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Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram...

72.208.143.169

Posted on March 20, 2014 at 23:01:14
jeffreybehr
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...is right here and at the link. It is NOT copyrighted and is NOT a product of Coincident Speaker Technology or Israel Blume.

EDIT 25 March--this is the second version.

Version 2 photo 2014Mar20_Philsschematic2_1500w_zps98932676.jpg

 

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RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 00:27:25
danlaudionut
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Jeff

IF the driver stage is correct
then the interstage is 2:1.
Which would explain why
it sounds so powerful.
A2 peaks would be easy.

The 590V B+ to the 300B is wrong
or it would need a 300B+ tube.
The 300B would run at 47 watts
which is over the rated 40 watts.
More likely the B+ should be 490V
which would give you 32 watts.

DanL



 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 02:42:47
Michael Samra
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Jeff
when you mention C16,that is a 47uf.Did you mean C10? That one is upper left and is 220uf.Is that the one that should be 2.2uf?
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 03:50:25
Salectric
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Dan, what leads you to conclude the IT is 2:1?

The 4.3K load resistor seems wrong too.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 03:57:19
danlaudionut
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Salectric

The 6EM7 will swing almost 240Vpk.
120Vpk is plenty for a 300B.
The 6EM7 has an Rp of 750 so
I think the IT needs the 4.3K load.

DanL





 

Yes, Michael, the 2.2uF decoupler is C10 and not C16. Also, I've measured Voltages..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 12:19:42
jeffreybehr
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...in one of my amps and have new values to post in the schematic. For example, the main-supply rail is 524VDC, not 590, and the 'EM7 rail is 292 and not 345. Voltages on the plates are (left to right) 161, 253, and 502. I'll give all these to my buddy and get and post a new schematic soon. Sorry for the confusion. Might he have measured it without tubes loading the supplies?

I'm still confused/fascinated with the main supply. FWIW, DC Voltages in that supply, left to right, are 547 on the 5U4G plates, 535 at the cathodes, and 527 after the choke and caps. My 'guru' (who is NOT the 'schematicist') thinks there's possibly too much capacitance at the output.

And this clearly illustrates my low level of knowledge in these areas; I'm definitely at the little-knowledge-is-dangerous stage.

 

RE: Yes, Michael, the 2.2uF decoupler is C10 and not C16. Also, I've measured Voltages..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 13:40:04
danlaudionut
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Jeff

>> the main-supply rail is 524VDC

That means the 300B is slightly above 80% dissipation
which is not too bad.

>> possibly too much capacitance at the output.

You have about .7V ripple to the OPT.
IMO That is on the high side.
Best not used on Hi-Eff speakers.

BTW It still loks like a step-down IT.

DanL

PS The C10 should be a 22uFd cap.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 14:58:05
Caucasian Blackplate
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I'd be interested in your opinion of having the 5U4 bypassed.

 

RE: Yes, Michael, the 2.2uF decoupler is C10 and not C16. Also, I've measured Voltages..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:03:04
Michael Samra
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Jeff
If you room have in the amps,I bet you would love a motorun cap power supply..Even the dry film caps are superb.The decoupling can be raised a bit from 2.2uf.Does that use film caps for the 2.2uf?
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Yes, Michael, the 2.2uF decoupler is C10 and not C16. Also, I've measured Voltages..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:05:33
jeffreybehr
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DanL:
"You have about .7V ripple to the OPT. IMO That is on the high side. Best not used on Hi-Eff speakers." Mine are 97dB Serenity Super-7s (linked), and I have not yet noticed any more hum them with the prior poweramps and speakers. I believe my local goodbuddy can measure that. I had a 'scope years ago but sold it before I stuck my fingers where they didn't belong and hurt myself. :-)

"PS The C10 should be a 22uFd cap." My guru, too, thought it was quite small.

 

RE: Yes, Michael, the 2.2uF decoupler is C10 and not C16. Also, I've measured Voltages..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:28:09
danlaudionut
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Jeff

I missed the voltage doubler that
Dave pointed out so I stand corrected.
It has under 10mV ripple which is excellant.

I would replace R3 & C2 with a 1.5V NiMh.
And increase C3 to at least 100uFd.
This will strengthen the lower bass.
Otherwise it looks good.

DanL



 

The 2.2uF decoupler is a film cap (another cheap, edgy-sounding Solen fastcap)..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:43:26
jeffreybehr
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...so I don't know how to answer your question.

