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comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12

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Posted on September 29, 2016 at 11:07:21
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Initially the AES3 was more extended in the highs(much more),with the I2S over HDMI cable still burning in(Viablue S-900),differences are smaller,but still clearly in the AES3's favor.I was expecting a different outcome.The AES3 cable is D110 ,M.Tunis terminated.

 

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RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 29, 2016 at 12:39:11
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 I wonder if there are transformers "isolating" (usually gnd passes through) the diff lines in the AES interface that aren't there with the I2S which could filter noise etc.???

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 29, 2016 at 13:06:02
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Good observation and /or wise pondering.
Whatever the cause,the sound is decidedly different,less so now than before,and still clearly in favor of the AES3.
As I listen with ML Vantage electrostats in a small room with a wooden floor and lots of damping,I prefer to keep on enjoying the resolution offered by the speakers.This resolution gets lost if the highs are rolled off.I should be able to get a handle on the relative merits of the respective cables within a few days.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 29, 2016 at 22:34:58
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi !
thanks a lot for confirming the AES/EBU as a very valuable option.
I have a low end system. However the best sound I have been able to get from my pc until now has been with

Gustard U12 > Canare AES/EBU cable > Apogee Rosetta 200

Lack of noise, dimension, detail were quite ok and with little fatigue.

Speaking of HDMI for I2S, it is a pity that a better connector has not been used.
I think that a premium quality rj45 for instance would be a much better option.
Moreover it would be very nice that all the manufacturers agree on a same pin-out, as I understand it is not the case.
I will stick with the AES/EBU from now on.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 01:14:19
motberg
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Joined: May 19, 2013
 Interesting results, I think this is the first I read a preference of AES over i2S... what length cable is the i2S ?

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 03:57:28
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Hi Beppe,It is not often that you find someone who uses Apogee products refer to their system as low end.So,either you have golden ears,are modest,are very demanding,or-all of the above.
I am a classical musician.Never had much money or even spare cash.But,for many reasons,I did channel relatively much of what I " did not have" into getting good sound.At some time,I decided to check out if digital sound could be livable,and bought an Apogee DAC and A to D.At around the same time a Deltec/DPA PDM1.3 came my way.I also had an MSB DAC-probably their entry level converter.I was fully expecting the Apogee to be head and shoulders above the others.As it turned out,after listening to the Deltec,there was no comparison,the Apogee sounded disappointing.Also the A to D was less good than the internal converter in my HHB-800.Sometimes surprises work in our favor,sometimes less so.Best,Raanan

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 04:18:46
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Both are 4 meters.I was able to make do with 50 cms. between the PC and the digital interface,but the interface is in another part of the (small) room,and I need the 4 meters.The system is a resolving one with ML Vantages,and a good 600 WPC amp,DPA double run of Black sixteen speaker cable,triple electrical filtering,a Tortuuga clone(Abacus Audio) passive pre with Teddy Pardo PS.I am totally surprised at the quality of audio available by using a PC. The AES3 cable is D110 cable from DH Labes terminated by Mark Tunis,the I2S is an HDMI cable from Viablue(S-900).I had previously used simple HDMI cable and the Viablue is noticeably better.The D110 is more open in the highs compared to the Apogee Wydeye that I previously used.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 04:24:01
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 The I2S cable is rolling off the highs somewhere between 8K-10K.The AES3 does not seem to be rolling off the highs.Other than that(Mrs. Lincoln,how did you enjoy the show?)the 2 cables seem to be treating the lows and mids quite similarly.I should know in a few days if the I2S cable burns in more and opens up in the highs.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 05:12:46
motberg
Audiophile

Posts: 66
Joined: May 19, 2013
 Thanks for the reply... I am not an EE, but my understanding is that i2S needs be as short as possible.. Although the HDMI version allows longer lengths than the RJ45 version, it seems from my casual reading that 1M is the maximum length normally suggested.. I have used 1M HDMI i2S OK when I was testing some configurations, but currently use a 0.3M from Wireworld.

Not sure if that is the cause of the roll-off you are experiencing, but it seems the AES would be the better option if you require the 4M cable length..

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 05:24:47
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Thanks.I also did some casual reading in order to enable others' experience to guide me in assessing whatever behavior the new cables would exhibit.The length considerations reported on by most posters had to do with the I2S struggling with the 1s and 0s when one exceeded a few meters,with resultant dropouts and quirky behavior.If there were only a way to shorten the distance between the digital interface -a U12 and the X12 DAC,but that would mean rearranging the room in such a way that any forward,backward or sidewards motion would be hopscotch or leapfrog,and for the time being,that is not an option.Actually,sound using the AES3 cable is surprisingly good and much more than I could have hoped for from a PC.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 09:29:45
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi !
actually with low end i was referring more to the part of the chain downstream the Apogee, for sure not a high resolution system.
The Apogee is one of the most expensive pieces i have.
I bought it used of course.
I see now that you have a much more resolving system that can show up differences more clearly.
I was using an integrated with some cheap Tannoy speakers, not the best one. However the sound was not very bad let's say.
Also the Rosetta has some kind of jitter reduction circuit inside, i think.
I have also a Gustard X20U by the way still boxed. Hopefully it will be better than the Apogee ?

