.) IMO, this is the most common failing in home sound reproduction, and the most frustrating part of home sound reproduction to get right.

As others have stated here, excellent post. Thank you much.

 

Where's Naz?, posted on March 26, 2014 at 02:56:58
grindstone
Audiophile

Posts: 188
Location: GMT -6
Joined: August 10, 2008
 You out-there?

Not sure of your program material, but I was looking for your 'nym almost as if it was on-cue. Maybe blame Pavlov, too ($&#@! messengers)?

To the OP: Wish I had something to help, but intricacies of Mahler stuff (cough?) are out of my wheelhouse. Good luck, Milan! Please update us on your thoughts/progress, if you can.

Nice thread--don't mind me (for the record, I'd need to like 90dB speakers a LOT to keep them and to not move closer to 100dB jobs, but that's just me/my preferences). Watching with interest.

Thanks to all and please carry-on :)

 

RE: Dynamics or tone?, posted on March 26, 2014 at 08:15:13
Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: March 23, 2014
 From what I've heard (and reproduced live music, quite often I go to opera and symphonic concerts), I do not think dynamics and tone are mutually exclusive. In my opinion the aim of music reproduction is the most faithful approximation of live music in all audio parameters. Last time I heard my reference Prokofiev LP Decca SXL-6620-2 through expensive tube amp + expensive speakers, dynamics were much worse than via my several times cheaper apparatus, as seemed to me that I listen to other LP, music that does not have the dynamics bores me.
Very good site about reproduction of Music are: http://www.high-endaudio.com/ .
I will sometimes inspire by them, I am grateful to the creator for it.

Milan

 

I'm here ...., posted on March 27, 2014 at 04:56:08
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
 Just haven't had much time lately and would've missed this thread if not for a good friend of mine.

Generally, I have to agree with most of what's being said but there's one thing that everybody has missed and that's the fact that most of the power needed to drive relatively inefficient speakers is required for bass. IME, serious low end can demand ten times the power of mids and the ratio is even higher for top end.

I personally wouldn't swap SET for any other topology and it is exactly what you need for real sounding music. There are some damn good speakers out there in the 90db range and if that's what you had and liked them that much then why not couple then to a decent sized SET for mids and highs and rely on a top class sub, powered by SS for the heavy lifting. Classical in particular just isn't the same unless you can move lots of air in the 20-40Hz region and it works wonders for scale.

Of course, clean, three dimensional mids is where the soul of the music lies and this is where SET shines above all else IMHO for realism. But not all SETs are created equal and without good design, decent tubes, PSU, OP tranny and most importantly, zero GNFB (totally agree Paul) SET can still disappoint and be beaten by other topologies.

My speakers are only around 90db. They are huge and seemingly completely the wrong thing for SET, including presenting a difficult load. I run PSE845s that will transit into A2 for approx 75 good Watts and this is enough to fill a huge room. But I run monster, high quality subs at 600W and that makes all the difference. The trick is to keep the subs working below 50Hz with a very steep rolloff above or they will muddy the gorgeous sound of music being reproduced through great SETs. Get it right and you can have your cake and eat it!

Naz

 

RE: I'm here ...., posted on March 27, 2014 at 12:44:45
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 2454
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
 I'm curious how you're limiting the bass extension of the SETs. You using a line level passive crossover or some other arrangement?

 

RE: I'm here ...., posted on March 27, 2014 at 15:45:12
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
 That's a really good question on many fronts.

My speaker system happened to come with a very elaborate SS Crossover which could be configured in several ways. Initially, my source fed the Crossover and it drove my main amps and sub amps separately. But as good as the crossover was it was never going to be as good as feeding the source directly to the main amps for mids and highs, which has been my configuration for many years.

This would be a fairly normal way to add a sub and whilst good ones will have very good control of crossover frequency and even slope, feeding a SET directly to some lower efficiency (full range) speakers still poses a potential problem with power requirements and perhaps even the load the speakers present to the amps to achieve what I'm suggesting. I suspect that this was the point of your question and it's a good one.