I'm thinking about using modern, vegetable-oil-filled MR (370VAC = 522VDC) caps in the main supply. Do you have opinions on if and how the various brands of those sound different? GALCO/GE, CDE, and ASC have caps that will fit, but ASC's are a little long.

 

TYVM. (NT), posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:51:05
jeffreybehr
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.

 

I have no opinion about that, as in I don't even understand your question., posted on March 21, 2014 at 17:57:58
jeffreybehr
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Does 'bypass' in this case mean replace? I understand it functions as a Voltage dropper and a slow-start device for the 300B's plate Voltage.

 

RE: I have no opinion about that, as in I don't even understand your question., posted on March 21, 2014 at 18:43:53
Salectric
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The 5U4G isn't functioning as a slow-start device because it is directly heated. An indirectly heated tube like a 5AR4 starts conducting slowly and the voltage ramps up gradually. But a 5U4G conducts immediately and the full voltage appears without any gradual buildup.

 

Errors in schematic, posted on March 21, 2014 at 18:50:51
Salectric
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Anyone interested in building an amp using the Coincident topology needs to be forewarned---there are a number of errors in this schematic. In addition to the ones pointed out below, 2 of the 3 rectifier bridges are shown connected incorrectly.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 21, 2014 at 18:52:24
dave slagle
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Is this a frankenclone?

I just realized the shouting disclaimer and I don't get it. (and deleted my reply below until there is more info)

do you have the blessing of the designer to discuss this in direct association with the brand (and names) he is trying to build?

dave

 

Shouting? Two NOTs to emphasize what the schematic isn't is shouting?, posted on March 21, 2014 at 20:31:43
jeffreybehr
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You, sir, misread the pronoun and then overstate your case.

The amplifiers are indeed current products of Coincident Speaker Technologies, being Coincident Frankenstein IIs, SNs 003048 and '9, purchased this spring--it comes early in the desert. I asked Blume for a schematic and he declined to give me one...his choice, I suppose. But I own the amps, and I wanted a schematic, and a friend offered to prepare it. So the resulting schematic diagram is now mine, not Blume's. Had he given me one and asked me not to share it, I certainly would have honored his terms. But apparently he thinks it's worth something and decided to not disclose it. His choice is to conceal his diagram and my choice is to reveal mine.

So there it is, right or wrong and whether you or Israel likes it or not.

 

Have you seen the amp? Have you traced and prepared a schematic diagram?, posted on March 21, 2014 at 20:42:38
jeffreybehr
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The guy who did has a doctorate in electrical engineering. That doesn't mean there aren't errors in his work, but I'll trust his work until someone else checks it against my amps.

I know for a fact that one bridge rectifier has only 3 leads on it.

The diagram will be independently verified and corrected; more in a couple weeks.

 

RE: Have you seen the amp? Have you traced and prepared a schematic diagram?, posted on March 22, 2014 at 03:09:39
Salectric
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Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I just wanted to warn anyone coming across this thread in the future not to follow the schematic blindly.

The rectifier connections for the 6EM7 supply and the 5v filament supply are shown incorrectly. The transformer leads are shown going to the + and - output terminals rather than to the AC input terminals.

On the other hand, the 300B power supply's rectifier is shown correctly. The voltage doubler only needs two diodes so the full wave bridge is being used only for two of the four diodes. That's why the fourth terminal of the FWB is left unconnected.

While I have never examined a Coincident amp, these points seem pretty clear just from looking at the schematic.

I am intrigued by the high-voltage supply supply and curious why Blume used the 5U4G. As shown the tube rectifier isn't being used for rectification at all. The amp would work fine with the 5U4G removed and a bypass wire inserted in its place (although the voltage would be a bit higher). I assume the tube was used to add a tube "flavoring" and not just for marketing purposes.

 

RE: The 2.2uF decoupler is a film cap (another cheap, edgy-sounding Solen fastcap)..., posted on March 22, 2014 at 06:59:33
Michael Samra
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You answered it fine..I mistyped when I said or instead of for..That was my typo.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Very interesting, posted on March 22, 2014 at 07:23:16
Metralla
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I am intrigued by the high-voltage supply supply and curious why Blume used the 5U4G. As shown the tube rectifier isn't being used for rectification at all. The amp would work fine with the 5U4G removed and a bypass wire inserted in its place (although the voltage would be a bit higher).

That's quite fascinating.

