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Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition

74.215.187.197
Posted on August 4, 2016 at 07:54:40
Gordon Rankin
Manufacturer

Posts: 2928
Joined: June 9, 2000
 All,

Warning Microsoft damaged the USB drivers in Windows 10 Anniversary edition and everyone is complaining about BAD SOUND.

We have contacted the Windows Sound group and they are aware of the problem.

Thanks and you can go back to your regularly scheduled programming!
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin

 

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RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 07:59:44
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Greatly appreciated Gordon. Thank you!!!

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 08:58:18
DHMC
Audiophile

Posts: 36
Location: Toronto
Joined: September 10, 2002
 http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/manage-windows-update-windows-10/

 

Thanks for the PSA..., posted on August 4, 2016 at 10:53:13
Chris Garrett
Bored Member

Posts: 16675
Location: Miami, Florida
Joined: October 9, 1999
Contributor
  Since: June 19, 2000
 but I'm sticking with Win 7~64 and my rebuilt Gen. IV iPod.

Chris



 

I upgraded and the audio sounds just fine. , posted on August 4, 2016 at 11:29:49
scruffy_
Audiophile

Posts: 1665
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: August 5, 2005
 Can you be more specific on what the "bad sound" sounds like? Is it that the result of higher latencies due to the upgraded USB drivers?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Humility is the true mark of genius. Just get used to it."
-Anonymous

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 12:11:50
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 I see people having issues with the DragonFly that uses the Windows 10 USB driver with the new Anniversary update. They did update the Windows driver. I suspect that many of us that use the drivers provided by manufacturers of DACs should have no issues. I hope :-)

 

RE: Thanks for the PSA..., posted on August 4, 2016 at 13:07:26
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 I compared 8.1 x64 with 10 Pro and the former sounds better. W10 has a more pronounced hf but is somewhat woolly in the bass. This is with the same music on the same computer on the same drive.

There are so many things that need sorting in W10 by way of privacy and of the need to remove features on an audio machine' that the whole thing seems too much of a hassle to me. With 8.1, these things are much more straightforward.

 

RE: Thanks for the PSA..., posted on August 4, 2016 at 13:49:32
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Windows 8.x was Microsoft's rushed red headed stepchild. Sounds like Chris is much better off sticking to his Windows 7.



 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 14:42:33
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 Is this some special addition you have to buy, or do I need to be concerned that it will just update itself?

My PC came with 10, my exe's had 7 or 8 on it. Last Fall I had put JRiver on it for her, and loaded some music. I got a pop up saying an update was ready/needed, I hit start and ended up loading 10 on her laptop.I think she is alright with it, as I would have heard otherwise. And she doesn't care about sound quality.

I also have been getting a notice from Toshiba that my bios are out of date. So far I haven't done it, as I am not sure what it is. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 14:59:53
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 "BIOS (basic input/output system) is the program a personal computer's microprocessor uses to get the computer system started after you turn it on. It also manages data flow between the computer's operating system and attached devices such as the hard disk, video adapter, keyboard, mouse and printer."

Updating the bios can improve the function of your computer. If things are working well for you, it probably isn't necessary. I updated my bios on my Asus a number of times and it did improve network performance among other things going from 8.1 to 10.

If you have Windows 10 Home, the update is automatic. Pro can be delayed, but I have installed it on my non-music computers and it was easy and uneventful.

 

RE: Thanks! Nt, posted on August 4, 2016 at 17:11:35
Jeff Starr
Audiophile

Posts: 1574
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Joined: March 4, 2000
 ;-)

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 18:01:29
PAR
 " If you have Windows 10 Home, the update is automatic"

Users of Win10 Home can prevent automatic updates by going to settings/wifi/advanced and selecting metered connection.No choice for wired connection though.

One other bad thing with updates in Win 10 is that specific updates cannot necessarily be selected. For example my choice today for updates is a definitions update for Windows Defender ( which I want) and Win 10 Anniversary edition ( Version 1607) which I don't. I cannot have one without the other.