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 09:54:20
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Beppe,We can all learn from your civility,gentleness and sympathic writing...sorry for the compliments in public!
People who take the time to write about their wordly audio possessions,apparently like the sound of the words-high end.Maybe it gives them the feeling that they possess something of consequence that justifies the financial expense and the investment of time in order to get better sound.Certainly the term high end itself was invented by dealers as a way of separating people from their money.
We discover that sometimes one can get good sound for little money,and sometimes there is no alternative to making a financial effort.
In any case,it is rare to come across the term low end.One does encounter-"mid -fi."If I am not mistaken-lower down the chain would be either South,or downstream or whatever.
I found that placing polycrystal cones under the X12 gave good results in providing a bit more resolution.Only a few dozen hours on it,so it may still get better.If you have a U12,then there might be synergy with the DAC.But ,of course it is worth comparing the USB input of the DAC with using the interface.Is the Melodious better than the U12?In which ways?

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 10:13:43
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi !
lately i have come to the conclusion that the listening room can be a very limiting factor. This is my case and so i am now listening mostly through headphones. As i am about to go back home i am packing my things and i have not tested the Gustard.

However in my system and with my ears not big differences between the Gustard U12 and the Melodious 1st version. The sound was very very similar.

As i understand the X12 is good i hope the X20 will be similarly good.
But i was not offended at all by the Apogee.

I like very much the ML sound. But first the room.
Kind regards.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 10:27:28
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Beppe,Of course you are right.I have had less(far less) than ideal rooms for the last 30 years.An L shaped living room that caused a 10 db suckout between 115-290 cps,and nothing helped.Or small rooms that did not enable anything resembling a soundstage.Now,newly married,whenever my wife is home,I listen with earphones-LCD-2.They are good,and even going from the PC to a Schiit Mjolnir,gives very good sound.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 11:46:12
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Yes, the I2S cable, both RJ45 and HDMI need to be very short I use a wireworld HDMI cable which is .3meters between my Singzer and Master 7
Alan

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 11:48:35
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I have both a U12 and Melodious. The Melodious has a fuller richer sound The differences are small. I now use a Singzer converter. The differences are major
Alan

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 14:47:58
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 Thanks,Alan.Which model Singxer?

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on September 30, 2016 at 15:15:15
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 The Singzer SU-1
Alan

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on October 1, 2016 at 01:43:38
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi again !

" Beppe,Of course you are right.I have had less(far less) than ideal rooms for the last 30 years. An L shaped living room that caused a 10 db suckout between 115-290 cps,and nothing helped. Or small rooms that did not enable anything resembling a soundstage. Now,newly married,whenever my wife is home,I listen with earphones-LCD-2. They are good,and even going from the PC to a Schiit Mjolnir,gives very good sound "

Thanks for the valuable advice and I could not agree more.
It took me a while to realize how important is the listening room.
And the realization was very painful. Few can afford a room to dedicate to audio listening and treat it.
This is the only way to give the opportunity to a system to show its true potential.
Moreover this realization has been for me a show stopper in the equipment upgrade process.
There is no reason to spend thousands on equipment when the room itself is not up to the task.
I know from friends' experience that a decent stereo system in a great room will sound better than a great system in a not decent room.
And the fact that I have neighbors extremely silent and that I listen a lot late in the evenings forced me towards headphones.
Honestly I cannot say that I am completely satisfied by listening thorugh HPs.
Even if I use mostly AKG and the sound is quite out of the head is never in front of me, like it should naturally.
The listening is not natural and this leads to a fatigue in the long term. A discomfort.
At present I am packing things hoping in a better future location.
For me 3D soundstage rendering is everything and listening room characteristics and acoustic treatment are key to get a decent performance on this regard.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on October 1, 2016 at 09:01:49
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2912
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 I don't know how much merit there is to the argument but at least one manufacturer feels the need to add isolation on the I2S on their version of xmos USB to I2S.

Though I'm wondering if the goal is removing the nonideal electrical response of a poorly laid out i2s bus, then putting the isolation physically closer to the dac end of the cable rather than the processor end of the cable would be more optimal in dealing with emi problems related to the i2s cable and board traces electrical lengths and loop areas.

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on October 1, 2016 at 10:10:53
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 It is important to keep the I2S cable as short as possible. My HDMI cable is .3 meter
Alan

 

RE: comparing I2S vs. AES3 with Gustard U12+X12, posted on October 1, 2016 at 10:32:48
r17
Audiophile

Posts: 1044
Location: Jerusalem,Israel
Joined: July 26, 2005
 I can relate to this.My Viablue S-900 hdmi,which carries I2S between a U12 and an X12, is 4 meters long.It sounds like a quality cable-only that it is clearly attenuating highs above 8000 or 10000 cps.Resolution is affected(soundstage,etc.) sound has no "edge"-otherwise very similar to the AES3 cable,which seems to be quite good-D110 by DH labs terminated by Mark Tunis.Reading up on the subject of HDMI cables,I was aware only of the need not to surpass 5 meters,but was not aware of the need to keep the cable as short as possible.The trigger was pulled too early,as I was itching to compare the AES3 already in place with the I2S which most claimed to sound better than AES3.

 

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