Regards,
Geoff

 

RE: I have no opinion about that, as in I don't even understand your question., posted on March 22, 2014 at 09:41:38
Caucasian Blackplate
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Yeah, I agree here, and the 300B doesn't need a soft start - it will conduct immediately as well.

 

RE: Have you seen the amp? Have you traced and prepared a schematic diagram?, posted on March 22, 2014 at 11:39:28
sonicboom
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Good catch on the power supply connections. For these two supplies to be wired correctly, the upper right and lower left diodes should be reversed on the existing schematic.

As for the rectifier tube, I would hazard a guess and say that it was probably included in an attempt to reduce/minimize switching noise from the SS diodes.

 

How do they sound?, posted on March 22, 2014 at 13:11:09
Jon L
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Did I miss the posts on how they sound and what issues you are having with them?

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 22, 2014 at 15:58:55
charles1dad
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It's very interesting reading these posts about an amplifier I've owned for 4 and1/2 years and absolutely have enjoyed immensely. I lack the technical background to contribute to this current discussion. What ever Israel Blume did in designing/building the Frankenstein MK II he certainly has exceptional ears IMO. This is one very fine sounding and superbly natural 300b SET amplifier. I can honestly say that it's one of the best amplifiers I've personally experienced. I'll continue to follow this thread and gain some knowledge. His 101D DHT Line stage is excellent sounding as well.
Charles,

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on March 22, 2014 at 16:55:18
danlaudionut
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Charles

I have followed the Frankenstein for years,
as I do not have the money to buy one,
I have played with posibilities of the design.
My "upgrades" do nothing to the operating points
as I believe many say they are voiced quite well.
Increasing C10 to 22uFd will decrease the noise on the first stage.
The 1.5V NiMh will remove an electrolytic from the signal path.
Increasing C3 to at least 100uFd will firm up the bottom end.
Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave.

DanL



 

"Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 22, 2014 at 17:01:33
Tre'
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.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Origin of the Frankenstein Amp, posted on March 22, 2014 at 18:43:22
Rick R
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It was a dark and stormy night (cue thunder and lightening), in a small city in Europe some guys who loved messing around with electronics and glowing tubes decided to build something that did not previously exist. Little did they know that later, “the Frankenstein” (cue the horses winnowing) would be born as a result. Wait, has this story been told before?

The origin of the Frankenstein amp starts with a pair of stock Tektron TK2A3/50M (they might have been called 50/52 amps originally) mono amps made in Italy. These mono amps could use a wide variety of output tubes (including 2A3, 45, 50, 300B and VT52) by using switches to make adjustments.

The original owner, in the LA area, had problems and sent it to Cyrus Brenneman (http://cyrusbrennemanaudio.com) to fix it. Cyrus looked at the schematics and suggested some modifications to the amps to improve it including the use of 6EM7’s as drivers and replacement of the output transformers. The owner had Cyrus make the circuit/tube modification but did not replace transformers. I understand he was a grad student at the time, maybe tight on bucks. Later he sold the amp to someone I know, who got it without any manual. He used 6SL7’s as drivers. It did not work for him so he sold them via Audiogon to me. I loved the idea of output tube switching, and really wanted to try 50’s. I had problems with it; one output transformer buzzed, ran hot and had less power than the other.

I looked for someone near me to fix them and somehow got steered to
Cyrus Brenneman,who lived only about 40 miles away. I took the amps to him and he told me the story of his modifications and said he was not surprised that there was a problem with output transformers. He replaced them and the amp sounded very good. After a few months of trying them with various tubes, including 50’s, I decided I would go back to a dedicated 45 amp. I put them up for sale, and Israel Blume contacted me about buying them. Since I was a big fan of his Coincident Triumph speakers, we worked a swap for a pair of his new Triumph Extreme speakers. So that is how Israel came to have them. Apparently, he did lots of parts swapping and experimentation to get them to be the basis for “the Frankenstein”. I did tell him that Cyrus Brenneman had done the modifications, and I think he ended up contacting him.

So, that is not the whole story. I understand that the amps in question were early versions for the US from Tektron, which had some problems, which were fixed in the final production versions.

So, had the original owner not had one of the early versions of the amp, it would not have had the problems. Had he not lived in the LA area, and would never have gotten to Cyrus Brenneman to make the modifications. And if the second owner got correct info on the drivers, he probably never would have sold the amp to me. And if the original owner had the money to change out the output transformers, I would never have gotten it back to Cyrus. Had Israel not seen my ad, he would never had known about them. And had I not decided to sell the amp and love the deal of swapping for the Coincident speaker, the amps would not have gotten to Isreal Blume.

