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The Importance of Audio Measurements

66.166.141.18

Posted on November 19, 2002 at 15:13:35
I'll fully confess to being a long-time Jeff Rowland groupie. However, I'm wondering what the techies here think of the following discussion which appears on Jeff's website:

Rowland.

 

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Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 19, 2002 at 15:41:55
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
""However, current testing procedures commonly used in audio development, manufacturing and the audio press are inadequate to properly correlate and relate measurements with subjective experience.""

I would definitely agree with that statement.

His slant is good. The issues he presents are good.

Personally, I would want to know more about how he actually does the tests. If it's all marketing fluff, well, that's a problem. If not, he's good.

Been bicycling lately Phil? I'm gonna, Dec 13. (well, actually, no bicycles to speak of), but that's another story.

Cheers, John

 

Are we asking for a true/false answer to a multiple choice question?, posted on November 19, 2002 at 16:10:10
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
Seems that some people are going to the far reaches to find objective measurement differences in cables, and have perhaps have in fact measured a difference between certain cables. Great.

There are still problems...First, and foremost, do these measured differences translate into audible differences that can be heard by those with "average" human hearing?

Are these differences in fact stable regardless of time and place, and sample, or are they intrinsic to the particular cables under test? Or, are there outside influences, or possible variations in manufacturing and materials, for example, which might change the results?

Lastly, how can absolute value judgements be made (cable X is better than cable Y), in the event the differences are audible, given the fact that perceptions of "good" and "bad" are personal, and subjective?

The simple fact that there are so many cables on the market, and that there is a wide range of proponents for each would seem to indicate something. If there was an absolute "best" cable from a measurement standpoint (or amp, etc.), why the divergent opinions?

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 19, 2002 at 17:33:26
Monstrous Mike
Audiophile

Posts: 571
Location: Ottawa
Joined: November 10, 2002
I don't find anything particularly exciting about that article. It seems like a designer mulling over how new technology will affect his future audio testing.

What I did find interesting was his alluding to the achievement of a flat frequency response. Perhaps with new testing, it will be possible to achieve a very flat response over the entire spectrum and over all power levels with appropriate dynamic capabilities. This would seem to point to transparent or neutral amplification. It is curious as to how designers will try to make amps in the future sound different if they are tested to such a degree that they all have common performance. In other words, it may be true now that two measured systems will actually sound different, but as Jeff has suggested, that may be the result of insuffient comparitive measurements.

I personally see us heading to a point in time where the only factors in the effect on sound will be be the various speaker designs, room acoustics and the source material itself. Everything from source to speaker will be transparent.

Wouldn't it be great to discuss how one drummer's snare sounds different that another's rather that how one guy's speaker wire sound different than anothers. If we all have transparent reference systems, we can resort to actually discussing the sound of the music.

 

Re: Are we asking for a true/false answer to a multiple choice question?, posted on November 19, 2002 at 17:55:12
JOEY.
Audiophile

Posts: 90
Joined: August 11, 2002
Hello Kuribo,

Your point is a good one: no-one can state that cable X is better than cable Y from a perceptions point of view, but it may IN THE FUTURE (with more testing/research) be possible to say that cable X more faithfully transfers the signal than Cable Y under various loads, source and test conditions.

I do not feel that this future is here yet. Which is why we must continue to listen, and when we hear differences, objectively test the cables to determine POSSIBLE reasons for the sonic difference. It is only when we understand the aspects of a cable's design that effect the sonics, that we will be able to make more perfect cables on purpose rather than by accident. Of course we could test all cables first and then listen for differences, but that would be a much larger task. In any event I don't believe we have all of the test methods yet.


HAVE FUN,

JOEY.

 

Re: Are we asking for a true/false answer to a multiple choice question?, posted on November 19, 2002 at 18:01:46
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
""In any event I don't believe we have all of the test methods yet""

I would agree with that belief...But, I'm trying, in some little way.

John

 

I tend to mostly agree with it., posted on November 19, 2002 at 23:17:56
jj
I didn't have time tonight to read it all.

I do think that the "standard" measurements we're mostly familiar with are "mostly useless". By those I mean IMD, THD, noise floor, and the like, stated in their usual '1 dimensional' fashion.