There are ways around this without sacrificing the direct connection from SET to speakers. For DIYers like me, I chose to have my SET OP trannies wound to slightly favour high end extension at the expense of low end. I also limit low end extension slightly with my choice of cap value in the OP stage of my source feeding my SETs.

If one wasn't a DIYer another method in a three-way system might be to connect the woofer to the 8 ohm tap and the mid/tweeter combo to the 4 ohm, assuming the amps has taps. If not, perhaps a step down transformer or small value of series R, though this wouldn't be my first choice. Any of these methods are only a good idea if the woofer is crossed over to the mids at a relatively low frequency and is predicated on the fact that no matter what the slope of the LP filter in the sub it will always still add some energy in the mid bass area.

All I've said is only to provide ideas for anyone faced with wanting to run SET but are put off power requirements and speaker efficiency. In most cases none of this would be required and the amps could be simply connected directly to the speakers and in parallel to a GOOD powered sub.

Naz



 

Well put Andy and Todd!, posted on March 28, 2014 at 17:52:24
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 Todd, your comments regarding tone and dynamic linearity are consistent with my experiences also, though I had not really thought about it.

I agree that dynamics and tone are not mutually exclusive; however, accurate tone at live levels in a domestic environment might be. Well, it is at least challenging, expensive... and undesirable in my case. I don't want a system that sounds balanced at live levels then lifeless and lean at levels I normally listen.

My preferences are for ease, musical flow, nuance, convincing tone and vitality... up to a volume level I might listen to a couple of times a year but, but not live levels. This is achievable in a domestic environment using simple systems comprising lowish power SET amps and well-designed efficient speakers.

Thanks for the contribution.

Edits: cleaned up test for improved clarity; added a missing "not"!

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on April 1, 2014 at 06:37:44
jetrexpro
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Joined: April 19, 2010
 My Amp with EML 300bXLS driving Audio Note ANe LX HE in a smallish room and no pre amp plays large scale classical with no problems.

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on April 1, 2014 at 09:49:13
hottattoo
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: New York
Joined: July 30, 2011
 My personal experience has been that life ( dynamics ) begins at 100++ speaker sensitivity. Like most who posted here I went through electrostatic speakers, Maggie's, and various box speakers over the years and while they all had their plus and minus points, high efficiency speakers just sound more real. I have heard the large MBL system, Wilsons, Focals etc. many times at audio shows over the years and while they all have the " pieces " to audio puzzle I find the total presentation lacking and somewhat mechanical. Picking a nice SET amp would be much easier and more rewarding if you have 100++ sensitivity speakers. That is why I have evolved to a 4 way horn speaker system. Just my 2 cents.

 

Zero's?, posted on April 3, 2014 at 17:27:02
Enzo
Audiophile

Posts: 67
Joined: November 20, 2000
 Ever try Zero's with tough impedances Naz? If so, any luck?

 

RE: Zero's?, posted on April 7, 2014 at 20:17:47
Naz
Audiophile

Posts: 2184
Location: Sydney
Joined: September 2, 2005
 Sorry, no I haven't but I have heard good things about them. Not sure if there if it's worth asking the question in a new thread or whether there is anything in the archives?

Naz

 

RE: tube amplifier for classical music,large orchestr., posted on April 8, 2014 at 02:31:56
Milan.Albert@intelsoft.sk
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Joined: March 23, 2014
 Based on here (also elsewhere) the information obtained, I now have in the selection these tube amps:
Audiomat Opera, Opera Consonance Cyber​​-100 15th anniversary, Cayin A-88T MK2 Selection, Cayin 500MK, Ayon Spirit III, Lyric Ti 120, Audio Research CA-50 Octave 70.
If you know them, you can advise me which you think is best for listening to classical music - large orchestra?

Milan

 

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