So what about the schematics – who do they belong to? Since the original amps were made in Italy, design changes made in the US and the final development in Canada, this is a matter for international legal debate. Sorry, I don’t really care.

I think the important thing is people are creative and driven to find, or make, things of beauty – even including audio equipment. I think this applies to Tektron, who makes very cool amps that let you switch out output tubes, Cyrus Brenneman, designer and builder of marvelous amps (I covet his 845 Silver Odyssey amp), and certainly to Israel Blume, who had the vision and determination to develop an amp to match his killer speakers (If I win the lotto I would buy a pair of his Pure Reference Extreme speakers). Cheers to all of them. (cue the lilting theme music)

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 22, 2014 at 18:53:07
charles1dad
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Hello Dan,
Your suggestions for improving the bass is ironic as this is one of the Frankenstein's strengths in comparison to many other SET amplifiers. I don't doubt your wisdom as truly anything can be improved. This amplifier's greatest quality IMO is the natural tone and sense of a living breathing tactile presence. There's much emotion and soul in the music conveyed, the antithesis of hifi.I think you'd like what it does.

 

Some comments in the linked thread., posted on March 22, 2014 at 19:04:48
jeffreybehr
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But what I want them to sound like is better...more transparent, less edgy, less noisy, slightly warmer in tonal balance, etc. I know these desires are vague, but I want them to sound as good as the best parts can make them.

 

Supply's Design ......., posted on March 22, 2014 at 19:12:44
drlowmu
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So, the choke drops 8 VDC across it. Choke is rated 10 HY at 100 mA.

Lets just say amp is doing "about" 80 mA. total.

What is that choke's DCR?

Ohms Law, R equals V over I. 8 volts drop divided by 0.080 A. is 100 Ohms for R. The choke is "about" 100 Ohms in DCR.

What if the total amp current current is 100 mA? What is the choke's DCR? 8 VDC divided by 0.100 A. is 80 Ohms DCR

That 10 HY choke is a key part that "begs" for immediate replacement in that amp, and it would be easy to greatly improve that amp's sonics - doing it with just some good thinking !!

10 HY 80 to 100 Ohm chokes might be O.K. in PREamps .... but certainly not in any audio amp that aspires to high performance.

Chokes in audio amp finals' filters need to be 20 Ohms DCR or less.
Chokes in audio amp finals' filters need to be 20 Ohms DCR or less.
Chokes in audio amp finals' filters need to be 20 Ohms DCR or less.

Also, look at Jeffrey's prior posted photos of the iron. It is ALL "jammed together" such that their fields are interacting. Their positioning, layout, needs to be re-thought and re-arranged.

Jeff Medwin

EDIT, a little more :

LC filter design calculations (choke + 100 uF capacitor)

-> 10 H choke + 100 uF capacitor: smoothing factor of 567.5 or 55.1dBv.

-> 1.5 H choke + 100 uF + 1.5 choke + 100 uF capacitor: smoothing factor of 7106.5 or 77dBv.

Not only is this two stage filter cheaper (even though we have to buy/use another 100μf capacitor), but it provides almost 22dBv lower ripple than the single stage design.

EDCOR XC Series makes a 1.5 HY 17 Ohm DCR choke, small, easy to place below deck, and it weighs under two pounds. Just replace the lead in and lead out with triple TCSS and its OK to use.

An L/C/L/C filter to the finals ALWAYS has sounded more refined in every amp I have A-Bed this in, over the last 32 years...versus one L/C. No contest !!! ALSO, advantageously now-a-days we can actually find under two pound / "under 20 Ohm" inductors.

I just custom designed a new choke last week that has a small magnetic footprint, is under two pounds, and is only 9.5 Ohms DCR at 2 HY !!! It was wound and tested for the first time this past Thursday !!

JM

 

RE: Origin of the Frankenstein Amp, posted on March 22, 2014 at 19:19:00
drlowmu
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Very cool post, thanks for the input !! Enjoyed it.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 22, 2014 at 19:36:16
charles1dad
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Hi Drlowmu,
Those AVVT 32b SL you sold to me via Dennis Fraker are sounding beautiful in my Frankenstein. Your comments on the chokes in this amplifier and the transformer spacing could be right, I wouldn't know (above my head) . The final sonic result is impressive to say the least.