 

Wowsers! That's a heapin' helpin' of FUD!, posted on August 4, 2016 at 18:10:11
Jaundiced Ear
 Even an Inmate Oracle should provide some sort of substantiation for such dramatic claims.

"Warning Microsoft damaged the USB drivers in Windows 10 Anniversary edition..."

Could you please expand on this? How are the drivers broken? How do you know they are broken? How is it Microsoft did not notice they were broken before shipping the Update?

"and everyone is complaining..."

Really, "everyone?" How can you possibly know what "everyone" is doing? I've installed the Anniversary Update and it sounds fine to me. Then again, I don't use Wavelength Audio products.

"about BAD SOUND."

What exactly does "BAD SOUND" mean? Excessive hiss? Fuzzy sound? Loss of bass? Or are we talking about how the rear of the sound stage is suddenly six inches narrower? Is the new distortion, whatever it might be, consistent between various PCs and components?

"We have contacted the Windows Sound group and they are aware of the problem."

That is kind of you and much appreciated by us end users. Your statement does gloss over a point: was Microsoft aware of the issue(s) before you contacted them and so knowingly shipped broken software, or do you mean that Microsoft is now aware that your company has a complaint?

JE

 

It's not FUD..., posted on August 4, 2016 at 18:28:42
Doublej
Audiophile

Posts: 678
Location: Boston
Joined: January 11, 2009
 ...when it's true. Don't want to believe us, install the update and hear for yourself.

Is sounds H O R R I B L E ! ! !

Along with a bunch of other stupid UI "improvements" that are a step backwards.

Way to go Microsoft. Just when they were making traction gaining back some credibility they lost with Windows 8 and the other bonehead moves they made, they deliver this garbage update.

Some companies never learn.

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 18:28:56
Jaundiced Ear
 One of the complaints about Windows 10 was that you begin to lose control over what software is installed on your PC. There are ways to hack your PC to delay restarts indefinitely, but as you point out, there is no way to differentiate between upgrades you want at a later date and upgrades you want now.

JE

 

Come on, help me out here., posted on August 4, 2016 at 18:44:19
Jaundiced Ear
 "Is sounds H O R R I B L E ! ! !"

That is a judgement, not a description. Surely if something "Is sounds H O R R I B L E ! ! !" there must be myriad ways in which it fails to deliver full fidelity. Could you please describe some of these ways? Please, be specific and tell me what exactly makes these issues objectionable.

"Along with a bunch of other stupid UI "improvements" that are a step backwards."

Just out of idle curiosity, could you point out a few of these?

JE

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 19:42:16
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 You can uninstall update- for a short time- I think?

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 4, 2016 at 21:23:02
PAR
 " I suspect that many of us that use the drivers provided by manufacturers of DACs should have no issues. I hope :-)"

Maybe you could help me here. When I use my music file replay software (JRiver MC as it happens) I am using DAC mfgs kernel streaming and I am using my DAC manufacturer's USB driver for USB 2. However when I listen to streamed radio I am using the station's on line player in my browser and that routes to the Windows sound engine. Would I then be using the Windows USB driver or the DAC manufacturer's bearing in mind that the computer/DAC physical interface is the same in both cases?

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 5, 2016 at 01:59:49
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Joined: January 18, 2002
 Who knows what these guys are talking about with USB driver "sounding bad". (Just bad sound? Does this mess up other forms of data transfers!? With what DAC?)

Kernel Streaming, WASAPI, ASIO are typically all bit-perfect when configured properly. Your DAC's manufacturer driver should maintain that "bit-perfectness" whether it's Windows 8/10/10AR as you suggest.

When playing off Windows as you're doing with the streaming radio, you'll then be playing off the Windows audio stack with the typical mixer, resampling and dithering processing as applied with whatever settings you have.

Both will utilize the USB drivers.

Just have a listen and let us know if you think anything changed...

