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Are we taking things alittle to far!

172.175.33.21
Posted on November 23, 2002 at 11:42:56
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 Cryo Treatments
$50K Cables
$1K PC's

I was wondering if anyone has an opinion of things in Audio that really are taking things alittle to far?Tweeks,Speaker Systems,Amps ,Measuring Equiptment and Components.

I have not done research into it,but I think the Cryo stuff is taking it really to far.Ted Williams might disagree!

The battle of Cable naysayers is one.I do not dispute Cables having a diff ,but then speanding in excess of a few grand is like throwing $$ in the wind.JMO

What things have you found that really just make you say ,"What kind of stuff have these guys been on to make them ask this much for that or this certainly is not worthy of consideration for an Improvement in Audio.Just does not make sense that this or that would work,but they have the nerve to ask people for $$ for it.

Any Comments!

 

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I will post this at the GENERAL BB!nt, posted on November 23, 2002 at 11:45:41
NEAR SOTA
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 nt

 

What is Cryo???, posted on November 23, 2002 at 16:09:13
Robert Hamel
Audiophile

Posts: 1905
Location: New York
Joined: October 24, 2002
 I am assuming its a cold soak of some kind?? Please fill me in.

Thanks

 

Re: What is Cryo???, posted on November 23, 2002 at 18:36:59
NEAR SOTA
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Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 Cryogenicly treated Cables.

What people are doing is sending their cables to labs that use either Liquid Oygen or Nitrogen to freeze their Cables which is suppose to improve the structure of the conductors and help in the transfer of electrons which inturn improves the quality of the playback.

A few people swear by it!

 

COOL!, posted on November 24, 2002 at 08:11:20
Robert Hamel
Audiophile

Posts: 1905
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Joined: October 24, 2002
 I have acess to a 10,000 Lb tank of N2. We do a lot of hi vac where I work. Sounds like a business oportunity to me. What do they charge for this??? I can charge $100 for a pair and be inexpensive compared to the other guys!! Im in!!! Think I will try my own first to make sure the insulation survives the plunge. Why not use dry ice?? Not cold enough??

If it really makes a diference any of the cable manufacturer's doing wire reels in bulk?? Any military applications doing this?? Any research groups doing this??

 

Cold!, posted on November 24, 2002 at 09:25:55
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
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 I am just trying to find out about it.Has my attention anyways!

 

How far is "too far?", posted on November 24, 2002 at 11:22:37
Norm Strong
Audiophile

Posts: 583
Location: Seattle WA
Joined: September 21, 1999
 Clearly, SOTA regards a few grand as still reasonable. I regard anything over $1/ft. as absurd. "A few grand" is going from the absurd to the ridiculous. But that's just me.

Some audiophiles, who are happy with their systems, don't believe it's possible to obtain that level of performance with bulk Home Depot speaker wire. They're entitled to their beliefs, and so long as fraud isn't involved, I see no reason for criticism.

 

Re: How far is "too far?", posted on November 24, 2002 at 16:17:17
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 been there and done my testing to see or hear a diff..To tell the truth I do not think I would spend that much $$ on cables,but for those who have the $$ then I think it is not out of the question.

Will not go into what is worth it ir not!Try IC's between your CDP to Pre-Amp to see if there is a diff..

 

I am amazed at the cost., posted on November 25, 2002 at 08:24:40
John Escallier
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Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 Liquid nitrogen is less expensive than beer. That's what the big push for high temp superconductors is all about; liquid helium runs about 50 dollars/liter (last I checked).

I can't see the liquid being the cost definer. But, some dewars are very expensive, and they still have to worry about condensation when it comes out. And safety, storage, etc.

Don't personally know if cryo makes a difference. I was surprised to hear people dunk electronics, and they work afterwards. Differential expansion is a real problem for some semiconductor packages.

TTFN, John

 

Re: I am amazed at the cost., posted on November 25, 2002 at 09:11:23
NEAR SOTA
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 John,If cost is not an issue then great.

I am only wondering weather there is a sonic benefit when using it for Audio cables.

If they are using it to give tools & autoparts better strength then it must be having a reaction to the metal. Weather that will transmit to being an improvement to sonics is the thing I am aiming to prove.