 

Great story, posted on March 22, 2014 at 21:47:56
Metralla
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Thank you for that. I also covet the Pure Reference Extremes (to supercede my Super Eclipse IIs).


Regards,
Geoff

 

Indeed a good story, and TY. Arthur Salvatore relayed..., posted on March 22, 2014 at 22:20:06
jeffreybehr
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...at least some of that in his blurb on the FIIs.

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 23, 2014 at 07:50:04
drlowmu
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Certainly I am glad you are pleased to have those tubes. Honestly, I believe you've never really heard what the AVVT 32B ( or what any Finals tube for that matter ) can ultimately do.

The low end of any amp using a 10HY 100 Ohm choke is no-doubt playing a DEEP low end, but its all sadly out-of-time with the true pace of the music, and in comparison to what could be had - and what was recorded.

You are consistently hearing the music's low end in the "time-frame of a sluggish choke", it is skewed, and NOT in the time frame of the music.

Amps using 100 Ohm chokes are not even mid fidelity. 20 Ohms or less is Hi Fi and 10 Ohms or less is Ultra Hi Fi !!

The very first thing my high fidelity mentor Bob Fulton ( 1925-1988, trumpeter and choir director ) told me about amp building was (1) That you design the power supply FIRST and (2) "That chokes need to be 20 Ohms or less in DCR." This 20 Ohms or less hasn't changed in thirty plus years of me seriously A-Bing this, and it never will !!!

I just today re-read Thorsten Loesch's early article on SE amp design, and guess what DCR number he proposed as being "ideal" for a Power Supply? You got it, in his article he computed, came up with this : "20 Ohms". ( He makes other minor errors about supplies IMHO, but make no mistake, T.L. is really GOOD !!) I think that is hilarious. Fulton, Fraker, Loesch, and Medwin.... whistleing a similar tune !! Dennis intuitively understands ( and executes ) it best of all IMHO.

I hope my comments are unambiguous enough for any and all who read it.
Try to disprove this, you won't and you can't !! We have such amplifier examples existing today, some better than others, both DIY and commercial.

Get "with it" friends. Be there - or be Square.

Jeff Medwin

 

Tube rolling?, posted on March 23, 2014 at 13:35:56
Rick R
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Have you tried tube rolling? Tungsol top getter 5U4G is my favorite for transparent and open sound. I have not heard the latest 300B's, but the older ones I have tried do sound different. AVVT 300B C37 glass are me favorites, but rarely seen on the web these days. I think I tried two different 6EM7's on the Tektrons with little difference in sound quality. I know there are a number of different brands of 6EM7's out there. I also never tried any substitutes, like 6EA7 or 6GL7.

I admit I love tube rolling. Nothing like spending hours listening to music and fooling around with your gear.

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 23, 2014 at 13:46:18
charles1dad
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Drlowmu,
I respect your strong opinion and I don't possess the technical credentials to debate on the merits of the choke in question. As someone who hears live acoustic music very regularly (jazz clubs) I'm intimately familiar with musical pace, timing and flow. Theories aside the Frankenstein is superb in this domain. Be it Monk, Basie, Ellington, Coltrane or whoever there's beautiful musical bass that's wonderfully integrated. Sluggish or ill timing? Not in the least. I've been fortunate to have heard many amplifiers both SET and push pull ovrr the years. I'll place the Frankenstein among the upper most tier.
Best Regards,

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 23, 2014 at 19:06:59
drlowmu
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Hi,

I also TOTALLY believe you and your listening experiences !! Listening like you do is more important than technical knowledge.

The only divide I can see between us is, that you have probably never heard the type of amp and supply I am discussing, so you don't quite grasp what I am talking about with your actual experience.

I have extensively heard both types of amps and supplies, so it is easier for me to offer an experienced description.

Jeff Medwin

 

Seems I've been accumulating version of all-3 tubes., posted on March 23, 2014 at 21:20:55
jeffreybehr
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The 'EM7s are a bit confusing in that apparently identical tubes are branded differently, so I now separate them by plate color and type...for instance gray/gray, gray/black, black/gray, black/black, black/black-Ts, etc. Have NOT formed any opinions on SQ.

In 300Bs I have pairs of original Shuguang Treasures, new Psvane TII-series, Gold lion PX300Bs, new EMLs, used JJs, and a trio of Sophia Golden Princesses.

