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No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?

88.97.21.18
Posted on February 8, 2017 at 09:39:49
PAR
 There is a very interesting article on the Stereophile website today. It includes an interview with Klaus Heymann of Naxos. It explains why Classics Online folded and in it he predicts the demise of CD within 5 - 10 years, the decline of downloads and the only players left in the streaming market being those with income other than that generated from subscription.

In effect he is saying that all that will be left is Apple Music, Amazon Music and the like (a gong I have been banging for a while here). This would currently seem to leave us with only MP3 as there is no indication of them desiring to move to higher resolution formats. He mentions Spotify as another survivor due to its advertising income. However as all or most of their advertising seems record company based , if the record companies no longer have CDs or downloads to sell what would they advertise?

It therefore seems to me that if he is correct these sources would then constitute the sole or nearly the sole income streams for for their record company suppliers via royalties . As the record companies probably could not generate suficient revenue from streaming alone ( except possibly top 40 labels) in order to replicate their current income, this may make the whole thing economically unsustainable. Certainly specialist genre repertoire would be unlikely to generate enough streaming interest to cover costs and survive (remember that even if a streaming service offers , say, 40 million tracks the vast majority of them are never accessed. How many streams a year does a small label specialising in, say, choral music or bluegrass get?).

So for consumers (Heymann distinguishes the B2B music market) it looks to me like Apple and Amazon etc. streaming music as the sole source of non-broadcast receorded music outside of used CDs. The music would come only from the majors (and their licensed labels) and would consist solely of mass market top 40 type titles with back catalogue of a similar variety. And all in MP3.

Your thoughts?

 

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RE: No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?, posted on February 8, 2017 at 10:10:46
zacster
Audiophile

Posts: 2179
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 We thought the same about vinyl 30 years ago. If there is a market someone will come and fill it.

 

RE: No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?, posted on February 8, 2017 at 10:42:06
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
I think there will be millions of used CD's to choose from like there is with vinyl. We have no control over the direction of the industry so I'll just go with the flow. I'm not worried. ;-)



 

I also read somewhere that Apple is interested in upgrading. . . , posted on February 8, 2017 at 10:49:04
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26483
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 . . . the quality of their streaming on Apple Music. Like many articles associated with Apple however, this one may have been just a rumor.

I do respect Klaus however - he has a very good track record with the business, and, with the various new formats which have been introduced over the years, he seems to know when to fish and when to cut bait.

 

RE: No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?, posted on February 8, 2017 at 11:12:02
Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008
 To hell with it all. Live just for today is what I say. If all I could get for the rest of my life is just the huge library currently on my NAS with the amazing hi rez Mch sound quality I have got now, I would be plenty happy. I have musical riches right now that are way, way beyond my wildest dreams of 10 years ago. Musically and sonically, it is paradise.

Besides, if Donald Trump does not start WWIII and kill us all, global warming will.

Happy listening.

 

The number of new CD releases every month, posted on February 8, 2017 at 11:12:53
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 at Archiv and Presto Classical ( among others ) is amazing.
They keep pumping them out, somebody must be making $.

 

The CD is dead, but the business of Music will Survive......., posted on February 8, 2017 at 12:37:20
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Digital Music will survive (Not CDs as Disk Drives are more efficient) and so will Analog Music (Vinyl). And Streaming of Music will also survive, just like the streaming of Video. (Netflix)

Whether the prices will go up for streaming, remains to be determined. There may not be enough demand for Lossless audio streaming, as most people can't hear the difference. Whereas High Definition Video is in very high demand.




 

RE: No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?, posted on February 8, 2017 at 13:34:36
Mike B.
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Posts: 26356
Location: OR
Joined: September 27, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 1, 1999
 I think the same thing will be true for recorded video content. Services like Netflix will only offer streaming.


 

Dropped into Aeomeba records on Haight St. in San Francisco..., posted on February 8, 2017 at 18:16:56
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 this afternoon and it was like a tomb. In past years there would have been a line to check out, today I felt like the only one in the place.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

No audiophile quality recordings since 60 years!!!, posted on February 8, 2017 at 23:55:44
soundchekk
Audiophile

Posts: 2426
Joined: July 11, 2007
 To be honest.