Short-term error spectra? Now we're getting somewhere. I have no idea how to teach the layman how to evaluate one, though.


JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 05:18:35
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
Phil ,I hope as a groupie you don't shave your head , run around banging on a tamborine, chanting to JR dressed in a white robe !
------

Article
Another overlooked area of testing is evaluation of the DUT in a radio frequency interference (RFI) environment. Thorough testing and analysis of RFI, immunity in audio equipment is increasingly important due to the proliferation of telecommunication devices and computers throughout the world. This testing involves injecting minute amounts of continuous or multitone RF signals into the input, output, AC mains, and chassis of the DUT. The output of the DUT is analyzed much the same as above. Poorly designed equipment which under common lab tests can measure fine, will escape this particular scrutiny.
---------------------
I think this is rather important as in my neck of the woods and in large urban area's AC Line Voltages and outside influences(RFI) can alter sound playback.
One solution I have been looking at are Voltage Stabilizer's.They are expensive ,but I believe worth it.I would expect that most quality Cos. do check their chasis and Input\Outputs for RFI.
http://www.exactpower.com/index.php
http://www.electrogard.com/stabilizers.htm
================================
Audio hardware and interconnect cables are sensitive to mechanical vibration (microphonics). Sound energy, transferred through structural and air mediums, can significantly impact the performance of all audio equipment in many domestic environments. Again, equipment sensitivity to this condition is rarely tested in manufacturing or considered during the design process.
------
"AGAIN"-The article points out relative things that have to do with interference which never totally can be overcome as is mentioned,but knowing the inherent problems is a start on how audiophiles can protect their investments and minmise the problems should be addressed.Nothing in the article is really new ,but it could be a challange to Manfs. to study the problem which could improve equiptment that is put out to an unknowing public which is good.

When identifying the problem in my own system I came accross this thread that helped me understand the issues mentioned,but not from a measurement standpoint.It is intresting to read some of the experiences,solutions and theories.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&986177686&openflup&1&4#1

===================
Many well-meaning critics hold that so far as an audio component measures "perfect" in certain areas, the audio component will not have a "sound of its own," and it will be indistinguishable from a component with similar measurements. The measurement criteria usually involve flat frequency response, insignificant static and dynamic nonlinearities, high input impedances, low output impedances, low noise and crosstalk levels, etc. Yet these common notions fail to uncover the actual performance potentials of complete audio systems.
---
I tried to state this over at AR in relation to Amps .We won't go there though.I was shot down by MTRY and gang for the belief.Ridiculous!
Is this not Synergy also.If a part of the chain is weak the whole of the system will suffer which means the sound will suffer.Hard to explain that.Like the end result is no greater than the weakest link and no specs can determine what that outcome will be when building a system.Measurements are therefore meaningless when attempting to get the correct synergy. Same as with Cables.Some will do great than outhers will suffer and not have the desired effect.


 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 06:41:01
Right before I read your post, I shared the following observation in a private e-mail to a fellow Propeller Head:


“So on the one extreme are those who uncritically accept DBT results and consider those who raise questions about the validity of such tests as 'ignorant'. On the other extreme are those who want the subject banned.

Pretty difficult to carry on reasoned discussions in that atmosphere.”

I probably should have added to that e-mail the statement that fortunately there are reasonable people on both sides of the objective-subjective divide who do seem willing to carry on a reasonable dialog.


In this regard, I was struck by the following comment in the Rowland piece:

Audio hardware and interconnect cables are sensitive to mechanical vibration (microphonics). Sound energy, transferred through structural and air mediums, can significantly impact the performance of all audio equipment in many domestic environments. Again, equipment sensitivity to this condition is rarely tested in manufacturing or considered during the design process.

The idea that microphonics could be responsible for audible effects in solid state electronics and cables has always struck me as fairly far-fetched. In fact, the miniscule levels of distortion some are attempting to measure in cables seems to me like it would be far below the threshold of human hearing. Yet to even raise the issue with them in a polite manner invites a tirade.