-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 5, 2016 at 04:01:46
PAR
 Many thanks for your answer. Just for clarification , should the sentence " Both will utilize the USB drivers." read " Both will utilize the same USB drivers."?

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 5, 2016 at 05:27:44
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Joined: January 18, 2002
 Hi PAR. Both will utilize the same low level USB drivers to hit the interface hardware ultimately.

Looking around, I think the issue is that the Windows' update may have messed with the "USB Audio" 1.0 driver such that "driverless" USB DACs like the Dragonfly that top out at 24/96 might have playback issues.

If this is the issue, then this subject should have been more specific rather than a general suggestion that there's something wrong with the USB drivers. Those of us using custom USB audio device drivers should not be affected.
-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 5, 2016 at 05:45:16
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 There is no such thing as a Windows upgrade. You're just going from a pile of crap to an even bigger pile of crap.

 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 5, 2016 at 07:23:40
Archimago
Audiophile

Posts: 821
Joined: January 18, 2002
 Hi Bill:
Yeah, I should have said "update" rather than "upgrade". I agree, no guarantee that it makes it actually any better...

However, as a user who has gone through the evolution of various GUI-based OS'es from the old days of Commodore 64 GEOS, AmigaOS, Windows iterations, Sun Solaris, BeOS, the promise and stagnation of Linux on the desktop, and 5 years using Mac OS X for my work machine, I gotta say Windows 10 isn't bad at all.

Stability is decent. It's open (eg. how's FLAC support on the Mac?). And has all the mature software I need (unlike Linux).

-------
Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.

 

RE: It's not FUD..., posted on August 5, 2016 at 13:11:37
Doublej
Audiophile

Posts: 678
Location: Boston
Joined: January 11, 2009
 After upgrading I was watching a video and wanted to turn to increase the volume because it wasn't loud enough and sounded thin yet when I went to turn up the volume it was already maxed out!

On the UI side Microsoft is continuing to incrementally graft a Windows 8 style guide onto the existing Windows 7 UI.

This sucks for two reasons. First it's bit by bit so on any given graphic element it could be either old or new design.

Second Windows 8 was designed for a devices having a lot less horsepower than a desktop or notebook computer. So IMHO the Window 8 style guide is a step backwards.

But there are not any great alternatives. You could pay 3X the price for a Macintosh, you could pay a little less for a Chromebook that does a lot less or you could run a desktop Unix flavor if you have a degree and interest in computer science.

I think Microsoft is one price cut away from losing the majority of the consumer market. That price cut would be a really ballsy move from Apple and an admission that Apple's future profit growth is from services like icloud and their app store which I believe it is.



 

RE: It's not FUD..., posted on August 5, 2016 at 18:48:26
Jaundiced Ear
 "After upgrading I was watching a video and wanted to turn to increase the volume because it wasn't loud enough and sounded thin yet when I went to turn up the volume it was already maxed out!"

I confess to knowing little about video playback, but perhaps if you posted more information, such as what software you are using, how it is configured, as well as how Windows is configured, the Asylum may be able to help you out.

I recommend you post your issue in a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in this one.

One thing people overlook about Apple computers is that while they are a small fraction of the overall market, they represent the majority of the profits generated in that market. Why on earth would Apple want to shoot that Golden Goose by cutting prices? So long as enough people are happy to buy Macs at Apple's prices, and so far there seems to be, Apple would be crazy to force itself to build more products to generate the same profits.

All the Best!

JE

 

With all respect..., posted on August 5, 2016 at 21:02:37
Jaundiced Ear
 have YOU installed the Anniversary Update?

If you have, do you agree with Gordon Rankin that it results in BAD SOUND?

If you do, could you please use your reviewer's ears to tell the Asylum what exactly it does to create the BAD SOUND?

Thanks in advance!

JE

P.S. Waving a white flag here. I don't recollect your mentioning Lucy in a while. I hope she is doing well?