Many of my preferred Jazz and Classic recordings are from the 50s.
What happened in a 60 year timefrane?!?!
Most of the new stuff IMO just sounds overprocessed and artificial.
The better the system gets the more you can enjoy the real thing.

Who cares if the new stuff runs at mp3 level. @ high rates of > 200kbit
it doesn't even sound that bad.
I actually prefer it. Much easier to handle over air.


(Obviously I do appreciate modern transfer and playback technology)

Enjoy.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

blog latest >> The Audio Streaming Series - tuning kit pCP

 

RE: No audiophile quality recordings in 10 years?, posted on February 9, 2017 at 06:22:25
michaelhigh
Audiophile

Posts: 839
Location: midwest
Joined: August 18, 2010
 "Besides, if Donald Trump does not start WWIII and kill us all, global warming will."

Nice bipartisan answer!

Now, if the country as well as the music industry would agree to do things in unity and with high quality, we'd have great music for ever, as well as world peace!

 

CDs and even SACDs are still popular for Classical music ..., posted on February 9, 2017 at 07:35:30
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 9878
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 ... what else really matters?


Dmitri Shostakovich

 

Yes, and Dinosaurs were still mating right up to their Mass Extinction......nt..., posted on February 9, 2017 at 07:43:37
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 nt...



 

I didn't get that impression, posted on February 9, 2017 at 08:10:06
E-Stat
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 "The quality of the recording is very important in classical and jazz. Where mp3 downloads may be tanking, we do see a continuity of collectors who want, at a minimum, lossless downloads, and also want hi-rez."

As has been the case with vinyl since it was rendered *obsolete* thirty five years ago. I think high quality recordings will still be available, albeit in an even more niche media-free environment. Mp3 downloads are tanking due to streaming providers. Unquestionably, we have more venues for entertainment and listening to music now consumes a smaller slice of that time for most everyone.

And the vast majority of consumers find 320kbps mp3 quality good enough. I buy CDs only to rip them and stick 'em on a shelf. Like millennials, I enjoy having instant access to any part of my (digital) music library across multiple playback systems. Their cost to manufacture and especially to distribute and maintain inventory has exceeded the necessary margins for profitability. Let's remember they were introduced when the first IBM PC appeared using 320k floppy drives using a 16 bit processor running at 5 Mhz with 256k of memory! Computer technology marches on ever more quickly.

Why shuffle and spin separate pieces of plastic for each selection and require large amounts of shelving for their storage?

 

LoL !! Good one -nt, posted on February 9, 2017 at 11:04:00
AbeCollins
Audiophile

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Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 .

 

RE: Dropped into Aeomeba records on Haight St. in San Francisco..., posted on February 9, 2017 at 16:35:55
zacster
Audiophile

Posts: 2179
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Maybe Thursday afternoon isn't one of their busy times? It wasn't crowded the only time I was there about 2 years ago. I don't remember the day of the week, but it was earlier in the day as I remember going to the Haight with the whole family (3 teens) only to find everything still closed. We had breakfast and by the time we were done things were opening.

 

RE: I didn't get that impression, posted on February 9, 2017 at 16:42:32
zacster
Audiophile

Posts: 2179
Location: NYC
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Moore's law keeps on going, but somehow the music tech industry got stuck in the 80s with CD. If the format stuck with Moore's law we'd have had hi-res by 1987. Instead music tech went backwards to MP3.

Vinyl was far better than CD if you were an audiophile. The problem was the masses had crappy turntables with even crappier styluses. They also didn't take care of their records. CD seemed so easy and "perfect sound forever".

 

RE: I didn't get that impression, posted on February 9, 2017 at 17:22:32
PAR
 You may not get that impression as that comment you cite comes from Jeff van Driel and not Klaus Heymann whose comments I specifically refer to.

As for the vast majority of consumers finding MP3 320 KS/s "good enough" so they do. However is this forum or this hobby about people who find or want audio formats just " good enough"?

I agree with your take on buying CDs. Rip 'em.

 

Agree on all points!, posted on February 9, 2017 at 17:24:25
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 The problem was the masses had crappy turntables with even crappier styluses.

I'm still enjoying a turntable for backup purposes I purchased as a teen in '76 which is still pretty decent by today's standards - an Ariston RD11s (same father as Linn Sondek LP-12) with an SME 3009 arm. :)

 

RE: CDs and even SACDs are still popular for Classical music ..., posted on February 9, 2017 at 17:40:23
PAR
 Er, we are talking about the future, 10 years ahead. Not what is popular now.