I was also struck by this part of the Rowland piece:

Among the most important tests for musical reproduction accuracy is the Fastest procedure developed by Audio Precision, Inc. This test will uncover wide band, dynamic nonlinearities in DUTs (devices under test) previously unexposed by twin-tone IMD (intermodulation distortion) and THD + N (total harmonic distortion plus noise) testing procedures. A composite of either 32 or 64 discrete tones, non-harmonically spaced throughout the 20 to 20 kHz bandwidth, is introduced to the DUT inputs. The DUT outputs are routed back into the computer interfaced analyzer, which sharply attenuates each of the 32 or 64 original tones. The resulting intermodulation (sum and difference) tones of the original tones are then integrated and displayed for analysis and/or continuing product development. Note that this test signal more accurately represents a musical signal due to its high content of discrete frequencies. Any nonlinearities present in the DUT directly create a multitude of spurious difference frequencies, which fall throughout the lower amplitude ranges of the entire audio spectrum, significantly limiting and compressing the usable dynamic range. A poor result on this test correlates to the common listening experience of dynamic range compression, congestion, loss of detail and obscuration of the silence and harmonic integrity in music as the material becomes increasingly complex.

On its face, this type of approach to measuring the performance of amps and preamps seems to make a lot of sense. But again, it seems to me that some extremist objectivists don’t even want to talk about things like this as they see it as a flight of subjectivist fancy, folly and mythology. On the other hand, some of those who are exploring measurements such as this, seem offended if they are asked how these measurements might relate to actual audible sonic differences.

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 10:50:29
john curl
Manufacturer

Posts: 4708
Joined: May 16, 2000
Of course Phil, that is the path that I am heading toward. I want to use multiple tones as well, and they will give more significant numbers, but when it comes to wires, even harmonic distortion THD measurements show something consistently different between different wire types. I applaud Audio Precision for going in this direction.

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 12:06:43
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
Everything I've seen indicates Rowland equipment is very fine.

"The measurement criteria usually involve flat frequency response, insignificant static and dynamic nonlinearities, high input impedances, low output impedances, low noise and crosstalk levels, etc."

I notice from the Rowland site that the specifications and reviews indicate excellent performance in those respects, and that the amplifiers can deliver substantial power into low impedance loads, too.

Well, one thing we agree on is that many of the usual measurements of electronics don't tell us much useful for choosing between them. Many of the measurements are so good that they do not indicate an audible difference in normal operation. It is always possible that something else may cause an audible difference, but I would like to some some good evidence.

No question either that electronics should filter out hum and RF from the power lines. I think most good equipment does.

As to the multi-tone measurements and cable microphonics, it would be nice to see some quantified results, and of course, DBTs. But you already know that. I have no objection to choosing equipment because it does well on such measurements or others, BWT. My equipment is overkill in many respects. But it would be nice to establish whether the difference is audible under normal circumstances.

I would point out that Rowland does seek to correlate measurements with sonic characteristics. Does that make him an objectivist in principle?


____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 13:21:02
On the subject of overkill, I once heard someone say that anyone with an unlimited budget ought to be able to build the best. It's the engineer who has to design to a real world budget that has the real challenge. Rowland is not the most expensive gear in the world, but Jeff certainly has a lot of lattitude within his budget constraints that others don't. Whether my Model Twelves at $14,000 retail can out perform John Curl's JC-1s at $6,000 I don't know, but I'll be comparing them soon.

As to the multi-tone measurements and cable microphonics, it would be nice to see some quantified results, and of course, DBTs. But you already know that.

Yes, I certainly agree. One reason I picked this particular quote is because it seemed to have a little more engineering detail than most high end websites. Nonetheless, it raises more questions than it answers, and obviously has its share of hype-factor.

I would point out that Rowland does seek to correlate measurements with sonic characteristics. Does that make him an objectivist in principle?

Probably, but we don't know where he stands on blind testing, and, despite some of the doubts and questions I've raised regarding blind testing, I still maintain that blind listening tests will be the only way that true objectivity can every be achieved in audio (and I understand that for some that is not necessarily their objective). It always has seemed a little strange to me that not a single manufacturer of high end electronics can, to the best of my knowledge, claim that the effectiveness of their various theories of technological superiority has been subjected and validated through blind testing. Of course, I know to many objectivists this doesn't seem strange at all, since they strongly suspect those claims cannot be validated.