It is good that it will not cost much to find out.Thx

 

A cheap test, posted on November 26, 2002 at 03:37:30
rnhood
Audiophile

Posts: 11981
Location: South East USA
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 Not as cold as liquid nitrogen but, its getting close. Discharge a CO2 extinguisher into a cooler with one of your cables inside, or interconnects. Pick your soak time but anything over a couple minutes will be meaningless due to the very low thermal mass of a cable (or any electronic part for that matter). Your cable will see approx. -110 degrees F during the blast. Not as cold as LN2 but close. Afterwards clean it up and try it. Or repeat the process.

My opinion is that you will not hear a difference. Cryogenic treatments have more of an effect on alloys than pure metals. And even them I doubt it will make an audible change. Nevertheless the intent of this message is not to debate its merits.

If you don't think -110 degrees is cold enough then visit your local industrial welding store and buy some LN2. As one inmate stated, it is not expensive.

 

put parts in a ziplock bag with some stuff that drys the air.no condensation..nt., posted on November 26, 2002 at 11:21:19
Mellson
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Posts: 2639
Joined: April 15, 2001
 1

 

it's more than that..., posted on November 26, 2002 at 11:26:22
Mellson
Audiophile

Posts: 2639
Joined: April 15, 2001
 temp cool down and warm up slowly with a computer controling the process etc.......

 

Anything upstream of an adequate DC rail (nt)., posted on November 26, 2002 at 14:15:19
Jamie F
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Posts: 266
Location: South-East England
Joined: October 17, 2001
 .

 

Re: I am amazed at the cost., posted on November 27, 2002 at 01:44:53
john curl
Manufacturer

Posts: 4708
Joined: May 16, 2000
 Please read up on the process before commenting. Products don't get 'dipped' into liquid nitrogen. The process takes many hours with a computer assisted system. The process is cheap, only a few dollars per pound.

 

Dunk is only a term, but your right., posted on November 27, 2002 at 06:29:49
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 It's what we call it when we cool down a magnet. We do it under active control, as temp gradients can kill the parts also. Really destroy's plastics to dunk, as the surface shrinks before the guts do.

Cooldown of the big stuff can take 3 to 4 days. Same with warmup.

I've only had one occasion to actually plunk into liquid, and that was big time overkill to show an epoxy system's robustness.

You say a few dollars a pound? Why are some people giving such high dollar numbers? I am guessing that that's overhead costs.

Cheers, John

 

Agreed just kidding any way, posted on November 27, 2002 at 07:33:14
Robert Hamel
Audiophile

Posts: 1905
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 You can expose materials to those temperatures without some kind of gradual ramp in temperature both ways. You also need to do testing to verify that your process is not destructive.

No Thanks

 

WARNING!!, posted on November 27, 2002 at 08:57:39
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 That is the big problem I see in this.It is rather new and if the people do not know what they are doing serious damage can occur with the process.

Audio Engineer has used a Cryo Treatment and his results were less than stellar if you read his reaction to it at his site,but it does not mention what that process was.He is knowledgeable and I respect his opinions ,but other's are have reported hughe benefits.His sources say it is not a beneficial process and they are Metalurgist and Chemist I believe.

Ray Kimber I guess is experimenting with it,but he has not mentioned anything thus far that I have found.(will do a search)

Wayne of BoulderCables uses it through Ray Kimber's facility so something is going on in the research and implementation of it.

Alan Krafton uses and believes in it beyond any doubt.

And many of the Audio community are believers of the benefits of it.

The thing that makes me wary are the many fly-by-night cryo labs that are starting to crop up that might think that you just immerse your whateveer in it ,take it out and you have treated cables or whatever and you know this is not the case.I see you have to do this over a period of time under the correct conditions and with the best of equiptment by knowledgeable people.Anything less and you are running the risk of fracturing the componets therefore compromising it's mechanical integrity.

Godd luck!