 

Windows 10 Anniversary Edition Installed- no problem ( so far), posted on August 6, 2016 at 07:10:14
PAR
 Unfortunately Windows 10 anniversary has now downloaded to my music PC without my noticing despite my precautions. I found out when I went to shut the computer off and got the "install upgrades and power off" option message.

Well I do use my DAC manufacturer's USB driver and there seems to be no degradation whatsoever to the sound further to the upgrade installation. The only negative issue ( so far :-)) was that the upgrade flipped the USB selection on my DAC for some arcane reason which I had to reset (a press of a button).

Of course ymmv.

 

RE: Thanks for the PSA..., posted on August 6, 2016 at 09:11:45
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 Typical IT folklore, knowing very little about audio from computers.

 

RE: Thanks for the PSA..., posted on August 6, 2016 at 10:46:31
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Funny. The conversation is about Windows 10 and you go rambling off topic recommending Windows 8.1, Microsoft's botched red headed stepchild that everyone would rather bury and forget!

Speaking of audio from computers, how's that beastly 39-Lb "Power PC" of yours working out for you? You say the "audio sounds very good indeed", but can you actually hear anything over it's noisy CPU and power supply blowers?



 

RE: With all respect..., posted on August 6, 2016 at 18:22:47
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Yes I have installed the update. I hear no difference listening to a microRendu with the updated computer as the Core with Roon.

I haven't tried the Analog DAC yet driven directly via USB, but it has a new Windows 10 driver. I think Gordon was referring to products that use the native Windows USB driver.

My amps and preamp won't be back from Ayre until next week, so I am limited to headphones.

Lucy is as good as ever. Thanks for asking.

 

Thanks for the reply, posted on August 6, 2016 at 19:39:21
Jaundiced Ear
 and I'm happy to read that Lucy is doing fine!

JE

 

Update, posted on August 9, 2016 at 13:42:36
Gordon Rankin
Manufacturer

Posts: 2928
Joined: June 9, 2000
 All,

So first there were 2 problems that we experienced. 1 was UAC1 with the Microsoft internal drivers and volume over 70% seem to distort the audio output signal to the extent of not being usable.

The other seemed to effect both UAC1 and UAC2 devices and had to do with the FEEDBACK pipe. Some experienced pops and clicks indicating the feedback pipe for asynchronous devices was not working. Others heard one big pop and then their device would stop working all together.

~~~~~
Good news, there is an update:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3176495

Thanks,
Gordon

J. Gordon Rankin

 

RE: Update, posted on August 10, 2016 at 11:16:05
Old Listener
Audiophile

Posts: 2090
Location: SF Bay area
Joined: February 6, 2005
 Thanks, Gordon for the OP and this update.

I'm into a cycle of updating PC, NAS and backup gear so your posts are very relevant to me.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/

 

RE: Update, posted on August 10, 2016 at 12:07:13
Mercman
Audiophile

Posts: 6581
Location: So. CA
Joined: October 20, 2002
 Thanks Gordon-much appreciated.

 

RE: Update, posted on August 13, 2016 at 10:24:33
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Good info. Thanks Gordon. Windows is not my primary setup for audio but I still like to be informed on such matters.

As an aside, I recall seeing a techie oriented video clip by Microsoft targeted toward developers around the time they were launching Windows 10. There was a segment in the video where they talked about focusing on some enhancements that would improve Windows 10 audio. Wish I still had the link to that video clip. It was very long as they covered many topics of interest to Windows developers but I found the segment on audio most interesting.

Why anyone would cling to Windows 8.x at this point is beyond me. That was a rushed kludge that most of us wish to forget. Even though I'm not a huge Windows fan, I find Windows 10 to be pretty darn good.


 

RE: Do not upgrade to Windows 10 Anniversary Edition, posted on August 13, 2016 at 10:45:36
Windows X
Manufacturer

Posts: 209
Location: Thailand
Joined: February 28, 2011
 Thank you for informing us this. I'm using USB audio with custom driver so it didn't cross my mind.

Regards,
Keetakawee

 

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