Too bad more designers don't or won't participate here. For all the grief I and others have given John Curl, while he may have deserved some of it for his abrupt responses, I give a lot of credit to him for being willing to open himself up to all of us and for being extremely honest and blunt in expressing his own personal beliefs. I wish more designers would show the willingness he does to participate. For example, wouldn't it be interesting to press Jeff Rowland a little on some of the statements he made in that article?

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 13:55:56
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
Micro's are a bit under scrutiny I can understand that,but more so as in the case of cables.If you have unsheilded cable's it would be a concern I would think or as in my case Unsheilded and small gaged wire,but I have not seen any results that varify a difference that I can remember.As for an audio effect I have nothing to judge them by because I do not know weather there is a diff..I have had no problems with my wire.

On the other hand static electricity is a huge charge and how is that measured.I know I can feel it and it is a big cause of failure for IC's.Even chewing gum can result in a charge when working with Transistors.I know that from when I worked at Fairchilds.

"A poor result on this test correlates to the common listening experience of dynamic range compression, congestion, loss of detail and obscuration of the silence and harmonic integrity in music as the material becomes increasingly complex."

That would to be shown to me by Ear.I stated before Mesurements are good on certain levels and other's really don't do much for the consumer.The way they are takin is not uniform through the industry as any sales person will tell you.Something should be done about that.

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 14:29:30
mike_decock
Audiophile

Posts: 890
Joined: June 3, 2002
"we can resort to actually discussing the sound of the music. "

But what's the fun in that???

-Mike...

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 20, 2002 at 20:45:51
jj
Quoting two levels: Level 1: As to the multi-tone measurements and cable microphonics, it would be nice to see some quantified results, and of course, DBTs. But you already know that.

and 2: Yes, I certainly agree. One reason I picked this particular quote is because it seemed to have a little more engineering detail than most high end websites. Nonetheless, it raises more questions than it answers, and obviously has its share of hype-factor.

If you still have an LP table, just try tapping the side of one of your low-level phono cables. Just to make sure it isn't the cart being microphonic, hold that end (not an absolute test, of course).

You may be surprised. You may have to turn up the gain, but then you'll be surprised, too, maybe.

You'd be surprised what can be a microphone under the wrong conditions :)
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies

 

Re: Are we asking for a true/false answer to a multiple choice question?, posted on November 21, 2002 at 03:31:43
NEAR SOTA
Manufacturer

Posts: 2613
Location: MAINE USA
Joined: July 27, 2002
"The Best!"-There will never be the Best of anything for Cables,Amps,CDP's,DAC's or any type of equiptment.It comes down to synergy between components and speaker's.It is personal taste that make alot of things better than other's,but then there are things like Transparentcy,Sounstaging,Bass,Treble,Midrange,Instrament seperation and Details revealed that make a system sound good and those things can be judged.

There is the question of weather Cables make a difference at all that astounds most people to begin with and narrowing down what might be happening would be a breakthrough.

The thing I see in the cost question is how much time and effort it takes to design a good cable construction.Then there is the material cost.After that marketing cost.Those are the things which make some cables so expensive.There are the mass producers like Monster that have a good hold on the mass consumer marketplace that can hold some cost down.Then you get to Companies like Transparent who I think are more a specialty cable company which makes their cable prices high.I spoke to them about their TT's and they just do special orders now.

"Lastly, how can absolute value judgements be made (cable X is better than cable Y), in the event the differences are audible, given the fact that perceptions of "good" and "bad" are personal, and subjective?"

That I think is a synergy question as much as what I had stated before.Transparent and highend cables are more revealing of the components that are upstream to the source.There is overkill also.Like why would someone put $3000 cables on a $1500 reciever.
If Dr.O'tooles statement is read an interpretation of performance to cost then at some point it does get to be ridiculous.That is my opinion.

Technology breakthroughs are helping.Measurement equiptment is helping to explain and find better ways of finding out what might be happening.

What designs work better with some equiptment then fall short working with other's is a good question?


 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 21, 2002 at 05:36:05
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
Well, I just tried it. I put the preamp on Disc, turned the preamp gain all the way up (in steps, just to be safe; of course, there was some broadband hiss at full volume), and tapped the phono cables. Couldn't hear any result from the tapping out of the speakers.

I also tried my headphones through the headphone jack of a tape deck (my preamp has no headphone jack), and could hear nothing from the tapping, but the gain isn't really very high in that case, though more than adequate for music.