 

Re: Dunk is only a term, but your right., posted on November 27, 2002 at 09:05:04
rcrump
Manufacturer

Posts: 4716
Location: Texas
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Contributor
  Since: August 29, 2000
 Yep, thermal shock is a real problem especially with polystyrene trim caps and MOVs...Nitrogen is about .16 a liter as I recall, but have to buy quite a bit and forgot the size of the bottles....Deep immersion is said to work better than any other method, but requires days and care....Last quote I had was $8/pound for deep immersion Cryo treatment BTW...The folks up North of town here offered to give me a few liters of nitrogen if I would bring a styrofoam beer cooler....Believe Steve Nugent tried this and it destroyed the lattice of the silver wire he treated.....I think he posted it made Johhny Cash sound like Elvis or something similar :-) Point is find a decent lab and take your wife's stockings and fancy sweaters along with the wire as they will wear better after the process.....Purist Audio Designs and Kimber both have state of the art facilities and funny thing is they just put the whole packing box in rather than opening it......There is a lot of information in the archives here about cryo treatments and the effects on sound is what I imagine John was talking about....Most of the facilities cryo things like drill bits and engine blocks so use one that is familiar with audio before you send a ton of NOS Western Electric 300b tubes to have them cryoed....We will not warranty our preamp if cryoed as the parts were never intended for much below 40 degrees below zero......One of the inmates here wanted to take his new five figure preamp over and get it cryoed and had to take a stance on this......

 

Cryo Experience, posted on November 27, 2002 at 11:29:37
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
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 My experience is limited with Cryo - I only did an immersion test to see if it changed anything. It definitely broke the conductors. Very poor sound. LRC measurements did not measurably change. This is not the accepted method, so I can only conclude that this method breaks things.

The jury is still out on whether this treatment actually improves things and if so, why. The head of the materials science Cryo lab at NIST is a good friend of mine and he says there is no reason to believe that there are any electrical benefits, however he has not specifically looked for this either.

 

You didn't shot peen the conductors first did you? nt, posted on November 27, 2002 at 12:43:43
Hafdef
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 .

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on November 27, 2002 at 13:01:11
john curl
Manufacturer

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 Are you saying that you just DUMPED the components into the liquid nitrogen?

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on November 27, 2002 at 20:21:07
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 If you look at objectively there should be improvement when using the cyro process because there is improvement in tensile strength which means the molecules are structured differently.Maybe more compact and aligned tighter.It also must take O2 out which would be better for the collision of electrons.

JMO

 

Re: Molecular Structure, posted on November 28, 2002 at 03:05:02
geoffkait
 Seems to be that the molecular structure (after treatment) is simply more homogeneous, not more tightly aligned; the molecules are compressed during cooling then during warmup the material undergoes expansion such that the molecules expand like raisins in dough when cooking in the oven; this expansion results in a more uniform distribution of the molecules. The molecular structure, at least in part, was non-uniform to begin with because the manufacturing processes such as stamping, drawing, rolling, cutting, etc. cause gross irregularites in the molecular structure of the materials - "clumping," "stretching," whatever...

 

Re: Molecular Structure, posted on November 28, 2002 at 06:17:21
NEAR SOTA
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Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
 "more uniform distribution of the molecules"

Sounds right.Thx!

 

do a research, posted on November 28, 2002 at 11:49:11
Mellson
Audiophile

Posts: 2639
Joined: April 15, 2001
 in google... you will say yes thanks.... otherwise, ford won't cryo their tools for nothing...

 

Ever take an ice plunge..., posted on November 29, 2002 at 08:52:57
dBe
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Joined: July 24, 2000
 after a sauna? I thought some of my best parts would fall off!

Cryogenic treatment is a process that is different for every material. Some materials 'like' a thermal shock... stellites and the like. Most do not.

Audio components, especially semiconductors, need special attention. The pre-chilling process is especially important as well as the inintial (above cryo) draw down. Near cryo (-320) transitions from vapor to immersion must be done with care if the product is to be useable afterwards. The controlled warm-up is also a very important step.

For treating audio cables, one of the things that is overlooked is what additional treatment can be done to the wire during the cryo stage.

More cannon fodder.

<><

Dave

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on December 4, 2002 at 12:05:09
audioengr
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 Changing the Lattice structure does not necessarily result in an improvement. Depends on how you change it. In general, if the structure is more orderly, the electrical performance should be better. The improvement in tensile strength for steel that is cryo treated comes because you have jumbled the lattice, much like what happens when you bend steel. Eventually it becomes so hard that it fractures.