I have many different types and brands of 5U4Gs. The closest I can get to 'top getters' are two almost-identical ones with a D-shaped getter hanging from a wire off the top mica; they're branded Westinghouse and RCA. The most-complicated-looking 5U4Gs, with what appears to be reinforced top micas, etc., are two Sylvanias, one labeled 'U. S. NAVY C.H.S. SYLVANIA' and a commercial version labeled with more-modern-looking green ink.

Again, I haven't formed opinions of SQ on any of these; I just install them, make sure they work for a day or week, and put the next pair in.

 

RE: Seems I've been accumulating version of all-3 tubes., posted on March 24, 2014 at 11:39:14
Rick R
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: San Diego
Joined: June 24, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
September 22, 2003
It certainly sounds like you have the tube rolling covered. Now all you need is the time to do the listening.

Lights low, glass of wine in your hand, eyes closed - Nora Jones sitting at her piano 10' in front of you. Totally cool. Just don't forget to take notes.

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 24, 2014 at 16:45:32
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
Hi Drlowmu,
I only referenced live acoustic jazz as I hear it so often and it's my template for true and natural sound (what's better than that). My ears have become calibrated to this over many years (plus we have a piano in our home). How ever it accomplishes it the Frankenstein gets closer to this live sound than any other so far. Tone, timing, rhythm, on and on. I'd be curious to hear the amps you're referring to and determine if I'm missing something. As of now it is musically fabulous and quite involving.
Thanks,

 

If I drank any of the wine, there'd be no notes, there would be naps. :-), posted on March 24, 2014 at 19:12:00
jeffreybehr
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Posts: 5718
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Joined: December 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
December 13, 2004
BUT...recommend a Nora Jones album for me. I love traditional small-group jazz, Diana Krall, even Rosanne Cash, and 'natural' recordings. The latter means NOT closely mic'd and NOT in my face. I listen to CDs, SACDs, and DVD-As, stereo and MC.

 

charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 24, 2014 at 19:13:59
jeffreybehr
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Posts: 5718
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Joined: December 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
December 13, 2004
.

 

RE: charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 24, 2014 at 19:58:22
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
Jeff,
I have the Coincident Total Eclipse II (with Duelund CAST capacitor on the tweeter). 94db and 14 ohms load, the amp drives these very effortlessly. I also have the Coincident Statement Line stage, the synergy of the three siblings is superb.

 

RE: "Actually all three will benefit the bottom 1/2 octave." +1 (nt), posted on March 25, 2014 at 08:32:26
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Hello,

I can see you really THINK you have it all covered. But you don't.

Its time, this summer, for you to visit Yellowstone National Park with your family, and also drag your amps and program material over to Dennis Frakers' place in Livingston, MT, so you can hear what I am alluding to.

Jeff Medwin

 

"Come away with me", posted on March 25, 2014 at 10:03:30
Rick R
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Location: San Diego
Joined: June 24, 2002
Contributor
  Since:
September 22, 2003
"Come away with me" - One of my favorite test CD's. I can tell a lot about the presentation, detail, bass and richness by listening to this. Also, it really helps to have the pleasing music to use as a test, since you play it over and over and over again.

 

RE: charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 25, 2014 at 10:19:39
Vincin
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Joined: October 14, 2005
Hi,

The amps being discussed are very good and and also priced reasoanbly, they are certainly not the last word in the SET world, nor they are at the technology forefront of what can be done to a 300b amplifiers to max their sound potential.

If interested you can do a research in the Tube DIY or various other sites. Reading people like Dclowmu and his passion on power supplies, layout, wiring and parts selection can be very interesting and entertaining (taking everything with a grain of salt please!). He and a few other people actually got non-tech guy like me interested in DIY and started to build my own amplifiers, and Im glad I did because my amps now (adopted a lot of things discussed & tried by those more seasoned DIY veterans) sound a lot better than the commercial products of the famous brands i used to own and have listened to. In a general having no price point marketing as the limiting design factor, people can build way better 300b amps than the average commercially available products (your amps included).

So if you want to further your horizon and do not wish (like me) to burn a few tens of thousand bucks at a time with the latest amps reviewed in the magazines, then consider DIY. I wouldn't say it will be less costly in the long run (its actually cost me alot more to DIY) but its alot more fun and the best thing for me has been to escape from the shitty brainwash marketing of the magazine and online review sites. Knowing what options availble that sound good to me and get to build and enjoy them myself cannot be bad.

Just some thoughts.