If SACDS are a popular format for classical music in 10 years time I will buy you dinner at whatever restaurant you choose in London UK. OK? If they are not then you can buy me the same wherever I choose in London Canada. Acceptable? All subject to travel :-)

 

RE: Dropped into Aeomeba records on Haight St. in San Francisco..., posted on February 9, 2017 at 17:48:32
PAR
 Gosh, the last time I was in Aeomeba in the Height was 17 years ago. Loads of great vinyl in the small room to the right as you go in (vague memory). The rest CDs and posters.

I bought as many LPs (all jazz) as I thought I could reasonably pack into my suitcase and not attract customs duty on my return to the UK.

Happy days!

 

RE: I didn't get that impression, posted on February 10, 2017 at 06:44:21
E-Stat
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Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 You may not get that impression as that comment you cite comes from Jeff van Driel and not Klaus Heymann whose comments I specifically refer to.

And yet, I still did having read the entire story. And followed the link with more about Heymann himself. Did you read that one, too? :)

BTW, I don't find any comments by Heymann that refute what the president of ArchivMusic said. If anything, other comments he made support my observations:

"Anything where you sell less than 1000 copies does not really recoup the investment of manufacturing, booklets, all that. So if sales continue to drop, and more titles reach that point where you cannot sell at least 1000 or 1500, then it's going to be digital and CD on demand...

I think what will probably happen is that, increasingly, we will release only new recordings digitally [downloads]. And we're moving towards manufacturing on demand for those digital-only recordings. We just bought the on-demand manufacturing facility of ArkivMusic, and that will be shifted to Nashville.

Right now, digital only is about 25% of all our releases. I think, over the next two or three years, it will probably move to 50%.

I'm not worried [about classical music] because, look: The classical record business in the United States is about a $100-million-a-year business."

Nor am I.

 

Joy of Audio can happen at MP3... But unfortunately.., posted on February 10, 2017 at 08:34:03
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 the engineers and producers - from the CD era to now regularly refuse to take advantage of the dynamic range capability of the recording format. Even with the highest bit rates and depth, when you take away 10-20dB of the dynamic range of "live" music as the produced outcome, our minds have to work hard to "imagine" the live event. Now when you perform the psychoacoustic DSP compression on this "flat" recording, it is easy to dismiss the quality of the event.

Take a well produced recording and stream it at 320k (on Spotify) and you get - even on my modest system - great imaging, realistic timbre rendering and a good listening experience. Sure, if I switch over to same recording on CD, SACD, or DVD-A (yes I have a few of those) you can notice a difference.

I do find a lot of audiophiles and audio enthusiast will dismiss the signal as "un-listenable" and in that singular intellectual act they make a self-fulfilling prophesy - losing confidence in the playback and destroying their ability to re-imaging the performance.

Similar condition happens in some blind testing - Anxiety effects the brain's ability to imagine!




"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

The joy of TV can happen on analog interlaced CRT's. But.... , posted on February 10, 2017 at 09:21:17
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...why would you? Other than the fact that it's been dead for over a decade.

Take a well produced recording and stream it at 320k (on Spotify) and you get - even on my modest system - great imaging, realistic timbre rendering and a good listening experience. Sure, if I switch over to same recording on CD, SACD, or DVD-A (yes I have a few of those) you can notice a difference.

Not just "notice a difference" but notice a very obvious difference.

I've listened to Spotify, Pandora, Amazon Music, and Apple Music streaming at their highest bitrates in my car via direct digital connection into the car's audio system DAC. (No analog AUX input or Blutooth nonsense). I have also played 256kbps AAC downloads from Apple in this same car setup. While they are certainly listenable and even enjoyable, there is no denying that a lossless CD rip (ALAC, FLAC) or uncompressed (WAV, AIFF) sound significantly better to me.

I've done the same in my home audio setup. The compressed streaming content is definitely missing detail 'clarity' especially in the lower bass region and up top in the treble, and the presentation is less dynamic.

So, unless I'm just listening to background music and want some 'sound' in the car or room, I will always go for my own lossless CD rips or higher res downloads vs these streaming services. It nags at me knowing that I can have so much better with my own rips that I rarely stream.

