Seeking A 1970s Expert

RE: Seeking A 1970s Expert , posted on March 25, 2015 at 12:22:07
mkuller Audiophile Posts: 38130 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003	...shoot. Or you can email me.

I'm also available as a backup if needed. . . nt, posted on March 25, 2015 at 16:02:55
dwill123 Audiophile Posts: 2162 Location: Philadelphia Joined: September 7, 2003	.

Better hurry, posted on March 25, 2015 at 16:42:12
LWR Audiophile Posts: 66808 Location: The woods Joined: August 12, 2003	before we forget even more!!

Tryouts for..., posted on March 25, 2015 at 16:45:29
mkuller Audiophile Posts: 38130 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003	...a music trivia team?

OK - Here's the Slippery Question, posted on March 25, 2015 at 17:49:22

Mike Porper
Audiophile

Posts: 1414
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 28, 2009

Ok. Here's the deal. It's a bit subtle, and so far, the only people that get it were in their early 20s in 1975 - but back then; no longer today.

Boz Scagg had just released his album, and "Lowdown" was being played all over the place. Rockers hated it. It was just more corporate funky trash. It wasn't prog; it wasn't straight ahead rock. It wasn't metal. It wasn't Robin Trower Bridge of Sighs.

So far, so good. However, if you could get beyond that, you could like it as funk, or funk inspired music. But, that didn't work, cause "Lowdown" was the only tune like that on the album. The rest was a mish-mash of styles, so that if you bought the album for music in the style of "Lowdown" you were let down. And, if you listened to the rest of it, you just got mediocre shabbiness.

For contrast, another record that shot up to popularity at the time was George Benson's "Breezin", which, although it may've upset jazz purists as a betrayal, was a consistent effort, with all of the tunes on the album in a style of of high quality within that style. Know what I mean?

So, I've always been puzzled by the huge sales of Scaggs's album.

But, even more puzzling, in a more subtle way, was Steely Dan's album, which came out the next summer - "The Royal Scam".

I should say that in my personal hierarchy, it stands as the Dan's very best. Just my opinion.

But, here's the hard part. Before "Scam", the Dan's records also suffered from a lack of consistency, both in terms of style and quality. With the possible exception of "Pretzle Logic", the albums sound slapped together, as if the songs were recorded at different times, by different composers and musicians, and even in different studios. "Ecstasy" seems to suffer the most.

"Scam" sounds super coherant to me. Finally, a clear vision. But, what struck most of us rocking types was the influx of funk influences. You hear it right away on "Kid Charlemaigne". Hearing that, the first reaction of a 70s twenty-something typical rocker was, "What the hell's that garbage?".

Speaking personally, while I didn't think it was garbage when I first heard it, I did wince at the funk in it, though I very quickly grasped the high quality of the music afterwards.

So, that's my question. How did you come to terms with the funk influences in Dan, and how did you accept Scaggs.

Thanks for your thought.

OK - Here's my Slippery Answer..., posted on March 25, 2015 at 21:08:22

mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003

...everyone likes different music so it all comes down to your taste.

This is toward the end of the classic rock boom, Motown had faded and disco was on the rise. Frampton Comes Alive and Boston are all over the rock stations. The radio is filled with Top 40 type pop music and even George Benson gets in the act.

Let's take Silk Degrees first - I was in my late 20s in 1976 when it came out and it's still one of my favorite albums.

Boz' album was a brilliant mix of different styles - it has a heavy bass and drum line on nearly every song along with some great horns - there are a couple of rockers (Lido and Jump Street) and a couple of ballads. It had something for everyone - you could dance to Lowdown, or the reggae beat of Love Me Tomorrow, make out to Harbor Lights or We're All Alone Now and just enjoy everything in between.

It's simply great music.

As for Royal Scam, it's my 3rd favorite of Steely Dan album (after Aja and Gaucho) and one that does seem to have a more coherent theme and style. But it, too, crosses over styles with Larry Carlton's strong guitar lines on Charlamagne and Don't Take Me Alive. I think they were much more influenced by jazz than disco - wasn't Aja their next album?

Scam was good but didn't seem that different to me. There is a heavy bass line on a couple of songs but I wouldn't call it funky.

I don't know who the "70s twenty-something typical rocker" is, but I guess it wasn't me. I've always liked Hendrix, Cream, Zeppelin, Mountain and the rest but could appreciate different styles like Jethro Tull for example.

What's wrong with funk? I even like a lot of the funky disco numbers today on the list below that I didn't care for back then.

I think you are putting a lot of weight on these two albums and ignoring a lot of the disco and funk influence in music back in 1976.

1976 Billboard Top 100

Well Done Mike, posted on March 25, 2015 at 21:43:30

LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 66808
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003

And I liked all of SD's output. In the studio these guys were perfectionists. Sometimes razorcutting and reassembling the tape every inch or two. I know because we did a bit of stuff that was put into their albums (1/13th studio owner). Drove my engineers nuts. But the end output was perfect....
As for Boz, after watching him at the gigs in SF with Steve Miller and seeing his dynamic and super guitar playing and word play I never have had any problem at all as he worked on/to develop his chops/sound.
I find it impossible to drop back 45 years and second guess talent/taste/chops/influences/or any of it.
However, not that this is not an interesting subject or maybe a conundrum!
I just am unable to, nor am I interested in trying to diagnose what made these folks tick...