I imagine the effect would be measureable, but in this case, I couldn't hear it.


____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 21, 2002 at 08:57:46
Wow, even I would have expected it from the Phono cables, but certainly not the regular interconnects - impedance is too low.

I've done this on an oscilloscope numerous times, especially with unterminated teflon cables, it's easy to see the results - until you put a low impedance(resistance) load on them, then it's gone.

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 21, 2002 at 09:46:44
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
Isn't the standard phono input impedance 47 kilohms?
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

cable microphonics, posted on November 21, 2002 at 10:38:05
John Escallier
Audiophile

Posts: 4425
Location: Long Island
Joined: October 3, 2002
Setup a PA system for touring the magnet division factory last summer. Found that balanced mike runs, when they hit the floor, produced exact replica's of the cable to floor impact through the speakers. Not noise, but perfect microphonics. With the mikes off. And every cord I tried. Six in all.

I do suspect, however, that it was a combination of the plus to minus wires in the cable bouncing w/r to each other, and the stray magnetic fields present in the concrete rebar, on the order of tens of gauss.
The braid shielding of course, doesn't stop the external magnetic field from penetrating to the conductors.

50 ohm cables are microphonic also. Take a scope, plug in a cable, and hit the cable end on the floor. There will be an interesting waveform on the scope.

TTFN, John

 

What kind of cartridge, Pat?, posted on November 21, 2002 at 21:26:53
jj
Some call for 47K input. Some don't. Some call for rather orders of magnitude less.

And a few (does anyone know if any of those old ceramic THINGS are still out there) expected something like 2.2 meg.
JJ - Philalethist and Annoyer of Bullies

 

Re: What kind of cartridge, Pat?, posted on November 22, 2002 at 06:15:06
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
I have a Grace F9E.

The Quad preamp is spec'd for a phono input impedance of 47K, with a choice of adding in 180 pF capacitance, which would be in addition to whatever the phono cables had. The extra capacitance introduces a roll off in the FR, about 5-6 dB at 16K if I recall, which generally sounds way too dark. In any case, the phono cable I tapped on is on the outside the TT, a Denon DP-60L, which Dougman says is fine, BWT. If I tap the cartridge or tone arm, of course I can hear something.

Now, if I had a low output moving coil, which requires more gain, perhaps I would hear something. Quad used to have different input modules available for moving coils, and they may still be available.

2.2 meg? Gee, my Radio input is only 1 meg; CD input .5 meg; the rest are about 100,000 ohms (varies somewhat with the input sensitivity, which is adjustable). I really don't know anything about the availability of ceramic cartridges or replacement needles.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

Source impedance is normally the important factor, posted on November 22, 2002 at 08:02:52
Ole Lund Christensen
Manufacturer

Posts: 1914
Location: Switzerland
Joined: January 1, 2001
The lowest of the two impedances the cable see, is normally the source impedance, say 1kOhm for MM, down to 2 Ohm for MC.

The source impedance load down the cable's generator, which is a high impedance generator.

Microphones often have 600 Ohm source impedance and low levels, making this cable microphonic effect audible.

Preamps and CD players have from a few Ohms to 2kOhm source impedance, but much higher levels, and thus relative less audible effect of microphonic cables.

 

Re: The Importance of Audio Measurements, posted on November 22, 2002 at 08:27:55
Yep, 47k is it.

 

Re: Source impedance is normally the important factor, posted on November 22, 2002 at 16:14:09
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
I have no idea what the source impedance of a Grace cartridge is.

What sort of magnitude are cable microphonics?
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

Re: Source impedance is normally the important factor, posted on November 23, 2002 at 15:23:47
john curl
Manufacturer

Posts: 4708
Joined: May 16, 2000
Ole is correct. The Grado cartridge is low Z.

 

Re: Source impedance is normally the important factor, posted on November 23, 2002 at 18:25:19
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
Well, I do own a Grado cartridge, but I no longer use it. They are supposed to maintain their FR pretty well into various capacitances, as I recall.

I currently use a Grace F9E. Is it low impedance, too?


____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)

 

Re: Source impedance is normally the important factor, posted on November 23, 2002 at 19:21:28
john curl
Manufacturer

Posts: 4708
Joined: May 16, 2000
I don't think so.

 

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