 

RE: charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 25, 2014 at 13:53:20
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
Vincin,
Fair points you introduce. I've notice on forums like this there's often a pro DIY slant, the DIY guys do it better than the commercial builders. I'm in cline to believe yes in some examples and no in others. I'll never claim my Coincident SET is the best ever (how could this be verified anyway?) but it has served me extremely well and I'm grateful for that. It brings music to life and is superbly natural. I'd loved to hear your amp and the Serious Stereo amp as well. I don't know that you or Dennis Fraker are any more or less talented than Israel Blume, everyone has their own opinion and bias. If I could hear these three compared I'm sure it would be enlightening and also fun.Vincin what aspects of your SET do you find superior to the Frankenstein and did you actually compare them? Thanks much,
Charles,

 

RE: charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 25, 2014 at 15:49:43
Vincin
Audiophile

Posts: 200
Joined: October 14, 2005
Um... Maybe I should have put it like this: it is relatively not difficult to diy an 300b SET amplifier which can be on par with any commercial amplifier available outthere. And once got to this level having accumulated just enough technical background and diy skills, a new horizon of options and opportunities open up to the builder to take the sound of his system to a completely new level that is tailored made to the builder's own taste and that is very difficult to achieve with the commercial gears.

Of course Im not good at this. Thats why Im still reading those guys over the diy forum, learn and try a thing or two at a time. Some of these people are really as advanced as any gurus in the industry like the gentlemen you named.

Never meant this to be a my amp is better than your thingy. I heard the mono blocks in discussion here. I stated that they were very good and were very reasonably priced. But they can definitely be improved upon. Ideas can be found all over the other forums. Do the manufacturer knows these, of course they know but they have got to make product that sells. The amps you have must be one of the better efforts from the manufacturing and marketing perspectives.

In fact the amps Im listenning to at home are somewhat similar to yours in that they are mono block utilising an interstage transformer to couple the driver valve to the output. However, there is only 2 amplifying stages, a triode wired pentode valve and the 300b (more to do with taste rather than being technically superior to your 3-stage all triode amp). The power supply is hugely over-spe'd, choke input LCLC filter for HV supply, separate filament transformers for 300b filament feeding a choke input LCL filament supply. The Interstage transformers and OPT are some of the best that I could lay my hands on. The other boutique parts like capacitors, resistors and silver wiring I also use but they are just icing on the cake and wont impact sound significantly.

Recently Im experimenting with different bias arrangement, and beginning to understand the importance of good layout and wiring and how the circuits interact. Im gonna make new chasis and build my linestage and amplifier from scratch again. I know a lot of people are more or less on the same journey. It has been alot of fun.

I say all this is because when I see people raving about their gears using audio magazine invented terms and expressions, i just feel the urge to make a sound that there are different options out there and relying on certain manufacturers to make certain choices for you may not be the best choice in this hobby. A few years ago I thought about my Audio Note amplifers the same like you think right now. Still with due respect to the said brand, I think very differently these days, I no longer slave my needs to certain commercial brands, products amd reviewer's opinion. And to me I enjoy this hobby much more because of that.

Cheers.

 

RE: charles, what speakers do you use with your Frank-IIs? (NT), posted on March 25, 2014 at 17:41:41
charles1dad
Audiophile

Posts: 157
Location: michigan
Joined: January 2, 2009
Vincin,
You're obviously very proud of and pleased with your amplifier and that's sincerely a good outcome. I agree there's no reason to make this a my amp vs your amp issue, that is a waste of time. Yep, I'm quite happy with my amplifier and if there are some other SET amps that are better, then that's more good news. I'm not sure what is meant by "invented terms". In audio the vernacular by nature is descriptive and expressive and most folks will understand the attempted communication. It's fair to say our respective amplifiers are serving us very well. As for me that's the desired goal. I've come accept that no matter what you own someone is out there to say what they have is
even better and so it goes. I imagine that your amplifier sounds wonderful.
Regards,
Charles,

 

RE: Very interesting, posted on March 26, 2014 at 00:26:05
Goetz
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: Hamburg and Gdansk
Joined: December 24, 2012
The tube rectifier creates a softstart behaviour as well, and aside of its sonic flavour it extends life of the valuable tube !
Cheers
Götz

 

RE: Very interesting, posted on March 26, 2014 at 06:39:30
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
That would be true of an indirectly heated rectifier like a 5AR4 but not a directly heated one like a 5U4G. This was discussed elsewhere in this thread.