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on December 4, 2002 at 12:08:43
audioengr
Manufacturer

Posts: 6017
Location: Oregon
Joined: April 12, 2001
 Yes - It was quite a shock to them. Probably similar to quenching them in cold water when red-hot. I just wanted to see if any measureable changes took place. The sound definitely got worse, but the only measurement that showed a difference was the TDT. The reflections were more pronounced and higher frequency after the cryo immersion. L,C, R did not change at all. This is all documented on my webpage.

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on December 5, 2002 at 16:57:16
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 ""Changing the Lattice structure does not necessarily result in an improvement. Depends on how you change it""

Agreed.

""In general, if the structure is more orderly, the electrical performance should be better.""

Although this seems common sense, I've not seen data to support that on silver wires, or copper wires. Just anecdotal evidence.

""The improvement in tensile strength for steel that is cryo treated comes because you have jumbled the lattice""

The transformation from FFC to BCT lattice structure within steel is temperature dependent. At room temperature, the process stops due to surface energy and lattice energy. Dropping the temperature makes the BCT lattice configuration preferred, producing more martensite.

""much like what happens when you bend steel""

Work hardening is a different effect from cryo-induced BCT martensite formation.

""Eventually it becomes so hard that it fractures.""

It's not the hardness that does it, it's the formation of stress concentrators, which cause the formation of cracks at boundaries.

Cheers, John


 

Re: Molecular Structure, posted on December 5, 2002 at 17:03:13
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 ""Seems to be that the molecular structure (after treatment) is simply more homogeneous, not more tightly aligned; the molecules are compressed during cooling then during warmup the material undergoes expansion such that the molecules expand like raisins in dough when cooking in the oven; this expansion results in a more uniform distribution of the molecules.""

It may be that the lattice structure has changed. FCC to BCT or BCC for example. That would require x-ray diffraction studies to confirm. There is also the possibility that the molecular arrangement of the metal is unchanged. Martensite formation in steel would contradict that. Unknown what silver, copper do.


""The molecular structure, at least in part, was non-uniform to begin with because the manufacturing processes such as stamping, drawing, rolling, cutting, etc. cause gross irregularites in the molecular structure of the materials - "clumping," "stretching," whatever...""

Agreed. With supers, we rely on that for creation of pinning sites to stop magnetic flux creepage. Makes for better superconductor performance.

Cheers, John

 

Re: Cryo Experience, posted on December 5, 2002 at 17:10:07
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 ""The reflections were more pronounced and higher frequency after the cryo immersion.""

Did you mean "at" higher frequency?

""L,C, R did not change at all.""

All being measured at 10Khz, or 60 Hz,? Or whatever frequency your meter uses. What was the freq?

But did L and C change at different frequencies? Do you have the capability of testing L, C at different freq's?


""This is all documented on my webpage""

What webpage?

TTFN, John

 

Re: Molecular Structure, posted on December 6, 2002 at 07:47:05
geoffkait
 The (sonic) performance of plastics appears quite improved by cryo treatment, even simple freezing, and many metals - copper, silver, steel, aluminum, gold, brass, as well as glass and whatever metals are used in electron tubes, there may be some things going on with these audio apps not documented; hard to pinpoint the mechanism/cause, not hard at all to "prove" the effect...

 

Re: Molecular Structure, posted on December 6, 2002 at 08:01:20
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
 ""The (sonic) performance of plastics appears quite improved by cryo treatment, even simple freezing, and many metals - copper, silver, steel, aluminum, gold, brass, as well as glass and whatever metals are used in electron tubes, there may be some things going on with these audio apps not documented; hard to pinpoint the mechanism/cause, not hard at all to "prove" the effect... ""

Plastics..don't know, have only destroyed them, or have seen no effect (not looking for any). My experience is primarily concerned with survival of the dielectric withstanding capability.

Key point.. "may be some things going on". For structural apps, where the properties cold/warm were needed, much testing was done. Unfortunately, electrical properties of metals through cold treatment has received less attention.

But, definitely hard to pinpoint the mechanism, and also hard to prove the effect (by prove, I mean measured using equipment). Alas, a flaw in our current abilities to measure.

Cheers, John

 

Re: Plastics, posted on December 6, 2002 at 13:07:33
geoffkait
 - plastics, as in teflon and the polycarbonate mat'l use in CD; the improvement of physical characteristics of plastics by cryogenics is well known/documented...not to worry about dielectric...

 

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