"I do find a lot of audiophiles and audio enthusiast will dismiss the signal as "un-listenable" and in that singular intellectual act they make a self-fulfilling prophesy - losing confidence in the playback and destroying..."

I would argue that it's more than just 'self-fulfilling prophesy' when one has experienced and can always notice the quality gap.

I use streaming services mostly for music discovery and background music.

I have yet to try Tidal which may be on par or very close in quality to my own CD rips.




 

That's an excellent point, posted on February 10, 2017 at 09:32:59
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Moore's law and the music industry going in opposite directions. We'd all be listening to high quality high resolution music if the music industry had a clue.



 

"The problem was the masses had crappy turntables with even crappier styluses. They also . . ., posted on February 10, 2017 at 11:18:33
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26483
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 . . . didn't take care of their records."

So, for the masses, CD was far better than vinyl! ;-)

And speaking personally, I was all too happy to ditch vinyl as soon as CD's came out - and I've never looked back. (And I fancied myself a fanatic about record care too - it was good riddance for me!)

 

RE: The joy of TV can happen on analog interlaced CRT's. But.... , posted on February 10, 2017 at 11:48:42
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 LOL, I was watching an NBA game on hardwood Classics (1992 Allstar?)
And I couldn't believe how grainy the picture was. Then I realised I just 7 feet from a 55" TV screen (Mitsu Rear projection - cerca 2004) instead of the 27" Sony I would have viewing it on live back then...

Still once I got into the action I wasn't really noticing the poor resolution...

You said "I use streaming services mostly for music discovery and background music."
This is the great application of Pandora and Spotify - replacing the FM Jazz and AOR channel I listened to in the 70's - 80's.
I also use these though to assess the recordings quality - if I like it is goes into a playlist!

Almost anyone that is trained can double bind test the difference of <320kbs MP3 versus High res formats - but without the comparison I'm pretty comfortable enjoying the performances

What I've been doing (very slowly) with my CD's and vinyl transfers to my Audio Server, is "Remastering" as well as cleaning it up. Talk about noticable... adding Dynamics (like my old 3BX unit but better), EQ when needed, Noise Shaping, and even a bit of stereo imaging adjustment makes a recording just for me! (I use the the Izotope suite) I'm typically gaining 5-10dB on almost everything and 15dB on transients (plucks and whacks!)

It makes my recordings a lot quieter (at the same volume knob setting), but when a live snare rim hit has a 35-40 dB crest factor, and the best you see on most CD's and LP's is maybe 20dB - it does seem more real - and makes me glad my amp can pass 1000W peaks!

After all that work, I'm not saving these in lossy formats.

thanks for your comments!






"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: The joy of TV can happen on analog interlaced CRT's. But.... , posted on February 10, 2017 at 12:55:10
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46303
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I -think- we're on about the same page.

I can and do enjoy 320kbps streaming. I'm not one of those whiner 'audiophools' who call it unlistenable, fatiguing, or "it hurts my ears". Whah! I enjoy the music.

But even w/o doing a side-by-side AB test, I am familiar enough with my lossless or uncompressed CD tracks that I can tell when I'm hearing a 320kbps stream.

I do this mostly in the car. The iPhone has a handful of streaming apps for Spotify, Pandora, Amazon Music, and Apple Music. I'll launch one for the music variety on a long drive but when I hear a track that I have ripped from a CD, I'll switch to my CD rip and it is plainly clear that the rip is superior to the stream. In this setup, the iPhone in my car is acting as a transport only with it's internal DAC and analog stage are completely bypassed as the signal is sent digitally via the Lightning connector into the car's DAC.






 

Compare the latest Music Direct catalog with one from 2006..., posted on February 11, 2017 at 11:14:50
SalD
Audiophile

Posts: 465
Joined: January 25, 2000
 Anything new?

 

RE: Compare the latest Music Direct catalog with one from 2006..., posted on February 11, 2017 at 14:16:16
PAR
 Don't understand your comment in the light of looking 5 - 10 years ahead. Please expand if I am missing something.

I see from your profile that your dCS Verdi gave up the ghost. If it was the optical unit of the transport (it's common) I have an unused genuine Sony OPU for it that you could have used (including dCS fitting instructions). What a pity that I see that it has been replaced. Oh well.

 

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