 

Vincin, , posted on March 26, 2014 at 10:52:03
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Hi,

You speak to the heart of the matter. This IS a DIY audio forum. It IS possible, and really a lot of fun, for DIYers to make really good amps !! Like you, I am a NON EE type of guy.

My take on a 300B amp was to use a AVVT 32B and do a two stage ( of course!!) with a 12BZ7 direct coupled into the Finals, and it had a LOW DCR modern supply, all iron under 10 Ohms, including the custom power transformer.

The amp unfortunately did NOT power my intended load ( FMI 80s ) so I sold the AVVT 32Bs and converted the amps to 2A3s, used higher efficiency speakers.

I enjoyed your posts sir !!

Jeff Medwin

 

Balanced, revealing clarity, like a 45... Thank You*, posted on March 27, 2014 at 04:22:28
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on July 4, 2016 at 18:20:26
Genp
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Not far from Montreal
Joined: February 19, 2016
Hi. I don't want to revive an old thread but searching with "6EM7 300B" brought me here...
That discussion is very interesting, however:
The anode current is around 15mA for 6EM7 (section 2). This is pretty low or I missed something?
Since the IT seems to be 2:1 could a 1:1 be used? Does it need changes in the circuit?
BTW I won't use the same power supply (low DCR for chokes...I didn't know that). Also, I intend to run 300B with lower current.
Thanks

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on July 5, 2016 at 10:43:00
Genp
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Not far from Montreal
Joined: February 19, 2016
6DR7 could also do the job I guess. Less plate dissipation for both units but is noval 9 pin min. type.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on July 10, 2016 at 14:14:39
hennfarm
Audiophile

Posts: 535
Location: Oregon
Joined: October 8, 2008
Giant capacitor input on input/driver supply= no good. Otherwise nothing fantastic or new about the "design". JH

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 00:37:52
Johno
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Joined: June 9, 2002
Well I've mucked around with a very similar cct & would change a couple of things but just my 2c worth.

1-The low gain portion of the 6EM7 used as the IT driver is running at 13.5ma, this is too low. Of course it depends on the standing current capability of the IT but I found 25ma of plate current to be more fulsome sounding. Doubling the current will still only have the valve running at 60% plate dissipation.

2-Found the high gain portion of the 6EM7 as a input valve to have too much gain & also a bit bland sounding. Swapping to a 6J5 which requires an additional valve & LC coupled at 160V P-k @ 10ma to the second section. 6J5 can also be run on common 6.3V AC heaters with 6EM7. Way better sounding more character & a lower noise floor ie hum at spkrs was a bonus.

Cheers Johno.

 

RE: Coincident Frankenstein II schematic diagram..., posted on July 11, 2016 at 11:29:08
Genp
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Not far from Montreal
Joined: February 19, 2016
Why not a 6SN7 for both channels?

 

This is a reverse engineered schematic of someone else's work?, posted on July 27, 2016 at 13:35:52
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
OK for you to have and use for your own amp but, I think that it is unethical to publish it on the web whether it is legal or not. Using his name in relation to the schematic at least suggests that is what you did.

 

RE: This is a reverse engineered schematic of someone else's work?, posted on July 28, 2016 at 07:04:55
Genp
Audiophile

Posts: 57
Location: Not far from Montreal
Joined: February 19, 2016
Dave Slagle thinks the same way. However I feel a bit guilty because it was an old thread ( march 2014) and got here after a search. But I didn't want anybody having bad feelings about it.

 

RE: Supply's Design ......., posted on July 29, 2016 at 09:14:18
I am not so sure if the voltage drop of the 10H choke is 10vDc. Just because direct after the rectifier we have no real dc, just an alternating dc.
Probably we have a lot more current than 100mA also because the capaciter will have an ac current too.

Anyway it is a bad way to make a ripple free dcV. High voltage spikes for the rectifier tube and also to much current for the rectifier beacause of the high capacity load.

Please similate the circuit in Duncan psud2: http://www.duncanamps.com/psud2/

 

RE: Supply's Design ......., posted on August 10, 2016 at 17:42:40
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
I love the story of the origin of the amp. I hope it is true, as the company president makes such a big deal about designing each and every item, which struck me as being very unlikely.

My experience is that when someone really stresses, repeatedly, that he designed something, the less likely it is true. Real designers have a different manner usually, are wired differently, and I did not "get" this guy designing all the equipment plus speakers.....

 

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