RE: Well Done Mike, posted on March 25, 2015 at 22:48:10

FenderLover

My favorite Dan album is "Katy Lied." "Dr. Wu" from that album.

"Ricky Don't Lose That Number" is my most favorite tune. Great guitar riffs. Many of their tunes have great riffs.

Those Guitar Passages, posted on March 26, 2015 at 08:34:53
Mike Porper Audiophile Posts: 1414 Location: Chicago Joined: December 28, 2009	SD really seems to have had a knack for getting the best playing out of their musicians. Besides the ones you've mentioned, I've always been inpressed by the solo guitar passages in "My Old School". Very discpined, very skilled, yet so inventive.

Rockers, Disco, & Disco Demolition, posted on March 26, 2015 at 09:09:13

Mike Porper
Audiophile

Posts: 1414
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 28, 2009

Thanks for your reply and answers. I guess I understand the appeal of Boz Scaggs a bit better now.

I know that funk was in air in 1975, and disco was getting more and more popular, but it wouldn't reach it's final and most wide spread stage until 1979 - right up to Steve Dahl's infamous "disco demolition" in the Chicago White Sox Comiskey Park, which managed to coalesce all of the hatred against disco, with the result that disco's popularity plummeted shortly thereafer. New disco releases slowed, then stopped, and disco was done. In popular music history, as well in history generally, the period that followed is particulary interesting, and one of which most people are unaware. I may post a thread on it sometime, and get your input and ideas.

But, back to the main point here. Most of us hated disco. I was working in an audio store at the time, and, of course, music was playing all the time, all over the place. It used to just sting to have to hear "Fly Robin Fly" [and the rest of that disco album]...every...single...morning.

Motown was a different story. The current love for Motown wouldn't really form and take hold until [curiously enough (but I know the actual reason why{future post})] the mid 80s. But, the Motown style by 1975 was dead and gone, replaced by either the new funk, such as was being played by Curtis Mayfield, etc., or replaced by disco.

SD was a rock band, although, as I'd mentioned previously, it was hard to nail down their exact style prior to "The Royal Scam". In the albums prior to "Scam" they gave little hint of any funk leanings. Suddently, out comes "The Royal Scam" around the summer of 1976, and ---pow--- there're are all of the funk influences. Funk rhythms, congas in "Kid Charlemaigne", etc., etc. To many rockers, the whole thing was baffling. To some, it seemed like a betrayal. Were they "selling out" to the funk/disco crowd? Hmm, not quite, since there wasn't anything that was solidly funk or disco on the record. Then, what? What the heck was it all about? That was my question back then, and it's still my question today.

Today, of course, we hear things differently because we've been exposed to so much. As always, what's new and shocking in its time, becomes common place and even pace later.

Thus, from the point of view of the release that followed less than a year later, "Aja" and their final album "Goucho", both of which synthesized jazz so seamlessly into their style, "Scam" may be seen as the first step along the road. I think. Maybe.

Anyway, that's why I solicited your opinions. Thanks for taking the time to have a look.

RE: Well Done Mike, posted on March 26, 2015 at 10:09:41
Hornlover Manufacturer Posts: 2529 Joined: March 8, 2002	I guess I'm in the minority, but I didn't like Boz Scaggs, and I never warmed up to Steely Dan. Just too boring. They were popular, though!

Very interesting thread - thanks!!, posted on March 26, 2015 at 10:18:45

rlw
Audiophile

Posts: 3347
Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL
Joined: August 29, 2006

I suppose I qualify, age-wise, to join in. Born in 1955, 20 years old in '75. And a heavy duty rocker and prog head who loved Led Zep, Stones, Tull, Trower, Pink Floyd, ELP, Grateful Dead, etc., etc.

I think that Steely Dan prospered because their music cuts across many genres without solidifying on any single one. You definitely hear funk, jazz, and some world beat along with some astonishing rockin' licks. Bodhisattva and Reelin' In The Years have some of the tastiest guitar playing I've ever heard.

The fact that they almost never toured added to their mystery. As a side note, I see they are touring this year and ending up near me at the Cruzan Amphitheater, West Palm Beach in August - might have to pony up for that one!!

I was fortunate enough to see them waaaaay back when, right after they released Katy Lied in 1975. It was a *phenomenal* show, the sound quality was superb, as expected. And this was about when the evil that was Disco was really starting to take hold. Steely Dan did give a nod towards disco, as did almost every band that wanted to sell records in those daze. Who can forget the drek that The Stones and Rod Stewart put out during that time period?

So, I was okay with SD simply because they kept it fresh and their musicianship and production values were second to none.

As for Boz Scaggs I really could not stand his stuff and it simply amazed me that he was so popular. I think in most ways this was because of the "chick" influence. If you wanted to get laid back then, you went to discos, wore horrific pants and shirts, and you listened to the shit that was disco because that's what the girls liked. And every man among us has sold his soul for a piece of ass now and then, me included.

And while my ears were cringing, Uncle Wiggly was a *very* happy fellow...[g]
-RW-

RE: Seeking A 1970s Expert , posted on March 26, 2015 at 10:35:27

Mike B.
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Posts: 26352
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
Since: September 1, 1999

I was in my mid to late 20's during that period. Like others, I feel the period was a musical renaissance. We busted out of the shadows of our parents in the 1950's and it grew from there. Just think of all the different musical types we accepted and embraced. Music from India, and many of the old Blues musicians were brought out of obscurity. Boz had name recognition as the guitarist for the Steve Miller Band. He just opened another door with his solo IMO.
I have never looked at the Steely Dan albums as being organized or not. You must realize Becker and Fagan were taskmasters with a concept. They went through a number of lineups. I remember reading a article where Jeff Skunk Baxter talked about them breaking guitar player's humps. He referred to how they pushed them and kicked them to the curb if they didn't meet there expectations.
I don't see a problem with your take. We had so much good music to choose from and satisfy our tastes during that period.

RE: OK - Here's the Slippery Question, posted on March 26, 2015 at 11:01:04
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15518 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	Both examples are a brilliant mix of styles.

RE: Seeking A 1970s Expert , posted on March 26, 2015 at 11:04:31
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15518 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	Another thought; Regard the Dan, the "Scam" was a warm-up for 1977's "Aja". This album crossed many boundries and real Jazz critics sat up and took notice. It is the perfect mix/blend of Pop rock & Jazz, IME.

RE: Seeking A 1970s Expert , posted on March 26, 2015 at 17:15:37
Mike B. Audiophile Posts: 26352 Location: OR Joined: September 27, 1999 Contributor Since: September 1, 1999	I guess I need to pull them and listen again. The only odd ball is thrill. Very pop oriented with a mostly one off lineup. I suppose it gave them enough credibility to carry on and advance their music.

royal scam=funk. bernard purdie=funk. (nt), posted on March 27, 2015 at 06:55:06
elblanco Audiophile Posts: 3486 Joined: August 20, 2004	J

The Dan, posted on March 29, 2015 at 09:08:14
tbcblues Audiophile Posts: 1958 Location: OKLAHOMA Joined: May 22, 2002	Fagen and Becker were craftsmen - almost to a fault, but they left us with some fine tunes - my favorites are King of the World and Third World Man. Never cared much for Boz Scaggs, too lame for me.

Revisionist history....., posted on March 30, 2015 at 21:10:37

viridian

I was born in '57. So I was certainly there. Skaggs was pop music. "Pop" as in "popular". Although there was the slightest hint of jazz and funk in what he was doing he was, primarily, an excellent pop vocalist. Pop then, as now, really needs no explanation. It makes one feel good, has a solid beat, and is not too challenging.

Benson became a vocalist, but had made a brilliant succession of albums first as an instrumental jazz side man and then as a progressive jazz instrumental leader. At one crystal moment it looked like Benson was the linear successor to Montgomery and even Szabo. Through the distorted lens of history that probably never came to fruition, though the influences are quite clear. And you can hear the echoes of Christian and Reinhardt in those earlier recordings as well.

As great as The Royal Scam is , it was overshadowed in its day and was little more than a footnote at the time of its release. It has taken on a greater gravitas in recent times much like the New York Dolls, IMHO, of course.

RE: OK - Here's the Slippery Question, posted on April 5, 2015 at 16:30:11

Daryl Zero
Audiophile

Posts: 742
Location: Southwest
Joined: July 9, 2004

I am a tiny bit younger and would have been 12 in 1970.

I did buy a Steely Dan guitar book and there was some discussion in it about the unusual chords that they used. Based upon that book and my humble opinion, Steely Dan's influence is not so much "funk" but "jazz" which is apparent in the chords they play and the keyboard parts. They also moved in that direction and away from rock (to my dismay) in Aja and so forth. Became, at least to me, kind of a lounge lizard act.

As to Boz Scaggs, I thought what was going on their was a form of the "blues" which was made more popular in form. I don't have a lot of opinion on this because it was mainly popular radio pablum although I could tell it was better crafted than a lot of shit being played on the radio at that time.

If I recall correctly, around that same time Steve Miller's Fly Like an Eagle was a big radio staple as well.

Steely Dan, posted on April 7, 2015 at 16:23:19
TGR Audiophile Posts: 3002 Location: No. California Joined: March 22, 2004	I was 20 in 1973....and a big Steely Dan fan. In my personal pantheon of Steely Dan records....Countdown to Ecstasy ranks as #1. The Royal Scam is my least favorite. Can't Buy a Thrill #2. Katy Lied #3. Aja and Pretzel Logic tied for #4. Lost interest in them thereafter.

Rocky Road

Seeking A 1970s Expert

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